Author Topic: Col. 1: 20 is conditional salvation.  (Read 5154 times)

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PaoloNuevo

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Col. 1: 20 is conditional salvation.
« on: August 24, 2011, 10:07:42 AM »
Because in verse 23


23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.



it states that we have to hold on to our faith, and that is our only WORK the work of believing in Jesus Christ;

John 6:29

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

 29Jesus answered and said to them, `This is the work of God, that ye may believe in him whom He did send.'


Therefore Col. 1: 20 does not state that all WILL be saved, but all who believe and only those who hold on to the faith will be saved.

Ok Refute!   :icon_joker:

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Col. 1: 20 is conditional salvation.
« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2011, 10:58:34 AM »
Col 1:20 isn't about saved but reconciled.

Saved from what?
If someone isn't saved from the 2nd death doesn't mean s/he won't be reconciled.

Besides of that "work" of believing is the work of HS.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Nathan

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Re: Col. 1: 20 is conditional salvation.
« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2011, 04:48:18 PM »
If you want to live in God's love "under conditions", that's totally fine, but I'm not so sure doing it is something God requires.  Love is unconditional.  Salvation is a gift motivated by that love.  So, if the love is unconditional, how can it be that the gift of salvation is not?  Now, on the other hand, I still would continue to add, because people think that believing in UR is still a free pass to live a godless life now cuz we're all saved in the end . . .a totally selfish perspective as far as I'm concerned and it reveals who it is in those people that's truly doing the talking . . .and it ain't the Spirit of God that's in them.  But truth is, there are consequences for our actions.  That might be what's confusing the matter about "conditions". 

Like . . ."I can stay dry "under the condition" that I avoid getting caught in the rain.  That's really not how salvation works, by "conditions" salvation "is" an unconditional gift poured out of unconditional love.  But should we choose to live by "our" selfish choices, it's not conditions that come into play, it's consequences.  I can be dry, I can be wet . . .there's no condemnation in either one, but there are consequences.  If being wet is a bad thing and I choose to run outside in a down pour . . .the consequences are, I'm gonna get wet.  That's how this realm works . . .by consequences. 

Salvation is still there for us to abide in, it's not a condition that we must accept before we die so afterwards we won't go to hell . . .Salvation is an enablement of forgiving power and a release of heavenly promises for me NOW . . .if I don't give the invitation, the consequences are, I continue going through this life bound and controlled by carnality in me.

Offline thinktank

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Re: Col. 1: 20 is conditional salvation.
« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2011, 10:18:21 PM »
what if that carnality continues after death?

If one is not saved now, they will continually sink lower and lower, that even death cannot stop it, only the love and power of Jesus can redeem.

The lake of fire in time forces all carnal beings into holyness, causing torment.

A God of love would not do this, but give freedom. But Noahs flood shows God will take measures to prevent beings from harming themselves and force them out of the bottomless pit of carnality, and into Gods glorious light.

 :2c:


Offline redhotmagma

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Re: Col. 1: 20 is conditional salvation.
« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2011, 10:33:32 PM »
can carnality really continue after death?  I mean if flesh is gone, and carnal=flesh (sarx in greek) then how can there be carnality?  I know theres different ideas about what happens in the resurrection, but is God going to resurrect people into their flesh bodies? 

Just thought about this, and it gives credence to the idea that the LOF is now.  Sin was condemned in the flesh, the wages of sin is death   :dontknow:

Offline Nathan

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Re: Col. 1: 20 is conditional salvation.
« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2011, 11:08:02 PM »
I believe you're absolutely right . . .carnality is confined to "this" realm of life, it has no place in the spirit . . .Scripture clearly states that . .Jesus saw Satan fall to the earth where "it" is the prince of the "air" (this dimension of life) and in another place after losing to Michael in battle, he was bound to the limitations of this realm . . .the garden we see the serpent . .same entity . . and it's confined to the tree of knowledge, which is the gateway into the realm where knowledge governs life.  Which again . .. is "this" realm.  Revelation again speaks to this in that "there was no place found for him in heaven . . ."  I know many don't see the connection between carnality and the devil, satan and lucifer, but they are all still patterns of what carnality is.  And it's confined to natural.  Natural lusts can not reach across the curtain of this life and the after life.  The after life is the realm of God . . .there's no place for carnality there.

Which for me, also means there's no place for any form of a hell be it eternal or temporal . . .punishment for being under the control of something you were born into in the first place isn't how God works.  His fire doesn't punish, it purifies.  Judgment isn't against "me", it's against the sin in me.  After judgment is released in me, I "become" wholly acceptable as a living sacrifice, I become a spiritual virgin to him because of the power of the fire that purifies. 

"If" there is no condemnation now . . .how can we think that there will be a punsihment, a condemnation for us "then"?

Offline sheila

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Re: Col. 1: 20 is conditional salvation.
« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2011, 11:16:32 PM »
 all in Adam can cry out,like Paul, WHO WILL SAVE ME FROM THIS BODY UNDERGOING THIS DEATH?   And we know 'WHO "

   the battle NOW is not over our spirit..but for possesion of our house[flesh/body] as to who will rule it..NOW..in this age.....whether it be a temple

  of which He throws out the money changers and takes up residence now...and rules in it..to those who say 'Blessed is He that comes in the name

  of the Lord"  coming in and supping with us]"Or,whether it be a temple that rejects Him when He comes to His home with an abomination spirit in it...

  full of serpents and vipers[Babylon/cage of demons man of sin/son of perdition]

   He come that we may have LIFE MORE ABUNDANTLY NOW....AND ETERNAL LIFE IN THE AGE TO COME

    Now,Paul hands over a man's flesh to satan. for the destruction of the flesh.in order that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord


    THE RESURRECTION OF THE RIGHTEOUS[first resurrection} IS MAN RAISED UP IN THE IMAGE OF THE INCORRUPTIBLE ONE...RECEIVING FREE GIFT

   the resurrection of the wicked is satan and his demonic hordes freed from the abyss...going forth to surround camp of city he loves..

   their death/abyssing is a state of inactivity...the lof is obliteration of all things that cause death/sin/error.....I know my perception of this differs

  from many here as to what lof is....and HE WILL MAKE A SHORT WORK OF IT...not eans  with people in torment...but a quick deliverance

   appointed for man to die ONCE..and then the judgement...where he receives the free gift of righteousness and the eternal kingdom on the merit

  of Jesus Christ and the work of His Father,done through him

PaoloNuevo

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Re: Col. 1: 20 is conditional salvation.
« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2011, 05:20:47 AM »
Quote
Salvation is still there for us to abide in, it's not a condition that we must accept before we die so afterwards we won't go to hell . . .Salvation is an enablement of forgiving power and a release of heavenly promises for me NOW . . .if I don't give the invitation, the consequences are, I continue going through this life bound and controlled by carnality in me.
 

Quote
He come that we may have LIFE MORE ABUNDANTLY NOW....AND ETERNAL LIFE IN THE AGE TO COME

    Now,Paul hands over a man's flesh to satan. for the destruction of the flesh.in order that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord


    THE RESURRECTION OF THE RIGHTEOUS[first resurrection} IS MAN RAISED UP IN THE IMAGE OF THE INCORRUPTIBLE ONE...RECEIVING FREE GIFT

   the resurrection of the wicked is satan and his demonic hordes freed from the abyss...going forth to surround camp of city he loves..

   their death/abyssing is a state of inactivity...the lof is obliteration of all things that cause death/sin/error.....I know my perception of this differs

  from many here as to what lof is....and HE WILL MAKE A SHORT WORK OF IT...not eans  with people in torment...but a quick deliverance

   appointed for man to die ONCE..and then the judgement...where he receives the free gift of righteousness and the eternal kingdom on the merit

  of Jesus Christ and the work of His Father,done through him

Quote
Col 1:20 isn't about saved but reconciled.

Saved from what?
If someone isn't saved from the 2nd death doesn't mean s/he won't be reconciled.

Besides of that "work" of believing is the work of HS.

Quote
Which for me, also means there's no place for any form of a hell be it eternal or temporal . . .punishment for being under the control of something you were born into in the first place isn't how God works.  His fire doesn't punish, it purifies.  Judgment isn't against "me", it's against the sin in me.  After judgment is released in me, I "become" wholly acceptable as a living sacrifice, I become a spiritual virgin to him because of the power of the fire that purifies. 

Thanks guys.. !  :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :cloud9:


Offline gregoryfl

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Re: Col. 1: 20 is conditional salvation.
« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2011, 05:23:04 AM »
(John 6:29 [WEB])
Jesus answered them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent."



(John 20:31 [WEB])
but these are written, that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name.


As for believing being a work of man toward God, it is actually quite the opposite. Can you see the similarity between these 2 verses? They are both saying the same thing. The little word "that" is very important to the meaning here. What do you see?

Ron

PaoloNuevo

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Re: Col. 1: 20 is conditional salvation.
« Reply #9 on: August 25, 2011, 06:03:28 AM »
Hmmm... not sure what I see there, gregory...

but I think it's similar to Jn 17: 3 where having life in His name (20:31) is dependent on knowing the Son and who He is and what He is about so we can better abide in Him?

Offline gregoryfl

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Re: Col. 1: 20 is conditional salvation.
« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2011, 06:30:46 AM »
Hmmm... not sure what I see there, gregory...

but I think it's similar to Jn 17: 3 where having life in His name (20:31) is dependent on knowing the Son and who He is and what He is about so we can better abide in Him?

I can understand not seeing this at first, because we have been conditioned to see things in a certain way, having been taught those things. Here are the verses again:

(John 6:29 [WEB])
Jesus answered them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent."


(John 20:31 [WEB])
but these are written, that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name.

The reason I am asking questions is because if what I am seeing is true, then I want you to be able to see it for yourself, and not because I told you.

Looking at John 20:31, do you see it saying that the things being written are a CONDITION for believing that Jesus is the Christ? Or would you say that the written things are there to CAUSE one to believe that Jesus is the Christ? The answer you come up with here is what Jesus had in mind when he said what he did in John 6.

In other words, is Jesus saying that the work of God is the CONDITION for believing in him, or is Jesus saying that the work of God is the CAUSE for believing in him? Or, put another way, is believing in him a work of man for God, or is believing in him a work of God for man?

Hopefully I am making more sense in my question. The reason I am bringing it up is because most people have been taught by rote to believe that our believing in Jesus is a work, the work of God, and I now see it differently, based on the questions I am asking you brother. :)

Ron Gregory
« Last Edit: August 25, 2011, 06:34:23 AM by gregoryfl »

Offline jabcat

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Re: Col. 1: 20 is conditional salvation.
« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2011, 06:32:11 AM »
but I think it's similar to Jn 17: 3 where having life in His name (20:31) is dependent on knowing the Son and who He is and what He is about so we can better abide in Him?

Amen.  I believe there's a response (Saul - "what would you have me do, Lord?") - there's faith toward ("believe in your heart, confess with your mouth") - BUT, that that faith to believe and respond is GIVEN by God.   We cannot earn or work to get our salvation.  He gives it, along with the faith to believe.  Not only did He die for us, He helps us believe in and trust in Him.  Each in his own order.  All part of His mercy and kindness toward us.

By grace are you saved, through faith, and that not of yourselves.  It is the gift of God. 

Offline jabcat

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Re: Col. 1: 20 is conditional salvation.
« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2011, 08:10:16 AM »
but I think it's similar to Jn 17: 3 where having life in His name (20:31) is dependent on knowing the Son and who He is and what He is about so we can better abide in Him?

 Amen!  We cannot earn or work to get our salvation.  He gives it, along with the faith to believe. 

who has faith?

"as to each God did deal a measure of faith"   Rom. 12:3

how is it used?

"no one is able to come unto me, if the Father who sent me may not draw him"  Jn. 6:44

when is it used?

"..each in his own turn.."  I Cor. 15:23

what's the bottom line?

"For by such grace you have been saved through faith. This does not come from you; it is the gift of God"   Eph. 2:8

 :bowing:
« Last Edit: August 25, 2011, 08:29:04 AM by jabcat »

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Col. 1: 20 is conditional salvation.
« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2011, 08:41:55 AM »
Hmmm... not sure what I see there, gregory...

but I think it's similar to Jn 17: 3 where having life in His name (20:31) is dependent on knowing the Son and who He is and what He is about so we can better abide in Him?

I can understand not seeing this at first, because we have been conditioned to see things in a certain way, having been taught those things. Here are the verses again:

(John 6:29 [WEB])
Jesus answered them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent."


(John 20:31 [WEB])
but these are written, that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name.

The reason I am asking questions is because if what I am seeing is true, then I want you to be able to see it for yourself, and not because I told you.

Looking at John 20:31, do you see it saying that the things being written are a CONDITION for believing that Jesus is the Christ? Or would you say that the written things are there to CAUSE one to believe that Jesus is the Christ? The answer you come up with here is what Jesus had in mind when he said what he did in John 6.

In other words, is Jesus saying that the work of God is the CONDITION for believing in him, or is Jesus saying that the work of God is the CAUSE for believing in him? Or, put another way, is believing in him a work of man for God, or is believing in him a work of God for man?

Hopefully I am making more sense in my question. The reason I am bringing it up is because most people have been taught by rote to believe that our believing in Jesus is a work, the work of God, and I now see it differently, based on the questions I am asking you brother. :)

Ron Gregory
CAUSE

ACVJohn 6
44 No man can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up in the last day.

ACVJohn 15
5 I am the grapevine, ye are the branches. He who dwells in me, and I in him, this man bears much fruit, because without me ye can do nothing.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2011, 08:45:45 AM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Nathan

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Re: Col. 1: 20 is conditional salvation.
« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2011, 03:54:33 PM »
Wow . . . you guys are making some really AWESOME observations!!!  Thank you!!

Offline sheila

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Re: Col. 1: 20 is conditional salvation.
« Reply #15 on: August 25, 2011, 05:01:04 PM »
 John 15;5...see what the Lord does with Joshua,a branch plucked out of the fire...so too, unfruitful dead branches[men without life of Christ in this world]

   receive a change in garment like Joshua.   GOD,JESUS PLUCK MAN FROM FIRE AND RECONCILE/RESTORE/RAISE UP IN CHRIST'S IMAGE,TO ETERNAL INCORRUPTION

   GOD DID IT ALL,PRAISE HIM!!! GOD HAS DONE WONDERFUL THINGS FOR THEM[man]   REPENTING OF THE WORK OF OUR HANDS[righteous by law]

   AND PRAISING HIM FOR THE WORK OF HIS!!!![grace/free gift] :bgdance:

Offline thinktank

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Re: Col. 1: 20 is conditional salvation.
« Reply #16 on: August 25, 2011, 08:55:18 PM »
but I think it's similar to Jn 17: 3 where having life in His name (20:31) is dependent on knowing the Son and who He is and what He is about so we can better abide in Him?

 Amen!  We cannot earn or work to get our salvation.  He gives it, along with the faith to believe. 

who has faith?

"as to each God did deal a measure of faith"   Rom. 12:3

how is it used?

"no one is able to come unto me, if the Father who sent me may not draw him"  Jn. 6:44

when is it used?

"..each in his own turn.."  I Cor. 15:23

what's the bottom line?

"For by such grace you have been saved through faith. This does not come from you; it is the gift of God"   Eph. 2:8

 :bowing:

I still believe this picture is incomplete. A lot of believers do not wake up one day full of faith, at least not the way I experienced. To me when God give us the grace of faith or gift of faith, I think it is given after we pray for it and humble ourselves, even after being broken, so that we cry out to God for our strength, to be filled with a measure of grace.

Take for example the gift of tongues. this gift is given after earnest expectation of God. I believe that the gift of faith is listed among the gifts that Paul makes mention of and so this gift is bestowed upon the believer who strives for the faith and contends for the race upon us.


Offline Nathan

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Re: Col. 1: 20 is conditional salvation.
« Reply #17 on: August 25, 2011, 09:58:43 PM »
I'm not so sure . .. I think "some" gifts we pray for don't come as the gift we think we're praying for . . .I think they come by way of opportunity . . .like . .. if I pray for patience, instead of giving me the gift of patience, God puts me in situations that "tests" or "strengthens" what patience I have.  i think faith may be in that same arena.  Rather than giving me more faith, he challenges the faith that I have so that it'll become stronger.  Kinda like getting bigger muscles . . .I've never heard of anyone going to their plastic surgeon and asking them to cut them open and insert more muscles . . .some things require personal disciplinary action . . .not salvation of course, that's still a gift as well . . .but, I don't know . . .maybe God "does" supernatually give us a greater measure of faith above and beyond the average measure everyone else has been given, I wouldn't put it past him to do it . ..but it kinda makes me wonder.  What good is having great faith if we're not going to be put in experiences that will requre faith above and beyond your average bear???

Offline sheila

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Re: Col. 1: 20 is conditional salvation.
« Reply #18 on: August 25, 2011, 10:18:17 PM »
 Jesus prayed to the Father,that Peter's faith not give out on him. There are also 'firey trials of our faith"   Think you both got a very good point

PaoloNuevo

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Re: Col. 1: 20 is conditional salvation.
« Reply #19 on: August 26, 2011, 11:38:19 AM »
Quote
Looking at John 20:31, do you see it saying that the things being written are a CONDITION for believing that Jesus is the Christ? Or would you say that the written things are there to CAUSE one to believe that Jesus is the Christ? The answer you come up with here is what Jesus had in mind when he said what he did in John 6.

In other words, is Jesus saying that the work of God is the CONDITION for believing in him, or is Jesus saying that the work of God is the CAUSE for believing in him? Or, put another way, is believing in him a work of man for God, or is believing in him a work of God for man?

I see it now!... God is the cause for our believing... not by human will (Rom 9: 18 ) but on God who shows mercy...  :thumbsup:

Offline sheila

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Re: Col. 1: 20 is conditional salvation.
« Reply #20 on: August 26, 2011, 03:15:34 PM »

    :thumbsup: :bgdance:...it's called being 'born from above!" Not by the will of man,but of the will of God!!!!

Offline Jeremias

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Re: Col. 1: 20 is conditional salvation.
« Reply #21 on: October 26, 2012, 07:53:50 AM »
Because in verse 23


23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.



it states that we have to hold on to our faith, and that is our only WORK the work of believing in Jesus Christ;

John 6:29

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

 29Jesus answered and said to them, `This is the work of God, that ye may believe in him whom He did send.'


Therefore Col. 1: 20 does not state that all WILL be saved, but all who believe and only those who hold on to the faith will be saved.

Ok Refute!   :icon_joker:

Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy, to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen. - Jud 1:24-25 NASB




Offline jabcat

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Re: Col. 1: 20 is conditional salvation.
« Reply #22 on: October 26, 2012, 08:30:09 AM »
Because in verse 23


23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.



it states that we have to hold on to our faith, and that is our only WORK the work of believing in Jesus Christ;

John 6:29

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

 29Jesus answered and said to them, `This is the work of God, that ye may believe in him whom He did send.'


Therefore Col. 1: 20 does not state that all WILL be saved, but all who believe and only those who hold on to the faith will be saved.

Ok Refute!   :icon_joker:

Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy, to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen. - Jud 1:24-25 NASB

 :thumbsup:

The blood that Jesus shed for me
Way back on Calvary
The blood that gives me strength
From day to day
It will never lose its power.

It reaches to the highest mountain
And it flows to the lowest valley
The blood that gives me strength
From day to day
It will never lose its power.

It soothes my doubts and calms my fears
And it dries all my tears
The blood that gives me strength
From day to day
It will never lose its power.

It reaches to the highest mountain
And it flows to the lowest valley
The blood that gives me strength
From day to day
It will never lose its power.

It reaches to the highest mountain
And it flows to the lowest valley
The blood that gives me strength
From day to day
It will never lose
It will never lose
It will never lose its power    A. Crouch

Offline sheila

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Re: Col. 1: 20 is conditional salvation.
« Reply #23 on: October 26, 2012, 06:24:53 PM »
it is impossible to please God without faith........Faith is a gift of God...when He shows you His face

  [reveals/Christ] not His back[law covenant]....thus NOW THAT YOU HAVE TASTED AND SEEN THAT GOD IS GOOD...

   thus faith in God..as a gift from Him..is dependant on Him revealing Himself to you......

   unbelievers are 'veiled' from this glory..by the god of this world..until God Himself makes His face

  to 'shine upon you".....the whole book of the revelations of Christ  [Rev] is Him revealing himself

  as judge and destroyer of all wicked opposition to man's eternal salvation.

    He works His wrath against false prophets,beastly understanding,satan and death for the eternal

  benefit of man..and FOR HIS OWN GLORY...for the SALVATION OF MAN IS GOD'S GLORY........

   AND THE WOMAN[JERUSALEM ABOVE] IS MAN'S GLORY[born again as new creature in Christ/from above]

  Her hair is the woman's glory...due to test of Jealousy..and bearing sons and daughters of God.....

 there is no falling away..for not a hair of your head will be harmed

  we are instructed to 'work out' our own salvation.....that is walking in faith in Him

 that He will accomplish these things.[Abraham believed God and it was counted to him as rightousness.

    he did NOT reckon God as a liar/as satan does[surely not! for God knows that......]

Offline ded2daworld

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Re: Col. 1: 20 is conditional salvation.
« Reply #24 on: October 26, 2012, 06:56:27 PM »
Because in verse 23


23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.



it states that we have to hold on to our faith, and that is our only WORK the work of believing in Jesus Christ;

John 6:29

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

 29Jesus answered and said to them, `This is the work of God, that ye may believe in him whom He did send.'


Therefore Col. 1: 20 does not state that all WILL be saved, but all who believe and only those who hold on to the faith will be saved.

Ok Refute!   :icon_joker:

The way I read it, you refuted yourself by John 6:29 by saying it is OUR work. It plainly says, "This is the work of God, that ye may believe in him whom he did send."
It is  of God and "not of yourselves lest any man should boast." :2c:
"Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith" Jesus(Love) never fails.
"Why do so many people think that the Bible is only inspired at certain points -  and that  THEY are inspired to pick out which points?"