(TB)
I don't think so. I think it is more like"I was drawn to her innocence" or "I am drawn to nature's beauty." It is more the concept of discovering what it is that appeals to the spirit of YOU.
(CHB)Look at what you are saying here. You were drawn to her because of her innocence. Because nature is beautiful, you are drawn to it. You see neither one of these things starts with you.
(TB)THAT was my point. "If I be lifted up "I" will draw" all men "unto me." This is not a "dragging," it is a drawing.
(CHB) It is the same with us and God. We are drawn to him because of who and what he is and his influence. Don't you see here we are not the instigators he is.
Wait a minute. back up and reread the post. I already pointed it out to you, I will try again with brackets. "If I [Jesus] be lifted up, I[Jesus] will draw all men [you, me, all others] to me [Jesus]. Do you see it? HE draws US. I think we are in agreement here.
(CHB)
I want to pose a question to you. If you believe that most will suffer in hell for all eternity, who paid that debt for us? If burning in hell is our punishment why isn't Jesus there now paying that debt.
I think that's more than "a" question. I'll try to make it clear this time. First, I do not think in superlatives, like "most," because I think it will pretty well even out. I think the uses of numbers and superlatives in scripture is to catch our attention, because even scripture tells us the number of the saved is so inclusive it has not been numbered -
Rev 7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude,
which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
(CHB)
Some one would have to be willing to take our place in hell in order for us to stay out of it, wouldn't thay?
Only if YOU were put in charge of guilt and penalties. God said that the blood of Jesus was sufficient to pay the ransom for all. Nothing has ever been said in scripture about anyone taking anyone else's place in the punishment. That was never the price for sin.
Death is the wages of sin, and Jesus "tasted of death for every man." THAT was sufficient.
(CHB)
Jesus died and was resurrected, no more no less. Wouldn't someone have to pay for our eternal burning if that is our punishment? That debt has not been paid for anyone. If eternal hell is our punishment then we are all destined to go there, wouldn't you say?
I shall try to clarify the issue.
Death is the wages of sin, announced to the living for the purpose of giving the living time to repent. some will, some won't. The decision is theirs.
Death carries two meanings in scripture; separation of man's soul from his body is first; separation of man's soul from God, is second. This is covered in scripture by reference to first and second death.
The blood of Jesus is the blood of the covenant under which we live. THAT value has been stipulated, accomodated, and paid. That blood covers all the sins of men from the beginning. All other covenants have always looked forward to the cross of Christ. OUR
covenant looks back to that same cross.
God is a God of antitheses. God of love, God of vengeance; God of mercy, God of jealousy. All aspects of God have their opposite in that same God. AND all his creation is a creation of opposites. Order, Chaos; Beauty, ugliness; rich, poor; old, young; light, dark; etc. cursing, blessing; Punishment, reward.
(TB) Wrong!
But I won't convince you in one small post. I do have a question for you though.
Why did Jesus die for us if we are only going to perish after we get to heaven? Why suffer all that stuff he suffered if our salvation is only for a breath of time?
(CHB) Don't know what you are talking about when you say we will perish after we get to heaven? Where did you get that idea? Also, our salvation will never end but ages and time will, that is where the difference is.
In Matt. 25 Jesus is talking about the kingdom which was promised to the Israelites. This kingdom has a beginning and an end. When all is in all then time will end and so will the kingdom. Jesus is speaking about this time frame. Do you remember that Jesus said "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel" (Matt. 15:24).
How do you reconcile Jesus statement about everlasting punishment which was directed at Israel with what Paul said about "ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED"?
(Rom. 11:25-27) "For I would not, brethern, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED: as it is written, There shall come out of sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:.. {it doesn't say here that they will turn away on their own}...For this is my covenant unto them, WHEN I SHALL TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS". It doesn't say "when they get rid of their sins".
You said I was wrong but didn't tell me where and how I was wrong.[/quote]
Right! Sorry 'bout that! I had to go to the hospital to bring my wife home. My mind has been slightly divided for a month now. I really do apologize.
You are correct, Paul does tell us "all Israel will be saved," But he tells us also who it is that constitutes "all Israel.
Rom 9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: 4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; 5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. 6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect.
For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
When the Jews refused to hear, God gave them a spirit of slumber, brought in the Gentiles by the gospel of Christ, and made them children of Israel by faith of Abraham.
"All Israel will be saved" is a reference to the fact all who have the faith in God like Abraham's faith, will be counted for the seed.
Rom 9:8 "That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed."
Gal 3:16 "Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ."
All who are in christ are the seed of Abraham; and are counted as though they were seed of Israel, in place of those who disbelieved among Israel's seed in the flesh. All Israel will be saved.
