Author Topic: Best argument AGAINST Universal "Salvation!"  (Read 12722 times)

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Offline CHB

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Re: Best argument AGAINST Universal "Salvation!"
« Reply #75 on: March 19, 2010, 06:50:22 PM »
Quote from: Theo Book
I don't think so. I think it is more like"I was drawn to her innocence" or "I am drawn to nature's beauty." It is more the concept of discovering what it is that appeals to the spirit of YOU.

Look at what you are saying here. You were drawn to her because of her innocence. Because nature is beautiful, you are drawn to it. You see neither one of these things starts with you. It is the same with us and God. We are drawn to him because of who and what he is and his influence. Don't you see here we are not the instigators he is.

I want to pose a question to you. If you believe that most will suffer in hell for all eternity, who paid that debt for us? If burning in hell is our punishment why isn't Jesus there now paying that debt.  Some one would have to be willing to take our place in hell in order for us to stay out of it, wouldn't thay? Jesus died and was resurrected, no more no less. Wouldn't someone have to pay for our eternal burning if that is our punishment? That debt has not been paid for anyone. If eternal hell is our punishment then we are all destined to go there, wouldn't you say?

CHB 

Offline willieH

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Re: Best argument AGAINST Universal "Salvation!"
« Reply #76 on: March 19, 2010, 08:24:42 PM »
willieH: Hi CHB...  :cloud9:

Quote from: Theo Book
I don't think so. I think it is more like"I was drawn to her innocence" or "I am drawn to nature's beauty." It is more the concept of discovering what it is that appeals to the spirit of YOU.

Look at what you are saying here. You were drawn to her because of her innocence. Because nature is beautiful, you are drawn to it. You see neither one of these things starts with you. It is the same with us and God. We are drawn to him because of who and what he is and his influence. Don't you see here we are not the instigators he is.

I want to pose a question to you. If you believe that most will suffer in hell for all eternity, who paid that debt for us? If burning in hell is our punishment why isn't Jesus there now paying that debt.  Some one would have to be willing to take our place in hell in order for us to stay out of it, wouldn't thay? Jesus died and was resurrected, no more no less. Wouldn't someone have to pay for our eternal burning if that is our punishment? That debt has not been paid for anyone. If eternal hell is our punishment then we are all destined to go there, wouldn't you say?

CHB 

Big amen on this, sis...  :thumbsup:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

Offline jabcat

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Re: Best argument AGAINST Universal "Salvation!"
« Reply #77 on: March 19, 2010, 09:03:54 PM »

Having the ability to resist and devise a way in your heart is not inherant to the ability to overcome Gods intention.

Clay resists being formed, that is why the potter has to put pressure in the right places and the right ways.   

While it may be said that we can always resist,  scripture tells us the nature of things.

 Ro 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

Pr 16:9 . A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.


Good post  :thumbsup:

Theo Book

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Re: Best argument AGAINST Universal "Salvation!"
« Reply #78 on: March 20, 2010, 11:38:05 AM »
Quote from: Theo Book
I don't think so. I think it is more like"I was drawn to her innocence" or "I am drawn to nature's beauty." It is more the concept of discovering what it is that appeals to the spirit of YOU.

Look at what you are saying here. You were drawn to her because of her innocence. Because nature is beautiful, you are drawn to it. You see neither one of these things starts with you.

THAT was my point. "If I be lifted up "I" will draw" all men "unto me." This is not a "dragging," it is a drawing.


Quote
It is the same with us and God. We are drawn to him because of who and what he is and his influence. Don't you see here we are not the instigators he is.

I want to pose a question to you. If you believe that most will suffer in hell for all eternity, who paid that debt for us? If burning in hell is our punishment why isn't Jesus there now paying that debt.  Some one would have to be willing to take our place in hell in order for us to stay out of it, wouldn't thay? Jesus died and was resurrected, no more no less. Wouldn't someone have to pay for our eternal burning if that is our punishment? That debt has not been paid for anyone. If eternal hell is our punishment then we are all destined to go there, wouldn't you say?

CHB  

Wrong!

But I won't convince you in one small post. I do have a question for you though.

Why did Jesus die for us if we are only going to perish after we get to heaven? Why suffer all that stuff he suffered if our salvation is only for a breath of time?
« Last Edit: March 20, 2010, 11:43:47 AM by Theo Book »

Theo Book

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Re: Best argument AGAINST Universal "Salvation!"
« Reply #79 on: March 20, 2010, 11:52:33 AM »
(legoman)
Quote

Rev 5:13 And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever."

I thought USalv didn't believe in eternal salvation.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2010, 02:50:49 PM by Theo Book »

Offline legoman

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Re: Best argument AGAINST Universal "Salvation!"
« Reply #80 on: March 20, 2010, 04:41:13 PM »
(legoman)
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Rev 5:13 And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever."

I thought USalv didn't believe in eternal salvation.

Ummm, I'm not sure what you mean here?

Believers in Christian UR understand that all will be saved eventually, and will live on endlessly with God; all will be made immortal, and God will be all in all.

Theo Book

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Re: Best argument AGAINST Universal "Salvation!"
« Reply #81 on: March 20, 2010, 04:55:36 PM »
(legoman)
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Rev 5:13 And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever."

I thought USalv didn't believe in eternal salvation.

Ummm, I'm not sure what you mean here?

Believers in Christian UR understand that all will be saved eventually, and will live on endlessly with God; all will be made immortal, and God will be all in all.

Yes, I understand that part. The part I don't understand is, there are so many arguments made on USAL boards that "aiwna" means for an age, not eternally, yet the same language is used to describe eternal life as is used to describe everlasting punishment.

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Look now at the Greek words that apply to this conundrum.
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into [aiwnion = accusative feminine singular adjective] everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life [aiwnion = accusative feminine singular adjective] eternal.

The punishment phase will last just as long as the salvation phase, or both will end at the same time.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2010, 05:02:33 PM by Theo Book »

Offline legoman

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Re: Best argument AGAINST Universal "Salvation!"
« Reply #82 on: March 20, 2010, 05:17:43 PM »
(legoman)
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Rev 5:13 And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever."

I thought USalv didn't believe in eternal salvation.

Ummm, I'm not sure what you mean here?

Believers in Christian UR understand that all will be saved eventually, and will live on endlessly with God; all will be made immortal, and God will be all in all.

Yes, I understand that part. The part I don't understand is, there are so many arguments made on USAL boards that "aiwna" means for an age, not eternally, yet the same language is used to describe eternal life as is used to describe everlasting punishment.

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Look now at the Greek words that apply to this conundrum.
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into [aiwnion = accusative feminine singular adjective] everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life [aiwnion = accusative feminine singular adjective] eternal.

The punishment phase will last just as long as the salvation phase, or both will end at the same time.

OK first of all, did you even contemplate the scriptures I posted previously that say everyone will bow and swear allegiance to God?  Does scripture contradict scripture?  You are running from point to point here.  You claimed people are forced to bow to God, but scripture plainly says otherwise.  All will swear allegiance to God, all will worship Him and praise Him joyfully, willingly.  Follow?  Now if that is so (and it is), how can some be sent into punishment for eternity?  Are they praising God joyfully while they are in hell?  Are you beginning to see the cracks in your doctrine yet?


Secondly, Matthew 25:46 has been addressed many times on this forum and in various articles on tentmaker and elsewhere.  Perhaps you should search it out a bit more.  The error you make here is the same error other opponents of UR make:

You assume "aionion" is referring to a duration; ie. if it doesn't mean eternal it must mean temporary, right?  Not so fast.  Aionion means neither eternal nor temporary.  Now there is debate on this, but in general, it means something along these lines:
- pertaining to eons
- continuing through eons
- relating to eons
- age-abiding/age-enduring

Now specifically on Matt 25:46.

The life is pertaining to eons, and the punishment is pertaining to eons.  Does this mean when the eons end, that the life ends?  NO, because elsewhere we are ALSO told that we are given immortality, and death is defeated, therefore ultimately no one will ever be dead permanently and all will be resurrected (all are made alive in Christ). 

As for the punishment, it is also pertaining to the eons.  But how do we know it stops when the eons are done?  Because no where does the bible speak of endless punishment.  It only ever speaks of punishment pertaining to eons or for eons.  The punishment is not "immortal" or "endless". 

Now some might argue and say God is also described as "aionion" or eonian.  Does this mean God "dies" when the eons end?  No of course not.  Again it only means God pertains and relates to these eons we live in right now.  But He also transcends them because He created the eons, and also He is immortal and endless.

Peace out...

Offline CHB

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Re: Best argument AGAINST Universal "Salvation!"
« Reply #83 on: March 20, 2010, 06:05:56 PM »
Quote from: Theo Book
I don't think so. I think it is more like"I was drawn to her innocence" or "I am drawn to nature's beauty." It is more the concept of discovering what it is that appeals to the spirit of YOU.

Look at what you are saying here. You were drawn to her because of her innocence. Because nature is beautiful, you are drawn to it. You see neither one of these things starts with you.

THAT was my point. "If I be lifted up "I" will draw" all men "unto me." This is not a "dragging," it is a drawing.


Quote
It is the same with us and God. We are drawn to him because of who and what he is and his influence. Don't you see here we are not the instigators he is.

I want to pose a question to you. If you believe that most will suffer in hell for all eternity, who paid that debt for us? If burning in hell is our punishment why isn't Jesus there now paying that debt.  Some one would have to be willing to take our place in hell in order for us to stay out of it, wouldn't thay? Jesus died and was resurrected, no more no less. Wouldn't someone have to pay for our eternal burning if that is our punishment? That debt has not been paid for anyone. If eternal hell is our punishment then we are all destined to go there, wouldn't you say?

CHB  

Wrong!

But I won't convince you in one small post. I do have a question for you though.

Why did Jesus die for us if we are only going to perish after we get to heaven? Why suffer all that stuff he suffered if our salvation is only for a breath of time?

Drag or draw, we will get there one way or the other. His drawing and draging is much stronger than I.

Don't know what you are talking about when you say we will perish after we get to heaven? Where did you get that idea? Also, our salvation will never end but ages and time will, that is where the difference is.

In Matt. 25 Jesus is talking about the kingdom which was promised to the Israelites. This kingdom has a beginning and an end. When all is in all then time will end and so will the kingdom. Jesus is speaking about this time frame. Do you remember that Jesus said "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel" (Matt. 15:24). 

How do you reconcile Jesus statement about everlasting punishment which was directed at Israel with what Paul said about "ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED"?

(Rom. 11:25-27) "For I would not, brethern, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED: as it is written, There shall come out of sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:.. {it doesn't say here that they will turn away on their own}...For this is my covenant unto  them, WHEN I SHALL TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS".   It doesn't say "when they get rid of their sins".

You said I was wrong but didn't tell me where and how I was wrong.

CHB


Theo Book

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Re: Best argument AGAINST Universal "Salvation!"
« Reply #84 on: March 20, 2010, 11:34:11 PM »
(TB)
Quote
I don't think so. I think it is more like"I was drawn to her innocence" or "I am drawn to nature's beauty." It is more the concept of discovering what it is that appeals to the spirit of YOU.

(CHB)Look at what you are saying here. You were drawn to her because of her innocence. Because nature is beautiful, you are drawn to it. You see neither one of these things starts with you.

(TB)THAT was my point. "If I be lifted up "I" will draw" all men "unto me." This is not a "dragging," it is a drawing.

(CHB) It is the same with us and God. We are drawn to him because of who and what he is and his influence. Don't you see here we are not the instigators he is.

Wait a minute. back up and reread the post. I already pointed it out to you, I will try again with brackets. "If I [Jesus] be lifted up, I[Jesus] will draw all men [you, me, all others] to me [Jesus]. Do you see it? HE draws US. I think we are in agreement here.

(CHB)
Quote
I want to pose a question to you. If you believe that most will suffer in hell for all eternity, who paid that debt for us? If burning in hell is our punishment why isn't Jesus there now paying that debt.

I think that's more than "a" question. I'll try to make it clear this time. First, I do not think in superlatives, like "most," because I think it will pretty well even out. I think the uses of numbers and superlatives in scripture is to catch our attention, because even scripture tells us the number of the saved is so inclusive it has not been numbered -
Rev 7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
 3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
 4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
 5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
 6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
 7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
 8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
 9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
 
(CHB)
Quote
Some one would have to be willing to take our place in hell in order for us to stay out of it, wouldn't thay?

Only if YOU were put in charge of guilt and penalties. God said that the blood of Jesus was sufficient to pay the ransom for all. Nothing has ever been said in scripture about anyone taking anyone else's place in the punishment. That was never the price for sin.

Death is the wages of sin, and Jesus "tasted of death for every man." THAT was sufficient.

(CHB)
Quote
Jesus died and was resurrected, no more no less. Wouldn't someone have to pay for our eternal burning if that is our punishment? That debt has not been paid for anyone. If eternal hell is our punishment then we are all destined to go there, wouldn't you say?

I shall try to clarify the issue.

Death is the wages of sin, announced to the living for the purpose of giving the living time to repent. some will, some won't. The decision is theirs.

Death carries two meanings in scripture; separation of man's  soul from his body is first; separation of man's soul from God, is second. This is covered in scripture by reference to first and second death.

The blood of Jesus is the blood of the covenant under which we live. THAT value has been stipulated, accomodated, and paid. That blood covers all the sins of men from the beginning. All other covenants have always looked forward to the cross of Christ. OUR
covenant looks back to that same cross.

God is a God of antitheses. God of love, God of vengeance; God of mercy, God of jealousy. All aspects of God have their opposite in that same God. AND all his creation is a creation of opposites. Order, Chaos; Beauty, ugliness; rich, poor; old, young; light, dark; etc. cursing, blessing; Punishment, reward.


(TB) Wrong!

But I won't convince you in one small post. I do have a question for you though.

Why did Jesus die for us if we are only going to perish after we get to heaven? Why suffer all that stuff he suffered if our salvation is only for a breath of time?

(CHB) Don't know what you are talking about when you say we will perish after we get to heaven? Where did you get that idea? Also, our salvation will never end but ages and time will, that is where the difference is.

In Matt. 25 Jesus is talking about the kingdom which was promised to the Israelites. This kingdom has a beginning and an end. When all is in all then time will end and so will the kingdom. Jesus is speaking about this time frame. Do you remember that Jesus said "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel" (Matt. 15:24). 

How do you reconcile Jesus statement about everlasting punishment which was directed at Israel with what Paul said about "ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED"?

(Rom. 11:25-27) "For I would not, brethern, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED: as it is written, There shall come out of sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:.. {it doesn't say here that they will turn away on their own}...For this is my covenant unto  them, WHEN I SHALL TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS".   It doesn't say "when they get rid of their sins".

You said I was wrong but didn't tell me where and how I was wrong.[/quote]

Right! Sorry 'bout that! I had to go to the hospital to bring my wife home. My mind has been slightly divided for a month now. I really do apologize.

You are correct, Paul does tell us "all Israel will be saved," But he tells us also who it is that constitutes "all Israel.

Rom 9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: 4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; 5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. 6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

When the Jews refused to hear, God gave them a spirit of slumber, brought in the Gentiles by the gospel of Christ, and made them children of Israel by faith of Abraham.
"All Israel will be saved" is a reference to the fact all who have the faith in God like Abraham's faith, will be counted for the seed.

Rom 9:8 "That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed."

Gal 3:16 "Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ."

All who are in christ are the seed of Abraham; and are counted as though they were seed of Israel, in place of those who disbelieved among Israel's seed in the flesh. All Israel will be saved.

Offline CHB

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Re: Best argument AGAINST Universal "Salvation!"
« Reply #85 on: March 21, 2010, 12:59:09 AM »
Quote from: Theo
Only if YOU were put in charge of guilt and penalties. God said that the blood of Jesus was sufficient to pay the ransom for all. Nothing has ever been said in scripture about anyone taking anyone else's place in the punishment. That was never the price for sin.

Death is the wages of sin, and Jesus "tasted of death for every man." THAT was sufficient.

There you go!!!! Amen. The wages of sin is DEATH not an everlasting tormenting state.

If the wages of sin is death, and Jesus tasted death for every man, please tell me, what are people going to hell for?

I won't get into Covenants much, although I will say I am not under any Covenant, the Covenants were for Israel, not Gentile as you quoted in your post. 

Quote from: Theo Book
Rom 9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: 4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises

Sorry about your wife being in the hospital. Both of you are in my prayers.

CHB


Theo Book

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Re: Best argument AGAINST Universal "Salvation!"
« Reply #86 on: March 21, 2010, 03:26:19 AM »
(Theo)
Quote
Only if YOU were put in charge of guilt and penalties. God said that the blood of Jesus was sufficient to pay the ransom for all. Nothing has ever been said in scripture about anyone taking anyone else's place in the punishment. That was never the price for sin.

Death is the wages of sin, and Jesus "tasted of death for every man." THAT was sufficient.

(CHB)There you go!!!! Amen. The wages of sin is DEATH not an everlasting tormenting state.

If the wages of sin is death, and Jesus tasted death for every man, please tell me, what are people going to hell for?

I won't get into Covenants much, although I will say I am not under any Covenant, the Covenants were for Israel, not Gentile as you quoted in your post.  

(Theo)
Rom 9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: 4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises

Under the covenant of grace, there are no gentiles and jews; all are one in Chrtist Jesus.

(CHB)
Sorry about your wife being in the hospital. Both of you are in my prayers.

CHB

Thank you. You are very gracious.





« Last Edit: March 21, 2010, 11:59:14 AM by Theo Book »

Offline willieH

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Re: Best argument AGAINST Universal "Salvation!"
« Reply #87 on: March 21, 2010, 03:41:29 AM »
All who are in christ are the seed of Abraham; and are counted as though they were seed of Israel, in place of those who disbelieved among Israel's seed in the flesh. All Israel will be saved.

1 Cor 15:22 -- As IN ADAM ...ALL... die, ...so IN CHRIST shall ...ALL... [same "all"] be made alive.

This can be stated as follows with the SAME meaning:  Just AS ALL DIE in ADAM, so shall ALL shall made alive IN CHRIST.

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

Theo Book

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Re: Best argument AGAINST Universal "Salvation!"
« Reply #88 on: March 21, 2010, 12:03:41 PM »
All who are in christ are the seed of Abraham; and are counted as though they were seed of Israel, in place of those who disbelieved among Israel's seed in the flesh. All Israel will be saved.

1 Cor 15:22 -- As IN ADAM ...ALL... die, ...so IN CHRIST shall ...ALL... [same "all"] be made alive.

This can be stated as follows with the SAME meaning:  Just AS ALL DIE in ADAM, so shall ALL shall made alive IN CHRIST.

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

NEWS FLASH! NEWS FLASH! NEWS FLASH!
I Cor 15: 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

This is telling us "All THAT ARE IN" Christ shall be made alive. All will be saved, IN CHRIST. If you are not IN CHRIST, you lose.

Offline legoman

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Re: Best argument AGAINST Universal "Salvation!"
« Reply #89 on: March 21, 2010, 04:08:38 PM »
All who are in christ are the seed of Abraham; and are counted as though they were seed of Israel, in place of those who disbelieved among Israel's seed in the flesh. All Israel will be saved.

1 Cor 15:22 -- As IN ADAM ...ALL... die, ...so IN CHRIST shall ...ALL... [same "all"] be made alive.

This can be stated as follows with the SAME meaning:  Just AS ALL DIE in ADAM, so shall ALL shall made alive IN CHRIST.

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

NEWS FLASH! NEWS FLASH! NEWS FLASH!
I Cor 15: 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

This is telling us "All THAT ARE IN" Christ shall be made alive. All will be saved, IN CHRIST. If you are not IN CHRIST, you lose.

The verse says ALL will be made alive in Christ, NOT All in Christ will be made alive.

Theo, you change the order of the words and the meaning of the verse.

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Best argument AGAINST Universal "Salvation!"
« Reply #90 on: March 21, 2010, 04:58:06 PM »
All who are in christ are the seed of Abraham; and are counted as though they were seed of Israel, in place of those who disbelieved among Israel's seed in the flesh. All Israel will be saved.

1 Cor 15:22 -- As IN ADAM ...ALL... die, ...so IN CHRIST shall ...ALL... [same "all"] be made alive.

This can be stated as follows with the SAME meaning:  Just AS ALL DIE in ADAM, so shall ALL shall made alive IN CHRIST.

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

NEWS FLASH! NEWS FLASH! NEWS FLASH!
I Cor 15: 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

This is telling us "All THAT ARE IN" Christ shall be made alive. All will be saved, IN CHRIST. If you are not IN CHRIST, you lose.


The verse says nothing of the kind concerning  "losing".

Quote
G5618  hosper  hoce'-per

from G5613 and G4007;

just as, i.e. exactly like:--(even, like) as.
In the ancient greek this word proceeeds all others in the verse. 


EXACTLY LIKE  in adam ALL die ,  SO in Christ ALL shall be made alive.




Theo Book

  • Guest
Re: Best argument AGAINST Universal "Salvation!"
« Reply #91 on: March 21, 2010, 05:19:19 PM »
All who are in christ are the seed of Abraham; and are counted as though they were seed of Israel, in place of those who disbelieved among Israel's seed in the flesh. All Israel will be saved.

1 Cor 15:22 -- As IN ADAM ...ALL... die, ...so IN CHRIST shall ...ALL... [same "all"] be made alive.

This can be stated as follows with the SAME meaning:  Just AS ALL DIE in ADAM, so shall ALL shall made alive IN CHRIST.

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

NEWS FLASH! NEWS FLASH! NEWS FLASH!
I Cor 15: 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

This is telling us "All THAT ARE IN" Christ shall be made alive. All will be saved, IN CHRIST. If you are not IN CHRIST, you lose.


The verse says nothing of the kind concerning  "losing".

Quote
G5618  hosper  hoce'-per

from G5613 and G4007;

just as, i.e. exactly like:--(even, like) as.
In the ancient greek this word proceeeds all others in the verse. 


EXACTLY LIKE  in adam ALL die ,  SO in Christ ALL shall be made alive.



Consider; Apes and monkeys are not covered in this covenant because they were never "in Adam." In like manner, all who are not "In Christ" are not covered by the blood of the covenant. We are baptized into Christ, and as many as are baptized into Christ, do put on Christ.

Theo Book

  • Guest
Re: Best argument AGAINST Universal "Salvation!"
« Reply #92 on: March 21, 2010, 05:22:35 PM »


(theo)
Quote
All who are in christ are the seed of Abraham[/b][/color]; and are counted as though they were seed of Israel, in place of those who disbelieved among Israel's seed in the flesh. All Israel will be saved.

(legoman)1 Cor 15:22 -- As IN ADAM ...ALL... die, ...so IN CHRIST shall ...ALL... [same "all"] be made alive.

This can be stated as follows with the SAME meaning:  Just AS ALL DIE in ADAM, so shall ALL shall made alive IN CHRIST.

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

NEWS FLASH! NEWS FLASH! NEWS FLASH!
I Cor 15: 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

This is telling us "All THAT ARE IN" Christ shall be made alive. All will be saved, IN CHRIST. If you are not IN CHRIST, you lose.

The verse says ALL will be made alive in Christ, NOT All in Christ will be made alive.

Theo, you change the order of the words and the meaning of the verse.

Fair assessment.

Consider John 1:1 in which the natural Greek word order is changed to make proper grammatical sense in translated English.

So also, as Apes and monkeys are not covered in the covenant of Christ's blood because theya re not "in Adam; so also, those who are not "IN CHRIST" are not covered in the blood of the covenant, which is the blood of Christ. We get into Christ by being baptized into Christ. All God's children will be saved IN CHRIST. But they must be "IN CHRIST" to become a child of God.

Paul Hazelwood

  • Guest
Re: Best argument AGAINST Universal "Salvation!"
« Reply #93 on: March 21, 2010, 05:33:04 PM »
All who are in christ are the seed of Abraham; and are counted as though they were seed of Israel, in place of those who disbelieved among Israel's seed in the flesh. All Israel will be saved.

1 Cor 15:22 -- As IN ADAM ...ALL... die, ...so IN CHRIST shall ...ALL... [same "all"] be made alive.

This can be stated as follows with the SAME meaning:  Just AS ALL DIE in ADAM, so shall ALL shall made alive IN CHRIST.

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

NEWS FLASH! NEWS FLASH! NEWS FLASH!
I Cor 15: 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

This is telling us "All THAT ARE IN" Christ shall be made alive. All will be saved, IN CHRIST. If you are not IN CHRIST, you lose.


The verse says nothing of the kind concerning  "losing".

Quote
G5618  hosper  hoce'-per

from G5613 and G4007;

just as, i.e. exactly like:--(even, like) as.
In the ancient greek this word proceeeds all others in the verse. 


EXACTLY LIKE  in adam ALL die ,  SO in Christ ALL shall be made alive.



Consider; Apes and monkeys are not covered in this covenant because they were never "in Adam." In like manner, all who are not "In Christ" are not covered by the blood of the covenant. We are baptized into Christ, and as many as are baptized into Christ, do put on Christ.



The verse does not contain the words "all who are not in christ" so why then should I consider that they are?


Paul Hazelwood

  • Guest
Re: Best argument AGAINST Universal "Salvation!"
« Reply #94 on: March 21, 2010, 05:41:20 PM »
All who are in christ are the seed of Abraham; and are counted as though they were seed of Israel, in place of those who disbelieved among Israel's seed in the flesh. All Israel will be saved.

1 Cor 15:22 -- As IN ADAM ...ALL... die, ...so IN CHRIST shall ...ALL... [same "all"] be made alive.

This can be stated as follows with the SAME meaning:  Just AS ALL DIE in ADAM, so shall ALL shall made alive IN CHRIST.

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

NEWS FLASH! NEWS FLASH! NEWS FLASH!
I Cor 15: 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

This is telling us "All THAT ARE IN" Christ shall be made alive. All will be saved, IN CHRIST. If you are not IN CHRIST, you lose.


The verse says nothing of the kind concerning  "losing".

Quote
G5618  hosper  hoce'-per

from G5613 and G4007;

just as, i.e. exactly like:--(even, like) as.
In the ancient greek this word proceeeds all others in the verse. 


EXACTLY LIKE  in adam ALL die ,  SO in Christ ALL shall be made alive.



Consider; Apes and monkeys are not covered in this covenant because they were never "in Adam." In like manner, all who are not "In Christ" are not covered by the blood of the covenant. We are baptized into Christ, and as many as are baptized into Christ, do put on Christ.


I think we can find that apes and monkeys do not apply to this passage,  and considering that will not change the meaning.  Apes and monkeys are addressed in a general way in another passage.

Ac 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of ALL things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.



Does ALL have the context of ALL of a certain nature here?  I do not believe it does. 

Because it is speaking of all creation.

Ro 8:21 that the creation itself, also, shall be freed from the slavery of corruption into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
 


Theo Book

  • Guest
Re: Best argument AGAINST Universal "Salvation!"
« Reply #95 on: March 21, 2010, 05:44:22 PM »
All who are in christ are the seed of Abraham; and are counted as though they were seed of Israel, in place of those who disbelieved among Israel's seed in the flesh. All Israel will be saved.

1 Cor 15:22 -- As IN ADAM ...ALL... die, ...so IN CHRIST shall ...ALL... [same "all"] be made alive.

This can be stated as follows with the SAME meaning:  Just AS ALL DIE in ADAM, so shall ALL shall made alive IN CHRIST.

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

NEWS FLASH! NEWS FLASH! NEWS FLASH!
I Cor 15: 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

This is telling us "All THAT ARE IN" Christ shall be made alive. All will be saved, IN CHRIST. If you are not IN CHRIST, you lose.


The verse says nothing of the kind concerning  "losing".

Quote
G5618  hosper  hoce'-per

from G5613 and G4007;

just as, i.e. exactly like:--(even, like) as.
In the ancient greek this word proceeeds all others in the verse. 


EXACTLY LIKE  in adam ALL die ,  SO in Christ ALL shall be made alive.



Consider; Apes and monkeys are not covered in this covenant because they were never "in Adam." In like manner, all who are not "In Christ" are not covered by the blood of the covenant. We are baptized into Christ, and as many as are baptized into Christ, do put on Christ.

The verse does not contain the words "all who are not in christ" so why then should I consider that they are?


Fair question. If you are married (I can say this because I don't know you) and you are standing there talking to your wife, and I approach you in a panic, and tell you your wife was just killed when a bus fell off a bridge into the river below and drowned, you would know I was wrong because she is right there with you engaged in conversaton with you.
But, since the news report concluded "All were killed" I assumed that meant everybody in the world, not just those in the bus, because after all, he did say "all."

No, my friend, when we are told "all will be saved in Christ" that means all who are NOT in Christ will NOT be saved.

Consider it.

Theo Book

  • Guest
Re: Best argument AGAINST Universal "Salvation!"
« Reply #96 on: March 21, 2010, 05:47:42 PM »
All who are in christ are the seed of Abraham; and are counted as though they were seed of Israel, in place of those who disbelieved among Israel's seed in the flesh. All Israel will be saved.

1 Cor 15:22 -- As IN ADAM ...ALL... die, ...so IN CHRIST shall ...ALL... [same "all"] be made alive.

This can be stated as follows with the SAME meaning:  Just AS ALL DIE in ADAM, so shall ALL shall made alive IN CHRIST.

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

NEWS FLASH! NEWS FLASH! NEWS FLASH!
I Cor 15: 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

This is telling us "All THAT ARE IN" Christ shall be made alive. All will be saved, IN CHRIST. If you are not IN CHRIST, you lose.


The verse says nothing of the kind concerning  "losing".

Quote
G5618  hosper  hoce'-per

from G5613 and G4007;

just as, i.e. exactly like:--(even, like) as.
In the ancient greek this word proceeeds all others in the verse. 


EXACTLY LIKE  in adam ALL die ,  SO in Christ ALL shall be made alive.



Consider; Apes and monkeys are not covered in this covenant because they were never "in Adam." In like manner, all who are not "In Christ" are not covered by the blood of the covenant. We are baptized into Christ, and as many as are baptized into Christ, do put on Christ.


I think we can find that apes and monkeys do not apply to this passage,  and considering that will not change the meaning.  Apes and monkeys are addressed in a general way in another passage.

Ac 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of ALL things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.



Does ALL have the context of ALL of a certain nature here?  I do not believe it does. 

Because it is speaking of all creation.

Ro 8:21 that the creation itself, also, shall be freed from the slavery of corruption into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
 



I think that is a reach. paul "preached to the whole creation" but I think he means "all men." I don't think he preached the gospel of Christ to chipmonks and squirrels.

But back to the issue; ONLY those "IN Christ" will be saved, of all those under the new covenant.

Paul Hazelwood

  • Guest
Re: Best argument AGAINST Universal "Salvation!"
« Reply #97 on: March 21, 2010, 06:04:46 PM »
All who are in christ are the seed of Abraham; and are counted as though they were seed of Israel, in place of those who disbelieved among Israel's seed in the flesh. All Israel will be saved.

1 Cor 15:22 -- As IN ADAM ...ALL... die, ...so IN CHRIST shall ...ALL... [same "all"] be made alive.

This can be stated as follows with the SAME meaning:  Just AS ALL DIE in ADAM, so shall ALL shall made alive IN CHRIST.

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

NEWS FLASH! NEWS FLASH! NEWS FLASH!
I Cor 15: 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

This is telling us "All THAT ARE IN" Christ shall be made alive. All will be saved, IN CHRIST. If you are not IN CHRIST, you lose.


The verse says nothing of the kind concerning  "losing".

Quote
G5618  hosper  hoce'-per

from G5613 and G4007;

just as, i.e. exactly like:--(even, like) as.
In the ancient greek this word proceeeds all others in the verse. 


EXACTLY LIKE  in adam ALL die ,  SO in Christ ALL shall be made alive.



Consider; Apes and monkeys are not covered in this covenant because they were never "in Adam." In like manner, all who are not "In Christ" are not covered by the blood of the covenant. We are baptized into Christ, and as many as are baptized into Christ, do put on Christ.

The verse does not contain the words "all who are not in christ" so why then should I consider that they are?


Fair question. If you are married (I can say this because I don't know you) and you are standing there talking to your wife, and I approach you in a panic, and tell you your wife was just killed when a bus fell off a bridge into the river below and drowned, you would know I was wrong because she is right there with you engaged in conversaton with you.
But, since the news report concluded "All were killed" I assumed that meant everybody in the world, not just those in the bus, because after all, he did say "all."

No, my friend, when we are told "all will be saved in Christ" that means all who are NOT in Christ will NOT be saved.

Consider it.


I understand the analogy, but that analogy is not scripture so it does not apply to that verse.  You are declaring what it means and since that verse is not worded how you are talking I have no reason to consider it.  Give me a scriptural reason to reword the verse as you are doing.


Paul Hazelwood

  • Guest
Re: Best argument AGAINST Universal "Salvation!"
« Reply #98 on: March 21, 2010, 06:11:03 PM »
All who are in christ are the seed of Abraham; and are counted as though they were seed of Israel, in place of those who disbelieved among Israel's seed in the flesh. All Israel will be saved.

1 Cor 15:22 -- As IN ADAM ...ALL... die, ...so IN CHRIST shall ...ALL... [same "all"] be made alive.

This can be stated as follows with the SAME meaning:  Just AS ALL DIE in ADAM, so shall ALL shall made alive IN CHRIST.

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

NEWS FLASH! NEWS FLASH! NEWS FLASH!
I Cor 15: 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

This is telling us "All THAT ARE IN" Christ shall be made alive. All will be saved, IN CHRIST. If you are not IN CHRIST, you lose.


The verse says nothing of the kind concerning  "losing".

Quote
G5618  hosper  hoce'-per

from G5613 and G4007;

just as, i.e. exactly like:--(even, like) as.
In the ancient greek this word proceeeds all others in the verse. 


EXACTLY LIKE  in adam ALL die ,  SO in Christ ALL shall be made alive.



Consider; Apes and monkeys are not covered in this covenant because they were never "in Adam." In like manner, all who are not "In Christ" are not covered by the blood of the covenant. We are baptized into Christ, and as many as are baptized into Christ, do put on Christ.


I think we can find that apes and monkeys do not apply to this passage,  and considering that will not change the meaning.  Apes and monkeys are addressed in a general way in another passage.

Ac 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of ALL things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.



Does ALL have the context of ALL of a certain nature here?  I do not believe it does. 

Because it is speaking of all creation.

Ro 8:21 that the creation itself, also, shall be freed from the slavery of corruption into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
 



I think that is a reach. paul "preached to the whole creation" but I think he means "all men." I don't think he preached the gospel of Christ to chipmonks and squirrels.

But back to the issue; ONLY those "IN Christ" will be saved, of all those under the new covenant.


This is part of the issue, you brought up monkeys and apes as an attempt to prove a verse means what you say it means, I did not.

So do you think the restitution of all things means only people as well?   Please provide the scriptural support that we need to infer that "all things" somehow means  "just humans".


You think this verse means just men

Ro 8:22 For we are aware that the entire creation is groaning and travailing together until now.






Theo Book

  • Guest
Re: Best argument AGAINST Universal "Salvation!"
« Reply #99 on: March 21, 2010, 10:13:43 PM »
All who are in christ are the seed of Abraham; and are counted as though they were seed of Israel, in place of those who disbelieved among Israel's seed in the flesh. All Israel will be saved.

1 Cor 15:22 -- As IN ADAM ...ALL... die, ...so IN CHRIST shall ...ALL... [same "all"] be made alive.

This can be stated as follows with the SAME meaning:  Just AS ALL DIE in ADAM, so shall ALL shall made alive IN CHRIST.

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

NEWS FLASH! NEWS FLASH! NEWS FLASH!
I Cor 15: 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

This is telling us "All THAT ARE IN" Christ shall be made alive. All will be saved, IN CHRIST. If you are not IN CHRIST, you lose.


The verse says nothing of the kind concerning  "losing".

Quote
G5618  hosper  hoce'-per

from G5613 and G4007;

just as, i.e. exactly like:--(even, like) as.
In the ancient greek this word proceeeds all others in the verse. 


EXACTLY LIKE  in adam ALL die ,  SO in Christ ALL shall be made alive.



Consider; Apes and monkeys are not covered in this covenant because they were never "in Adam." In like manner, all who are not "In Christ" are not covered by the blood of the covenant. We are baptized into Christ, and as many as are baptized into Christ, do put on Christ.

The verse does not contain the words "all who are not in christ" so why then should I consider that they are?


Fair question. If you are married (I can say this because I don't know you) and you are standing there talking to your wife, and I approach you in a panic, and tell you your wife was just killed when a bus fell off a bridge into the river below and drowned, you would know I was wrong because she is right there with you engaged in conversaton with you.
But, since the news report concluded "All were killed" I assumed that meant everybody in the world, not just those in the bus, because after all, he did say "all."

No, my friend, when we are told "all will be saved in Christ" that means all who are NOT in Christ will NOT be saved.

Consider it.


I understand the analogy, but that analogy is not scripture so it does not apply to that verse.  You are declaring what it means and since that verse is not worded how you are talking I have no reason to consider it.  Give me a scriptural reason to reword the verse as you are doing.

Just did.