Author Topic: Additions to the Hell Test  (Read 1235 times)

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Offline Universalist Catholic

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Additions to the Hell Test
« on: March 11, 2010, 11:57:32 PM »
1. If hell is eternal, why don't Jehovahs Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventists, and other Restorationist Churches not believe in Eternal Torment.  Those churches seem to study the bible pretty well,(Maybe overstudy the bible), but never the less will declare that the bible does not teach Eternal Torment.  I believe that they teach Annihilation, but its one step closer to Universalism.

2. If hell is eternal, why was the belief made popular only by Roman Powers?  Funny that the supposed original Church of Jesus Christ happens to be headquartered at the same headquarters of the most powerful power of the Western World.  However Christian thought combines with Roman powers, and rewrites history to make this claim that their new organization can never make any theological errors, due to the belief that Jesus gave Peter authority over the Church, and went to Rome and established the Papacy and every Church leader of Rome was a direct sucessor of St. Peter.  However according to the Bible and a discovery of St. Peters Tomb at Jerusalem, he was never in Rome.  But sure convenient how Rome took over all the Churches, decided what was truth and what was Heresy, and assimilated the people into thinking that the Church was always right, and the perfect time to insert the Dogma on Hell, which could never change. 

3. If hell is eternal, then why do the Churches go with the times on the teachings of hell.  In the Middle Ages, torturing and burning those who disagreed with those on top was completely acceptable.  So, it would not be socially acceptable for God to do the same to the wicked.  In todays day and age, torture is not socially acceptable.  Plus, if anyone were to show acts of violence towards someone because of their religion or sexual orientation, it would be judged as a hate crime.  Boy, we could not associate God with someone who would perform hate crimes, so it would be better to say that God does not send anyone to hell, we go to hell for willingly separate ourselves from God, which results in Torture.

4. If hell is eternal, why has this doctrine caused people to ignore simple bible teaching of "Judge not lest ye be judged".  Or they put a nice little twist on that scripture and state that its okay to judge if they are without sin, but they are "saved", so they are sinless and can judge.  "Your going to hell, your not saved".

5. If hell is eternal, why have most of the biblically contradictive and nonsense doctrines mostly been based on the doctrine of Hell.  Lets see, Infant Limbo, Once Saved always, Predestination, Arminianism, Mortal and Venial Sin that can only be forgiven by a priest, along with the philosophy that an offense against an infinite being merits infinite punishment?

6. If hell is eternal, why do people who fully endorse the Hell Dogma produce the worst fruit.  They call anyone names who does not agree with their doctrine, but if someone says anything contrary to their beliefs, they are being persecuted.  It is some psychological problem when one knows that theres a good chance that their doctrine is not exactly correct, and feel the need to attack anyone with a different opinion. 

7. If hell is eternal, why is it that the biggest advocates of Eternal Torment care more about stupid rules, such as wearing skirts, birth control, fasting at certain times of the year, how much one tithes, or a woman not being a housewife, but could care less about a simple commandment like love your neighbor.  They are extremely nasty with anyone who does not agree with them, and act extremely arrogant. 

8. If hell is eternal, why do people try to avoid hell by treating Rosaries, the Devotion of Divine Mercy, crucifixes, prayer beads, and manmade "Born again" prayers as some type of magical Charm?  Last I checked, thats idolatry. 

9. If hell is eternal, why does Hell produce the most anxiety when the bible strictly tells us not to be afraid. 

10. If hell is eternal, why is it that none of the hell beliefs make any sense?  Funny thing is Anxiety based disorders can cause people to have difficulty reasoning, and fear things not really there.  Could the people who have been writing about the hell doctrines have been afraid?

Offline willieH

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Re: Additions to the Hell Test
« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2010, 01:39:55 AM »
willieH: Hi UC... :hithere:

1. If hell is eternal, why don't Jehovahs Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventists, and other Restorationist Churches not believe in Eternal Torment.  Those churches seem to study the bible pretty well,(Maybe overstudy the bible), but never the less will declare that the bible does not teach Eternal Torment.  I believe that they teach Annihilation, but its one step closer to Universalism.

Don't know about JW's, but 7th Day Adventists are definitely ANNHILATION believers... (I was with the SDA church for around 5yrs)... and as far as studying the Bible... they do so, pretty much under the "guidance" of the writings of Ellen G. White...

I had some pretty extensive talks about UR/Salvation of ALL MEN, with the preacher (whom I still respect) of the church I attended... but he really thought it was a mistaken teaching (big surprise, eh?)... and disagreed, even when I showed him many texts which he was unable to explain.

It does not matter how much you study (although it is a worthy pursuit, and I encourage everyone to diligently study daily!)... In the end, ...it is GOD (not the study) which decides the REVELATION of His WORD...

2. If hell is eternal, why was the belief made popular only by Roman Powers?  Funny that the supposed original Church of Jesus Christ happens to be headquartered at the same headquarters of the most powerful power of the Western World.  However Christian thought combines with Roman powers, and rewrites history to make this claim that their new organization can never make any theological errors, due to the belief that Jesus gave Peter authority over the Church, and went to Rome and established the Papacy and every Church leader of Rome was a direct sucessor of St. Peter.  However according to the Bible and a discovery of St. Peters Tomb at Jerusalem, he was never in Rome.  But sure convenient how Rome took over all the Churches, decided what was truth and what was Heresy, and assimilated the people into thinking that the Church was always right, and the perfect time to insert the Dogma on Hell, which could never change.

Well... Hell doesn't even exist, let alone be "eternal"... for if it (existed, and) were ETERNAL...  then it has ALWAYS BEEN... and those in it ETERNALLY have ALWAYS been IN IT... Pretty doggone ridiculous! :rolleye:  (ETERNAL means WITHOUT BEGINNING as well as WITHOUT END).

3. If hell is eternal, then why do the Churches go with the times on the teachings of hell.  In the Middle Ages, torturing and burning those who disagreed with those on top was completely acceptable.  So, it would not be socially acceptable for God to do the same to the wicked.  In todays day and age, torture is not socially acceptable.  Plus, if anyone were to show acts of violence towards someone because of their religion or sexual orientation, it would be judged as a hate crime.  Boy, we could not associate God with someone who would perform hate crimes, so it would be better to say that God does not send anyone to hell, we go to hell for willingly separate ourselves from God, which results in Torture.

(1) GOD sent NOT His Son to condemn the WORLD -- John 3:17 -- HE nor His SON CHANGE -- Mal 3:6 -- Heb 13:8 -- which means... that if GOD sent NOT His Son to CONDEMN, then NON-CONDEMNATION is HIS position as well!  :dontknow:

(2)  We cannot "separate ourselves" from God -- Psalm 139:8 -- GOD is OMNIPRESENT, which means EVERYWHERE, at ONCE, He is at the BEGINNING and at the END -- Isaiah 46:10 -- Rev 1:8 -- also,

JESUS said:  "I will NEVER leave thee nor forsake thee" -- Heb 13:6 --

The word NEVER means: not at ANY TIME... which further means that He is WITH us, even though we are yet to believe that He is...

4. If hell is eternal, why has this doctrine caused people to ignore simple bible teaching of "Judge not lest ye be judged".  Or they put a nice little twist on that scripture and state that its okay to judge if they are without sin, but they are "saved", so they are sinless and can judge.  "Your going to hell, your not saved".

Men in their arrogance, utilize the PRIDE of LIFE sin, often.  And such is nothing more than that arrogant SIN, being manifest IN THEM.  :sigh:

5. If hell is eternal, why have most of the biblically contradictive and nonsense doctrines mostly been based on the doctrine of Hell.  Lets see, Infant Limbo, Once Saved always, Predestination, Arminianism, Mortal and Venial Sin that can only be forgiven by a priest, along with the philosophy that an offense against an infinite being merits infinite punishment?

Venial sin?  :pointlaugh: :laugh:

Where is the BIBLICAL statement that an "offense against an infinite being merits infinite punishment"?   This is again, RELIGIOUS "hoo-haa" that has NO FOUNDATION in the WORD of God... irregardless of the "philosopher" which seeks to falsely employ it.  :thumbdown:

Its all RELIGIOUS BALONEY, UC... Any preacher, can preach anything...  :dontknow:  Just because a (sinful, in need of forgiveness) "priest" or "preacher" -- gives "forgiveness", does not mean that it has been given by GOD... :mnah:  GOD is well able to give His forgiveness and needs NO MAN to assist Him, in order to do so.

6. If hell is eternal, why do people who fully endorse the Hell Dogma produce the worst fruit.  They call anyone names who does not agree with their doctrine, but if someone says anything contrary to their beliefs, they are being persecuted.  It is some psychological problem when one knows that theres a good chance that their doctrine is not exactly correct, and feel the need to attack anyone with a different opinion.

Again, Hell doesn't even exist... except in the minds and demented hearts of those who cherish it, worship it, and then pour it's BAD NEWS upon the "unbelieving" WORLD that GOD so LOVES... in the stead of GOOD NEWS which is the GOSPEL. :rolleye:

What GLORY, LOVE, JOY, MERCY, or any other POSITIVE element is found within it?  :mshock:

What PURPOSE does it have?  How does it coincide with such as this:

Matt 5:44 -- but I SAY unto you... LOVE your enemies, BLESS them that curse you, do GOOD to them that hate you, and PRAY for them which despitefully use you, and PERSECUTE YOU...

Matt 5:48 -- be ye THEREFORE [as in Matt 5:44] PERFECT even ...AS... your Father in Heaven is PERFECT...

Only a BLIND man will not SEE that being "PERFECT" ...AS... is the Father, is to LOVE, BLESS, do GOOD, and PRAY for ones enemies, simply because THAT is what HE DOES!!!!  :dontknow:

7. If hell is eternal, why is it that the biggest advocates of Eternal Torment care more about stupid rules, such as wearing skirts, birth control, fasting at certain times of the year, how much one tithes, or a woman not being a housewife, but could care less about a simple commandment like love your neighbor.  They are extremely nasty with anyone who does not agree with them, and act extremely arrogant.

You will KNOW the true followers of CHRIST... for they will DO, as DID, ...HE... Is there ONE notation of CHRIST persecuting?  Judging? Condemning?  :JCThink: 

GOD is IMPARTIAL to men -- Acts 10:34 (& 9 other verses) -- and when CHRIST had the OBVIOUS opporunity, ...He did NOT CONDEMN here:  John 8:3-11 -- If He did not CONDEMN this woman, how can He remain IMPARTIAL, by CONDEMNING anyone? :dunno:

8. If hell is eternal, why do people try to avoid hell by treating Rosaries, the Devotion of Divine Mercy, crucifixes, prayer beads, and manmade "Born again" prayers as some type of magical Charm?  Last I checked, thats idolatry.


Well... none of those things brings one a millimeter closer to the Kingdom of GOD... neither do they CONDEMN them to a NON-EXISTENT torture chamber... :mnah:

9. If hell is eternal, why does Hell produce the most anxiety when the bible strictly tells us not to be afraid.
 

MEN hold power over other men, by means of FEAR... If you are the BOSS, your employees must watch their "p's & q's" around you, lest they get a place in the soup line, eh?  Or a wife must fear the muscles of her husband, because he could "knock her out"...

Wherever MEN try to appear as GOD's over another instilling FEAR of one sort or another, ...is EVIL manifest WITHIN THEM.  :sigh:

10. If hell is eternal, why is it that none of the hell beliefs make any sense?  Funny thing is Anxiety based disorders can cause people to have difficulty reasoning, and fear things not really there.  Could the people who have been writing about the hell doctrines have been afraid?

UC... it is because it [hell] is the NIGHTMARE, instead of the DREAM [heaven]... It is the OPPOSITE of GOOD NEWS... corrupted, insecure, without substance... filled with SORROW instead of JOY... filled with IRRATIONALITY instead of REASON... filled with HATE instead of LOVE... and that is only the BEGINNING of its foolishness...

...willieH  :icon_king:

Offline CHB

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Re: Additions to the Hell Test
« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2010, 05:18:22 PM »
Amen willie,  :thumbsup:

What a coincidence I was associated with the Seventh Day Adentist for a couple of years. Isn't it funny how all religions have someone they go to for all their answers? There is always some man they look to for the truth instead of God or the Holy Spirit.

Here is another one:
If hell is eternal why isn't Jesus there now in our place paying that debt?

CHB

Offline Universalist Catholic

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Re: Additions to the Hell Test
« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2010, 07:17:52 AM »
New additions

If hell is real, why is it that all the churches that teach everlasting hell(Annihilation, Eternal torment) all can be traced back to some human.  Catholicism-Augustine and Constantine, Eastern Orthodox-Patriarchs of the East, Lutheranism-Martin Luther, Anglicanism-King Henry, Calvinism-John Calvin, Arminianism-Arminius, Methodism-John Wesley, Jehovahs Witness-Charles Taze Russel, Mormonism-Joseph Smith, Seventh Day Adventist-Ellen G. White, Presbyterianism-Calvinism and Arminianism, Other countless denominations, plus most of the Fundamentalist Churches that claim to be strict bible believers, Pentecostals can be rooted in Arminian Theology, Baptists are mostly rooted in a mix of Calvinism and Arminian Theology.  Universalist thought seems be the only form of Christian theology that is not rooted in any single Man.  Theodore of Montepusa, Diodore of Tarsus, Origen, Clement of Alexandria, Gregory of Nyssa, and many other people embraced those teachings, but other ancient writings attest to the idea of Universal Salvation long before any of these teachers.


Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Additions to the Hell Test
« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2010, 07:29:30 AM »

Hi Universalist Catholic,
Have you noticed, now, a different level of understanding when you read the Bible?

Apoc

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Re: Additions to the Hell Test
« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2010, 07:34:59 AM »
It's kind of hard to say that a theology doesn't come from people.  The abstract that we bring to definition in universal salvation takes teachers or people to perpetuate.  I guess I'm saying that the same argument made here could be made from outsiders towards us believers in universal salvation/apocatastasis.  They might say that Origen was Orthodox, that St. Gregory as well as St. Isaac were Orthodox and that when they preached universal salvation they were applying personal interpretation and had selfish motives.

I have heard from Orthodox priests that consider apocotastasis as real that they can't in turn preach it to the church, because the average believer wouldn't be able to stay on the straight and narrow w/o some belief in hell as a consequence.  

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Additions to the Hell Test
« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2010, 07:43:03 AM »
The Word of the Lord requires no man to perpetuate.
Without His Spirit we would cease to exist. Period.
Behold! The Lord allows your very thoughts on this matter!

Apoc

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Re: Additions to the Hell Test
« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2010, 08:06:22 AM »
The Word of the Lord requires no man to perpetuate.
Without His Spirit we would cease to exist. Period.
Behold! The Lord allows your very thoughts on this matter!

Now you are just being ridiculous. Of course the Lord said to preach the gospel and of course there were prophets that perpetuated the word, other believers, even angels were used in such manner.  Whatever you are drinking, Beloved Servant....well anyways, some of your comments seem so omnipotent.  Like you are representing a final word and decree straight from God.  It's starting to get overwhelming.  How is it that God's word doesn't need perpetuating?

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Additions to the Hell Test
« Reply #8 on: April 11, 2010, 05:35:28 PM »
That's just the way it comes out to the keyboard.
I don't think about it too much, really it just comes to me as I write it.
When I read a post often it can be just one word in there that sparks a response.

If every tongue was still the praise will still continue,
the rocks and stones themselves would start to sing hosanna.

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Additions to the Hell Test
« Reply #9 on: April 11, 2010, 05:55:10 PM »

Luke 19
40 And answering, He said to them, "I am saying to you that if ever these will be silent, the stones will be crying."