Author Topic: Contradictions Knoch's work?  (Read 2348 times)

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Offline WhiteWings

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Contradictions Knoch's work?
« on: August 09, 2010, 07:21:57 PM »
http://www.1john57.com/universalistfaq.htm
I can't quote the article here because without formatting it's unreadeble.

The article is pointing out contradictions in CLT and other works from Knoch.
As usual the focus is on eon. But this time it's about the number of eons (according to Knoch)
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline jabcat

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Re: Contradictions Knoch's work?
« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2010, 06:51:40 AM »
This guy's extremely orthodox conservative.  He has issues with MANY things.  I'd think he very much dislikes Knoch and his translation.  (Isn't he an AV1611 guy?)  

Quoting Gary A and Tony N in this post you posted some time back Tony;

"The Bible speaks of at least 5 "aions" and perhaps many more. If there were "aions" in the past. This must mean that each one of them have ended for they are now past! The New Testament writers spoke of "the present wicked aion" which ended during that very generation. Obviously, it was followed by another "aion"-- the "aion" in which we presently live. If there are "aions" to come, it must mean that this one we live in will also end."


http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=6935.msg77454#msg77454
« Last Edit: August 10, 2010, 06:55:29 AM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline Pierac

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Re: Contradictions Knoch's work?
« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2010, 07:15:33 AM »
http://www.1john57.com/universalistfaq.htm
I can't quote the article here because without formatting it's unreadeble.

The article is pointing out contradictions in CLT and other works from Knoch.
As usual the focus is on eon. But this time it's about the number of eons (according to Knoch)

Too bad that JOHN WESLEY HANSON eats his lunch!!!  Really... it's embarrassing! 

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html

Paul

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Contradictions Knoch's work?
« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2010, 07:46:13 AM »
James, Paul,

Sure the guy is a devoted KJV-1611 ET. His 'works' have be discussed/refuted earlier on TM.
But I posted this article because it's different from his other stuff.
Surely he starts with saying the KJV translation is perfect. But his focus is on something else in this article.
Basicly his argument is this: (numbers purely as an example)
Knoch speaks of 2 ages between certain events. But Jesus spoke of at least 4 ages.
So Knoch's view on the number ages contradics Jesus. (and his own work)
So according to that guy Knoch isn't only wrong about teh duration of an aion but also about the number of aions in case they exist.
That's how read his article
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline jabcat

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Re: Contradictions Knoch's work?
« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2010, 08:01:07 AM »
I tried to find the 4 ages Jesus spoke of in what you posted.  Perhaps in the portion that wouldn't copy/paste?

Showing my ignorance, what did Jesus say about 4 ages and where?  If He said that, and Knoch says 2, then I'd also say Knoch was wrong about that particular thing.

As far as the duration, I'd say Knoch is right and Don Hewey's wrong...again, I like the link to your post of Gary and Tony's on that topic.   :thumbsup:
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Contradictions Knoch's work?
« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2010, 08:23:23 AM »

Here is the next problem that we have here with the CLNT:
 
John 6:51 I am the living Bread which descends out of heaven. If anyone should be eating of this Bread, he shall be living for the eon. Now the Bread also, which I shall be giving for the sake of the life of the world, is My flesh."
 
Do I understand this correctly here?  THE eon.  Is this the same eon where marriage is also existing also?  But wait a minute here, Jesus is clearly talking about the living bread that is clearly eternal and endless, is this not true?  1Timothy 6:16 clearly shows that ONLY The Son is immortal.  Immortal is clearly eternal.
 
Furthermore in John 17:
 
21 that they may all be one, according as Thou, Father, art in Me, and I in Thee, that they also may be in Us, that the world should be believing that Thou dost commission Me.
22 "And I have given them the glory which Thou has given Me, that they may be one, according as We are One,
 
....the clnt clearly teaches that the Father is in Jesus and Jesus is in the Father who is endless and eternal.  Verse 21 also clearly shows that the resurrected believer in Christ is also ONE with the Father AND the Son.  This clearly contradicts John 6:51, for the Father is clearly BEYOND "...living for the eon."
 
How does one observe "the eons"?  What does the eon look like?  Taste like? Smell like?  Feel like?  I did not realize that time could be seen.  However, the world can be seen as the KJV states.
 
Hebrews 11:3 By faith we are apprehending the eons to adjust to a declaration of God, so that what is being observed has not come out of what is appearing.
 
 
 
And how about this one:
 
Hebrews 7: 24 yet that One, because of His remaining for the eon, has an inviolate priesthood.
 
Jesus is remaining for the eon?  Remember this is the same exact terminology used to describe how mankind is marrying.  Is Jesus dead right now?  If not, where is He right this very minute?  Does Jesus Christ still remain after the first earth is destroyed by fire as talked about in 2 Peter?  Does Jesus also remain way way after the new heavens and the new earth wherein only dwells righteousness in 2 Peter as well?  Hmmmmm.
 What Knoch will fail to admit because he cannot affort to admit this, is that there is a "aion" that is infinite as described in Revelation 22.  I counted at least three "eons" before what Jesus spoke of regarding marriage.  Knoch used the singular of eon.  That is pure error.  What scripture is telling us is that there is one WORLD which is of course the one that we are living in now.  Then the SECOND world is the one without sin and is without marriage.  Knoch cannot reconcile his blunder.  You used the correct translation by using "eons" HOWEVER the greek scripture in that verse is in the singular.  Hence the error.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Tony N

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Re: Contradictions Knoch's work?
« Reply #6 on: June 26, 2012, 06:48:44 PM »
Quote
Here is the next problem that we have here with the CLNT:
 
John 6:51 I am the living Bread which descends out of heaven. If anyone should be eating of this Bread, he shall be living for the eon. Now the Bread also, which I shall be giving for the sake of the life of the world, is My flesh."
 
Do I understand this correctly here?  THE eon.  Is this the same eon where marriage is also existing also?  But wait a minute here, Jesus is clearly talking about the living bread that is clearly eternal and endless, is this not true?  1Timothy 6:16 clearly shows that ONLY The Son is immortal.  Immortal is clearly eternal.

Yes, "for the eon" is correct. The Greek says literally: "eis ton aiona" εις  τον αιωνα   or "into the eon." Young's Literal has "he shall live to the age." In the next eon, called the millennium or 1000 years, we will live THROUGH the duration of that eon and not have to worry about dying. When that eon ends, and it surely will since we are told that when the thousand years ends (Rev. 20:3) that another eon comes which is the new earth eon. Even if we said "live for ever" the "ever" should not be construed to mean "unendingly" since the Bible shows us that all the eons are said to end. Therefore all the "evers" in "for ever" must end as well. That would suck to have ever-lasting life and have the ever end, wouldn't it? But to have eonian life (life pertaining to the eons and at the same time we know we will "put on immortality" (1 Cor.15) so that when the eons end, we will continue to live since we have immortality.

 
Quote
Furthermore in John 17:
 
21 that they may all be one, according as Thou, Father, art in Me, and I in Thee, that they also may be in Us, that the world should be believing that Thou dost commission Me.
22 "And I have given them the glory which Thou has given Me, that they may be one, according as We are One,
 
....the clnt clearly teaches that the Father is in Jesus and Jesus is in the Father who is endless and eternal.  Verse 21 also clearly shows that the resurrected believer in Christ is also ONE with the Father AND the Son.  This clearly contradicts John 6:51, for the Father is clearly BEYOND "...living for the eon."
Well, as shocking as this may sound, the Bible does not really say God and Jesus are eternal. We just take it for granted they are since they confer immortality upon us later. The one who wrote John 17:21 died almost two thousand years ago. John was one with Jesus and the Father. He was not trying to suggest that being one with the Father and the Son automatically confers immortality upon that individual. But that they were one in purpose.
 
Quote
How does one observe "the eons"?  What does the eon look like?  Taste like? Smell like?  Feel like?  I did not realize that time could be seen.  However, the world can be seen as the KJV states.
 
Hebrews 11:3 By faith we are apprehending the eons to adjust to a declaration of God, so that what is being observed has not come out of what is appearing.

Obviously the person does not understand the term "apprehending." Apprehending has to do with the mind and understanding, i.e. thought processes. The writer of Hebrews 11:3 is suggesting that what is appearing, i.e. the thrusting aside of Israel and grace being given to the nations apart from Israel came due to God adjusting the eons. The apostle Paul called this adjustment a "secret" and that this will continue until the complement of the nations enters per Romans 11:25,26. If the eons were not adjusted then Christ would have come back and set up the millennial reign almost two thousand years ago.
 
 
 
Quote
And how about this one:
 
Hebrews 7: 24 yet that One, because of His remaining for the eon, has an inviolate priesthood.
 
Jesus is remaining for the eon?  Remember this is the same exact terminology used to describe how mankind is marrying.  Is Jesus dead right now?  If not, where is He right this very minute?  Does Jesus Christ still remain after the first earth is destroyed by fire as talked about in 2 Peter?  Does Jesus also remain way way after the new heavens and the new earth wherein only dwells righteousness in 2 Peter as well?  Hmmmmm.
 What Knoch will fail to admit because he cannot affort to admit this, is that there is a "aion" that is infinite as described in Revelation 22.  I counted at least three "eons" before what Jesus spoke of regarding marriage.  Knoch used the singular of eon.  That is pure error.  What scripture is telling us is that there is one WORLD which is of course the one that we are living in now.  Then the SECOND world is the one without sin and is without marriage.  Knoch cannot reconcile his blunder.  You used the correct translation by using "eons" HOWEVER the greek scripture in that verse is in the singular.  Hence the error.

First of all Revelation 22 does not describe aion as infinite. An infinite age is a contradiction in terms. The person is obviously confused. The phrase in Revelation 22 "eons of the eons" is speaking of "near the end of the 1000 year eon and the duration of the new earth eon." They are the two greatest eons out of all the eons which went before. Also, if the Greek has the singular "aion" then Knoch had to put the singular "eon" in the translation. It is not a matter of him making a mistake.

Secondly, Concerning Hebrews 7:23 I will quote the Concordant Commentary: "If the Melchizedek priesthood should last forever (instead of for the eon) then it too, would come under the condemnation of never bringing anything to perfection or finality. Then there would be a temple and priesthood on the new earth; indeed, it would continue beyond the consummation, and form an insurmountable barrier between God and some of His creatures. Priesthood is a sign of estrangement; it vanishes when God is at peace with His people. Hence, though the Lord's life is indissoluble (7:16) and the priesthood inviolate (7:24), unbroken by death, it is always limited to one eon, beyond which there can be no priesthood, because there is no estrangement."

And this is from Unsearchable Riches magazing:
"It is evident, therefore, that the continuance of the Aaronic priesthood was a badge of its futility. Is the Melchisedec order likewise inefficient? Or does this priesthood accomplish its object? How long is the duration of the Melchisedec reign of Christ? Six passages bring before us the duration of the priesthood of our Lord, Jesus Christ. For the A.V. it is always "for ever" or "for evermore." The CONCORDANT VERSION follows
Heb.  5: 6; 7:17,21 Thou art a priest  for the eon
             According to the order of Melchisedec.
       6:20  Chief Priest according to the order of Melchisedec
              for the eon.
       7:24  because He is remaining  for the eon,  has an
             inviolate priesthood
         28  For the law is constituting men chief priests who
             have infirmity, yet the word sworn in the oath
             which is after the law, the Son, perfected  for the
             eon.


     "This phrase "for the eon" is in contrast to that at the end of the epistle, where glory is ascribed to Jesus Christ "for the eons of the eons" (Heb.13:21). He has many glories. Two of these are of special note. He is Priest and King. A priest is appointed to represent the people before God, and is only needed in the presence of sin, while mankind is at a distance from God. Priesthood vanishes in the new creation, just as rule itself is abrogated at the consummation of the eons. If the priesthood of Christ were like that under the law, in which the people were ever brought nigh, but never near, then it would be lacking its chief excellence. That is, that it carries through (dieenekes) its object, and makes priesthood needless, for all can then approach the Deity.

    " As priests, the saints reign with Christ a thousand years. As kings, their rule is associated with His for the whole day of God, which follows the day of Jehovah. So that the Melchisedec priesthood of Christ is literally "for the eon," and yet His reign as the Son of God goes on throughout the eon which follows. His priesthood is for but one eon, His kingdom for two. And the greatest glory of each is that He accomplishes the object for which they exist. He brings men so near to God that no priest is needed. He rules so effectively and subordinates the race to God so completely that no further rule is desirable. Then, and not till then, He hands over all to God, Himself being crowned only with the amaranthine halo of humility." (A. E. Knoch Unsearchable Riches vol.25)

I have no idea what he is saying concerning what Jesus said about marriage and its relationship to the eon. "Mat 22:30 For in the resurrection neither are they marrying nor taking in marriage, but are as messengers of God in heaven."

If this does not help, please let me know.
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Contradictions Knoch's work?
« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2012, 07:26:57 PM »
Quote from: TonyN
Yes, "for the eon" is correct. The Greek says literally: "eis ton aiona" εις  τον αιωνα   or "into the eon." Young's Literal has "he shall live to the age." In the next eon, called the millennium or 1000 years, we will live THROUGH the duration of that eon and not have to worry about dying.
Imo "into" doesn't mean "completely".
For me into the aion can me the first hour of that aion. The first 100 years. Or any duration.

 :dontknow:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Tony N

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Re: Contradictions Knoch's work?
« Reply #8 on: June 26, 2012, 08:13:07 PM »
Quote
Imo "into" doesn't mean "completely".
For me into the aion can me the first hour of that aion. The first 100 years. Or any duration.

True. An eon can either be part of a remaining eon or a full eon.

When a judge condemns a man to prison he may say "I condemn you for the decade. You will get out in 2020." That would be 8 years.

What I don't see, which you proclaim, is that if they are one with the Father and Son that Knoch contradicts John 6:51 by translating "live for the eon". How so?

Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Contradictions Knoch's work?
« Reply #9 on: June 26, 2012, 08:19:21 PM »
I proclaim nothing. It's not my website/article. I just posted it here for discussion.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Tony N

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Re: Contradictions Knoch's work?
« Reply #10 on: June 26, 2012, 08:55:05 PM »
can you tell me whose web site you got it from? Never mimd, I notice it is 1stJohn5_7's site.

Why on earth would you post anything from there to this site? He hates Universalists and anything related to that. I have dealt with him at length before. He is a King James Only person as well.
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline Tony N

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Re: Contradictions Knoch's work?
« Reply #11 on: June 26, 2012, 09:02:03 PM »
This guy's extremely orthodox conservative.  He has issues with MANY things.  I'd think he very much dislikes Knoch and his translation.  (Isn't he an AV1611 guy?) 

Quoting Gary A and Tony N in this post you posted some time back Tony;

"The Bible speaks of at least 5 "aions" and perhaps many more. If there were "aions" in the past. This must mean that each one of them have ended for they are now past! The New Testament writers spoke of "the present wicked aion" which ended during that very generation. Obviously, it was followed by another "aion"-- the "aion" in which we presently live. If there are "aions" to come, it must mean that this one we live in will also end."


http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=6935.msg77454#msg77454

I may have said most of the above quote but I would not have written this: "The New Testament writers spoke of "the present wicked aion" which ended during that very generation." I believe we are still in the present wicked eon.
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Contradictions Knoch's work?
« Reply #12 on: June 26, 2012, 09:07:52 PM »
can you tell me whose web site you got it from? Never mimd, I notice it is 1stJohn5_7's site.

Why on earth would you post anything from there to this site? He hates Universalists and anything related to that. I have dealt with him at length before. He is a King James Only person as well.
Because this is the "Arguments Against Universal Salvation" section.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Tony N

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Re: Contradictions Knoch's work?
« Reply #13 on: June 27, 2012, 05:46:05 PM »
Bingo! Thank you!

My personal opinion of that 1jn57 guy is he is a few sandwiches shy of a picnic.
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Contradictions Knoch's work?
« Reply #14 on: June 27, 2012, 09:41:28 PM »
I don't know that expression but I can image it's not flattering :-)
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...