Author Topic: Best argument AGAINST Universal "Salvation!"  (Read 9474 times)

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Theo Book

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Re: Best argument AGAINST Universal "Salvation!"
« Reply #100 on: March 21, 2010, 10:21:02 PM »
All who are in christ are the seed of Abraham; and are counted as though they were seed of Israel, in place of those who disbelieved among Israel's seed in the flesh. All Israel will be saved.

1 Cor 15:22 -- As IN ADAM ...ALL... die, ...so IN CHRIST shall ...ALL... [same "all"] be made alive.

This can be stated as follows with the SAME meaning:  Just AS ALL DIE in ADAM, so shall ALL shall made alive IN CHRIST.

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

NEWS FLASH! NEWS FLASH! NEWS FLASH!
I Cor 15: 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

This is telling us "All THAT ARE IN" Christ shall be made alive. All will be saved, IN CHRIST. If you are not IN CHRIST, you lose.


The verse says nothing of the kind concerning  "losing".

Quote
G5618  hosper  hoce'-per

from G5613 and G4007;

just as, i.e. exactly like:--(even, like) as.
In the ancient greek this word proceeeds all others in the verse. 


EXACTLY LIKE  in adam ALL die ,  SO in Christ ALL shall be made alive.



Consider; Apes and monkeys are not covered in this covenant because they were never "in Adam." In like manner, all who are not "In Christ" are not covered by the blood of the covenant. We are baptized into Christ, and as many as are baptized into Christ, do put on Christ.


I think we can find that apes and monkeys do not apply to this passage,  and considering that will not change the meaning.  Apes and monkeys are addressed in a general way in another passage.

Ac 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of ALL things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.



Does ALL have the context of ALL of a certain nature here?  I do not believe it does. 

Because it is speaking of all creation.

Ro 8:21 that the creation itself, also, shall be freed from the slavery of corruption into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
 



I think that is a reach. paul "preached to the whole creation" but I think he means "all men." I don't think he preached the gospel of Christ to chipmonks and squirrels.

But back to the issue; ONLY those "IN Christ" will be saved, of all those under the new covenant.


This is part of the issue, you brought up monkeys and apes as an attempt to prove a verse means what you say it means, I did not.

So do you think the restitution of all things means only people as well?   Please provide the scriptural support that we need to infer that "all things" somehow means  "just humans".


You think this verse means just men

Ro 8:22 For we are aware that the entire creation is groaning and travailing together until now.

And women.

man.

The whole creation does not "expect" anything. Man does. The whole creation could care less about "sons ofGod." Man cares.
Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

The whole creation is not vain. Man is vain. And only man has hope. The horse certainly does not say "I Hope that dumb farmer hasn't forgotten the oats again."

Reason and will are not about the whole creation, they are about man.
 20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

And the whole creation will not be delivered into liberty as children of God. Man will.
 21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.


Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Best argument AGAINST Universal "Salvation!"
« Reply #101 on: March 22, 2010, 12:50:36 AM »

The whole creation does not "expect" anything.


You are unable to make that determination in the absolute sense. Just because you cannot communicate with a rock does not mean it is not alive in some sense.

Even the most dense object known to man is comprised of moving particles.  We as humans have been given a different existance and are gifted to have the responsibility to take care of creation.  Taking care of things means that they have a certain value.

Under certain circumstances scripture says that the rocks cry out.   If you think that everything interacts with God the same then you will not see this possibility.


The word creation from the ancient greek is not specific enough to mankind to assert it must only apply to humans.

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G2937  ktisis  ktis'-is

from G2936;

original formation (properly, the act; by implication, the thing, literally or
figuratively):--building, creation, creature, ordinance.

Quote
The horse certainly does not say "I Hope that dumb farmer hasn't forgotten the oats again."


I do not believe the horse would express being hungry in that way and I have not said it would.  but to say a living creature or creation has no way in the absolute sense to goan over imperfection denies that scripture says ALL THINGS will be restored not specifically referencing just human beings. 

I have no reason to define scriptural words to  refer to less things when the wording does not dictate that at all.

Theo Book

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Re: Best argument AGAINST Universal "Salvation!"
« Reply #102 on: March 22, 2010, 01:54:51 AM »

The whole creation does not "expect" anything.


You are unable to make that determination in the absolute sense. Just because you cannot communicate with a rock does not mean it is not alive in some sense.

Even the most dense object known to man is comprised of moving particles.  We as humans have been given a different existance and are gifted to have the responsibility to take care of creation.  Taking care of things means that they have a certain value.

Under certain circumstances scripture says that the rocks cry out.   If you think that everything interacts with God the same then you will not see this possibility.


The word creation from the ancient greek is not specific enough to mankind to assert it must only apply to humans.

Quote
G2937  ktisis  ktis'-is

from G2936;

original formation (properly, the act; by implication, the thing, literally or
figuratively):--building, creation, creature, ordinance.

Quote
The horse certainly does not say "I Hope that dumb farmer hasn't forgotten the oats again."


I do not believe the horse would express being hungry in that way and I have not said it would.  but to say a living creature or creation has no way in the absolute sense to goan over imperfection denies that scripture says ALL THINGS will be restored not specifically referencing just human beings. 

I have no reason to define scriptural words to  refer to less things when the wording does not dictate that at all.

I see no scripture that says "God is NOT a spider" but I do not believe God is a spider. I do not bleieve God is a tree, in whose image the mighty Oak was made.

I do know God said of his creation, I command all MEN everywhere, to repent." He did not say this, at least in the book address to men, of trees, and rocks, and spiders, and horses.

Beyond that, I do not know.

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Best argument AGAINST Universal "Salvation!"
« Reply #103 on: March 22, 2010, 02:19:04 AM »
Quote

I see no scripture that says "God is NOT a spider" but I do not believe God is a spider. I do not bleieve God is a tree, in whose image the mighty Oak was made.

Sure, but the spider is creation,. so are you and everything that exists.  I have not argued what God is or isn't, but that the definitions of words do not cause me to determine that "creation" means  "just humans". That is my main point, not so much as an argument, but to point out why I do not see things the same way you do.



Quote
I do know God said of his creation, I command all MEN everywhere, to repent." He did not say this, at least in the book address to men, of trees, and rocks, and spiders, and horses.

I have not raised the issue that trees, rocks, need to repent.  The resitution of all things has more implications than just the idea of repentance. To me there is more to creation and life interacting with the almighty than just humans.

Quote
Beyond that, I do not know.

fair enough

Offline CHB

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Re: Best argument AGAINST Universal "Salvation!"
« Reply #104 on: March 22, 2010, 08:42:38 PM »
Thought I would give my :2c: on this subject of God reconciling all things.

(Col. 1:16&20) For by him were all things created,.. {I assume that means all things including the bugs}.. that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible,.. {doesn't leave anything out}..whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers, ALL things were created by him, and for him.

(Verse 20) And having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to RECONCILE ALL THINGS UNTO HIMSELF; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

These two verses tell me that ALL THINGS big, small, no matter where they are, will be reconcilled, saved. If all things were made for him why would he destroy any of it?

(Isaiah chapter 11) Talks about the cow and the bear feeding together, a child shall play on the hole of the asp and a weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.

(Verse 9) "They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain; for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea".

Even animals are agressive and kill so why wouldn't God reconcile them also?

(Verse 11) "And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand AGAIN THE SECOND TIME to recover the remnant of his people". 

(John 6:45) "It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father cometh unto me".   This says All will be taught and EVERY MAN that hears will come to me. A good UR verse.


From these verses it sounds like when Christ is in the earth that animals will still be here. I cannot say what will exist after all is in all but from what I understand all of God's creation will exist even after Christ returns to earth. IF all things were created for him I can't imagine him destroying any of his creation.

CHB   

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Best argument AGAINST Universal "Salvation!"
« Reply #105 on: March 22, 2010, 09:33:39 PM »
All who are in christ are the seed of Abraham; and are counted as though they were seed of Israel, in place of those who disbelieved among Israel's seed in the flesh. All Israel will be saved.

1 Cor 15:22 -- As IN ADAM ...ALL... die, ...so IN CHRIST shall ...ALL... [same "all"] be made alive.

This can be stated as follows with the SAME meaning:  Just AS ALL DIE in ADAM, so shall ALL shall made alive IN CHRIST.

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

NEWS FLASH! NEWS FLASH! NEWS FLASH!
I Cor 15: 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

This is telling us "All THAT ARE IN" Christ shall be made alive. All will be saved, IN CHRIST. If you are not IN CHRIST, you lose.
KJV1Co 15:22-23 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

The way I read it Theo.
Statement #1: 100% died in Adam.
Statement #2: 100% shall (eventually) be made alive in Christ.
Statement #3: The making alive is in groups (progressive perhaps)
Statement #4: A list showing the order of the groups. Christ, firstfruits, those in Christ at His coming

If the total of statement #4 isn't 100% then that group comes later.

KJVRev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection:
That's one group. A first group means there is at least also a second group.

KJVRev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

And that's the group that wasn't included in statement #4
 :2c:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Theo Book

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Re: Best argument AGAINST Universal "Salvation!"
« Reply #106 on: March 23, 2010, 01:55:33 AM »
Thought I would give my :2c: on this subject of God reconciling all things.

(Col. 1:16&20) For by him were all things created,.. {I assume that means all things including the bugs}.. that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible,.. {doesn't leave anything out}..whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers, ALL things were created by him, and for him.

Well my friend, look again at your prooftext to see what it really says. EVERYONE overlooks the key word that serves as a limiting parameter in this passage.
Col 1:16 "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:"

This is speaking of the new creation, not the original, because God alone created heaven and earth, Jesus was not there.
Look at two things, Isaiah 44:24 "Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens MONOS [alone]; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

That word "monos" is translated "alone." Look at what Jesus says when incorporating this word in describing his relationship with his Father..."Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me monos [alone]: and yet I am ouk monos [not alone], because the Father is with me." [John 16:32] Jesus said that when he and the Father are together, they are "ouk monos;" God said he MONOS [alone] created all things. The creation in which Jesus took part is the NEW CREATION, not the original.

Look at the language used when Holy Spirit discusses the new creation;
2 Corinthians 5:17 "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are gegonen [become] new."

And look at the words used in John 1:3 "All things through it ginomai [became]; and without it ginomai [became] not one thing that ginomai [has become].[Grk interlinear.][For "it" instead of "him" see the first several English translations in history;

TYNDALE BIBLE (1525)
John 1:1 In the beginnynge was the worde, and the worde was with God, and the worde was god.
 2 The same was in the beginnynge with god.
 3 All things were made by it; and without it was made nothinge that was made.

GREAT BIBLE (1539)
1 In the begynnyng was the worde, and the worde was wyth God: and God was the worde. 2 The same was in the begynnyng wyth God. 3 All things were made by it, and wythout it, was made nothyng that was made.

GENEVA BIBLE (1560)
John 1:1 In the beginning was the worde, and the worde was with God, and that worde was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by it; and without it was made nothing that was made.

BISHOP'S BIBLE (1568)
John 1:1 In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and God was that word. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by it; and without it was made nothing that was made.

The first English translation to use "him" in place of "it" was the Catholic Duay Rheims:
RHEIMS BIBLE (1582)
John 1:1 In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and God was the word. 2 This was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was made nothing. That which was made

And the King James followed the Rheims.
KING JAMES BIBLE (1611)
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
 2 The same was in the beginning with God.
 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

As for "ginomai" meaning created, it is never so translated in the new testament, but is used as in Luke 23:12 "And the same day Pilate and Herod ginomai [were made] friends together: for before they were at enmity between themselves."

It is the new creation under consideration in col 1:16, and in John 1:3.

Now, back to Col 1:16, "whether they be" is a limiting parameter telling us which specific "all things" are under consideration. "Whether they be" thrones or dominions, or principalities or powers. NOTHING else is under consideration in this passage. When Jesus preached his very famous sermon on the mount, as recorded in Mat chapters 5 through 7, he was laying the foundation for the new earth, "a new and living way." When he entered heaven, at his ascension, all thrones, dominions, principalities, and powers had to move down one position to accomodate his new position in heaven, it constituted a "new heaven." "In Christ All things have become new."

Quote
(Isaiah chapter 11) Talks about the cow and the bear feeding together, a child shall play on the hole of the asp and a weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.

(Verse 9) "They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain; for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea".

Even animals are agressive and kill so why wouldn't God reconcile them also?

Because they are not made in his image. [Ecc 3:21] "Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?"

I do not know answers, only questions, including my own beliefs. I continually read and study to comprehend all that God has revealed, and try to compensate between sometimes seemingly competing concepts. I am not set in stone as to my core believfs, but to change them I need more thn sound bites that I like to hear. And I do like what I am seeing on this board. I just do not change in the blink of an eye. It is too important to me.

Offline CHB

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Re: Best argument AGAINST Universal "Salvation!"
« Reply #107 on: March 23, 2010, 06:19:18 PM »
Hi Theo,

I think this new creation you are talking about is us becoming a new creature, that is the old man being changed to a new person.

This Word..{Jesus Christ}..you are referring to was WITH God in the beginning of the creation of the world (John 1:2) The same was in the beginning WITH God.

(John 1:3) speaking of the Word,..{Jesus Christ}..says, "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made".  This verse ties in with (Col. 1:16) & (Psalms 33:6) "By the Word of the Lord were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth".  (Heb. 11:3) Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed BY THE WORD of God. (1Peter 3:5) For this they are willingly ignorant of, that by the WORD of God the heavens were of OLD.

(1John 1:1-2) That which was from the BEGINNING, which we have heard, WHICH WE HAVE SEEN WITH OUR OWN EYES, which we HAVE LOOKED UPON,  and our hands have handled, of the WORD OF LIFE.

(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto yopu that eternal life, which was WITH THE FATHER, and was manifested unto us;).

Jesus was this WORD, that I see as being the creator of ALL THINGS.

You said that in Colossians it was only talking about thrones, powers, dominions, principalities. I see it as saying he created ALL THINGS, including the powers of heaven and earth. 

CHB   

Theo Book

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Re: Best argument AGAINST Universal "Salvation!"
« Reply #108 on: March 24, 2010, 01:40:47 AM »
Hi Theo,

I think this new creation you are talking about is us becoming a new creature, that is the old man being changed to a new person.

This Word..{Jesus Christ}..you are referring to was WITH God in the beginning of the creation of the world (John 1:2) The same was in the beginning WITH God.

(John 1:3) speaking of the Word,..{Jesus Christ}..says, "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made".  This verse ties in with (Col. 1:16) & (Psalms 33:6) "By the Word of the Lord were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth".  (Heb. 11:3) Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed BY THE WORD of God. (1Peter 3:5) For this they are willingly ignorant of, that by the WORD of God the heavens were of OLD.

(1John 1:1-2) That which was from the BEGINNING, which we have heard, WHICH WE HAVE SEEN WITH OUR OWN EYES, which we HAVE LOOKED UPON,  and our hands have handled, of the WORD OF LIFE.

(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto yopu that eternal life, which was WITH THE FATHER, and was manifested unto us;).

Jesus was this WORD, that I see as being the creator of ALL THINGS.

You said that in Colossians it was only talking about thrones, powers, dominions, principalities. I see it as saying he created ALL THINGS, including the powers of heaven and earth. 

CHB   

John certainly had the vocabulary and the Holy Spirit inspiration necessary to say he was referencing the beginning of creation, if that was indeed the "beginning" he was talking aobut.

 The Holy spirit inspired New Testament writers to reference the "beginning of creation" when it was applicable.

Mark 10:6 But from the [arxees ktisews] beginning of the creation God [epoieesen] made them male and female.

Mark 13:19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the [arxees ktisews] beginning of the creation which God [ektisen] created unto this time, neither shall be.

2 Peter 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the [arxees ktisews] beginning of the creation.

Revelation 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the [ee arxee tees ktisews tou theou] beginning of the creation of God;

Mark, Peter, and yes, even John had already had experience referencing the "beginning of creation." They already knew from prior authorship and from inspiration, how to express "arxees ktisews" if the beginning of creation is what they want to express.

But John made two changes when he wrote his gospel.
1). He wrote [en arxee] and left off [ktisews] which he had previously expressed, because he now has a different [arxee] in mind.

It is the same [arxee] he references in John 15:27 "And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from (the) [arxees] beginning."

It is the same [arxee] he references in John 16:4 "But these things have I told you, that when the time shall come, ye may remember that I told you of them. And these things I said not unto you at (the) [arxees] beginning, because I was with you."

John is here recording Jesus own testimony. Do you really think Jesus doesn't know how to reference "arxees ktisews?" Or do you really think John is not being inspired by the Holy Spirit to write what he means to express?

2) Remember back up the page, in Mark 10:6, the reference to "made?" He "made them male and female."  "Made" in that reference is [epoieesen].

Compare it with John 1:3 and you will see it is not the same meaning. John 1:3 records "All things were [egeneto] made by him; and without him was not any thing [egeneto] made that was [gegonen] made.

Egeneto and gegonen both derive from ginomai, which means to become, as in "Herod and Pilate were made friends, for they had been at enmity before that day."

John is not saying the same thing in 1:1-3 that he expresses elsewhere in his writings, and that Mark and Mathew expresses in their writings and he knows the difference.


Offline Pierac

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Re: Best argument AGAINST Universal "Salvation!"
« Reply #109 on: March 24, 2010, 01:58:55 AM »
1Jn 1:1 What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life-- 2 and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us--

What does scripture teach you about... What was from the beginning?

We need to compare both John 1:1 with 1 John 1:1


John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word."  1 John 1:1 "What was from the beginning, what we have heard."

Notice that in John what is from the beginning is the word, and in 1 John what is from the beginning is something that they heard (a message) .

Look closely...


1 John 2:7 "Beloved, I am writing no new commandment to you but an old commandment that you had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word that you have heard."

In 1 John 1:1 what was from the beginning is something that they heard, here in 1 John 2:7 the old commandment is what they have had from the beginning, (sound familiar?) and the old commandment is the "WORD" that they what? Heard! The same as in 1 John 1:1.

So, What commandment is John speaking about?

John is speaking about what Jesus called the greatest commandment, ( Mark 12:29-30 ) the commandment of love which God gave the Hebrews from the beginning. The message of love that the proclamation of the Kingdom of God brings with it.


How do we know for sure that this is the message and/or the commandment that they heard from the beginning? Because John tells you so in 1 John 3:11 and 1 John 3:23:

"For this is the message you have HEARD from the BEGINNING: we should love one another."

"And his commandment is this: we should believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another."

Loving one another is how the world will know that we are followers of God's Christ.

John 13:30 "This is how all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another."

According to Paul (Romans 13:9), the law of love is the fulfillment of the Mosaic Law and it is the Law in the coming Kingdom of God which the Messiah has come to proclaim.



John is both in John 1 and 1john1 talking about a message heard from the beginning, not the beginning of time.

Paul



Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: Best argument AGAINST Universal "Salvation!"
« Reply #110 on: March 24, 2010, 02:32:18 AM »

Amen and Amen, Paul.