Author Topic: Best argument AGAINST Universal "Salvation!"  (Read 10728 times)

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Theo Book

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Re: Best argument AGAINST Universal "Salvation!"
« Reply #50 on: March 18, 2010, 05:58:28 AM »

Quote from: Theo Book
Tell me one thing CHB - will God condemn evil men or Will God justify the wicked?

Hi Theo,

(Rom 3:24) Being JUSTIFIED FREELY BY HIS GRACE through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.

(Psalms 93:15)  But judgment shall return unto righteousness;
(Hos. 10:12) for it is time to seek the Lord, till HE COME AND RAIN RIGHTEOUSNESS UPON YOU.
Can't remember where to find this right now but it says "when the Lord is in the earth the inhabitants will learn righteousness"

[Isa 26:9-10]

Quote
To be justified and righteous is a gift of God just like everything else is.

(Phil. 2:10) All will one day bow the knee and confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.

CHB

Agreed! There is a difference however, between being justified and being brought to justification.

Just as Christ said, "When I am lifted up I will draw all men to me." There is action in the verb "draw." A response is required. much like a magnet draws mettle, the metal moves to the magnet. Christ was on that cross, to which we move when we repent.

And you are correct, every knee and head will react to the Lordship of Jesus. Voluntary in this life or forced to in the next. Now it is an option, in the next life it will be mandatory.

Offline jabcat

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Re: Best argument AGAINST Universal "Salvation!"
« Reply #51 on: March 18, 2010, 06:12:43 AM »
Hi Theo.  I'd like to ask if you could see the possibility of everything that is not of God, will be condemned and destroyed - but with the end result being repentance, cleansing, and finally reconciliation and redemption?  Maybe don't get stuck on "you think everybody and everything's already OK, and I can't buy that".  See, I don't either.  I just believe God has a process, a plan for the ages in which all that's not of Him is judged, destroyed, corrected, but then all gathered together in Jesus - through faith in Him, when every knee eventually bows and every tongue confesses.  If one can get past the "but what about consequences, judgment, punishment", etc., and say "yes, those exist"...but what's the purpose, what's God's ultimate plan, and what's the end result?  If one can get to that point, then there are a couple hundred scriptures I could share with you that will then make a whole lot of sense and reconcile to the fact of a loving God, who will rescue His creation.  James.
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline CHB

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Re: Best argument AGAINST Universal "Salvation!"
« Reply #52 on: March 18, 2010, 06:52:42 AM »
Quote from: Theo Book
Just as Christ said, "When I am lifted up I will draw all men to me." There is action in the verb "draw." A response is required. much like a magnet draws mettle, the metal moves to the magnet. Christ was on that cross, to which we move when we repent.

And you are correct, every knee and head will react to the Lordship of Jesus. Voluntary in this life or forced to in the next. Now it is an option, in the next life it will be mandatory.

The right word here is DRAG not draw.  I think when all is said and done that everyone will bow the knee voluntarily and no one can say that Jesus Christ is Lord but by the Holy Spirit (1Cor. 12:3) Middle of verse. "that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit".

Can metal resist the power of a magnet?

CHB

SteveW

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Re: Best argument AGAINST Universal "Salvation!"
« Reply #53 on: March 18, 2010, 08:34:14 AM »
Thanks for the background Theo and I have to say, I do really appreciate the tone of your posts.  They aren't inflammatory at all and really foster honest sharing.

I think I am understanding your argument better now and here is my off the cuff response.

1.  I don't believe you can treat God's interaction with Adam like you do the other old testament covenants.  God said to Adam "you will surely die".  Yet obviously the ramifications for Adam of his sin applied to not only him but to all of his offspring for as long as there were men.  Regardless of the terms actually explained to Adam, this was the consequence.  It was a universal (for all men) consequence and no man is exempt from it.

2.  Christ is contrasted specifically to Adam and His work is painted as specifically contradicting the consequences of Adam's action.  "The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification" (Rom 5). Paul doesn't make a distinction here.  He doesn't say the judment of death followed Adam's sin and the judgment of eternal damnation followed the sin of not believing on Christ.  I think it is clear he has one judgment in mind.  What that judgment is (death or eternal torment) is what we are debating.

3.  When portraying the final judgment John makes no distinction between the covenants.  In Rev 20 the sea and death and hades give up their dead and they are all judged, without regard to what covenant they were under.  Then death and hades are thrown into the lake of fire and if anyone's name is not in the book of life they are thrown into the lake of fire.  Whatever this means there is absolutely nothing to indicate that it is all the dead.

4.  The Bible doesn't indicate separate judgments for separate covenants.  It indicates an ultimate judgment for all.

5.  Ergo, the idea of God not warning anyone until the time of Christ of the ultimate consequences of Adams sin (if they were eternal torment and not death) for all man kind, not just those who died since the time of Christ, is a hard pill to swallow.

I swallowed that pill, and the pill of a loving God sending most of mankind to hell for eternity, faithfully for a long time.  Thank God that biblically I can choose not to swallow it anymore!

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Best argument AGAINST Universal "Salvation!"
« Reply #54 on: March 18, 2010, 08:38:48 AM »
Can metal resist the power of a magnet?
You know that's kind of funny. I don't know the word for it. Precious perhaps?
Precious metals like gold and silver aren't pulled by the magnet. But scrap metal is :winkgrin:
Who you think are sinners and who are the saints mrs Goldilocks  :laughing7:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline jabcat

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Re: Best argument AGAINST Universal "Salvation!"
« Reply #55 on: March 18, 2010, 09:08:15 AM »
Quote from: Theo Book
Just as Christ said, "When I am lifted up I will draw all men to me." There is action in the verb "draw." A response is required. much like a magnet draws mettle, the metal moves to the magnet. Christ was on that cross, to which we move when we repent.

And you are correct, every knee and head will react to the Lordship of Jesus. Voluntary in this life or forced to in the next. Now it is an option, in the next life it will be mandatory.

The right word here is DRAG not draw.  I think when all is said and done that everyone will bow the knee voluntarily and no one can say that Jesus Christ is Lord but by the Holy Spirit (1Cor. 12:3) Middle of verse. "that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit".

Can metal resist the power of a magnet?

CHB

Hi C.  I SO agree with you.  I'd like to add something cool though to your already good post.  I've checked it out a bit, and an even more literal translation is "IN the Holy Spirit" - in my view, an even stronger statement of fact!   :thumbsup:
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Best argument AGAINST Universal "Salvation!"
« Reply #56 on: March 18, 2010, 09:30:14 AM »
more literal translation is "IN the Holy Spirit" - in my view, an even stronger statement of fact!
Yep. A sinner needs Jesus but obviously is without HS. And without HS the sinner can't call upon Jesus. So mankind is trapped in a circle only God can break.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline rosered

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Re: Best argument AGAINST Universal "Salvation!"
« Reply #57 on: March 18, 2010, 05:14:13 PM »
more literal translation is "IN the Holy Spirit" - in my view, an even stronger statement of fact!
Yep. A sinner needs Jesus but obviously is without HS. And without HS the sinner can't call upon Jesus. So mankind is trapped in a circle only God can break.

  exactly
  its how one sets his heart !   
to understand  the ways of God or rebel  , that simple , I wonder  if this is true ?
  many scriptures  speak of our hearts being set  in one direction or the other  and  you can always turn this heart around  towards the Lord  , that is Gods mercy  for all mankind  :HeartThrob:

 
Psa 78:8 And might not be as their fathers, a stubborn and rebellious generation; a generation [that] set not their heart aright, and whose spirit was not stedfast with God.
 

Ecc 3:11 He hath made every [thing] beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.
 

Ecc 8:11 Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil.
Sgs 8:6 Set me as a seal upon thine heart, as a seal upon thine arm: for love [is] strong as death; jealousy [is] cruel as the grave: the coals thereof [are] coals of fire, [which hath a] most vehement flame.

 love  was what Jesus  power was over death ! forgive them Father for they know not what they do ....  :icon_flower:

 Daniel set his heart to be chastened  of the Lord and to understand ,  thats when the Lord blessed him and all whom  knew of Daniel and His  MIGHTY GOD
 

Dan 10:12 Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words.
 and this goes on throughout the WORD OF GOD
 
2Ch 7:14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
 
 Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and [their] ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with [their] eyes, and hear with [their] ears, and should understand with [their] heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
 CONVERTED Strong's G1994 - epistrephō 1) transitively

a) to turn to
1) to the worship of the true God

b) to cause to return, to bring back

1) to the love and obedience of God

2) to the love for the children

3) to love wisdom and righteousness

2) intransitively

a) to turn to one's self

b) to turn one's self about, turn back

c) to return, turn back, come back



Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Best argument AGAINST Universal "Salvation!"
« Reply #58 on: March 18, 2010, 05:37:36 PM »
more literal translation is "IN the Holy Spirit" - in my view, an even stronger statement of fact!
Yep. A sinner needs Jesus but obviously is without HS. And without HS the sinner can't call upon Jesus. So mankind is trapped in a circle only God can break.
exactly
 its how one sets his heart !
Doesn't it mean how God sets (hardens) the heart?

I think this is how Father breaks the above mentioend circle:
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ....

I think that declaring is breaking the circle by sending the HS.... :dontknow:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline rosered

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Re: Best argument AGAINST Universal "Salvation!"
« Reply #59 on: March 18, 2010, 06:14:20 PM »
more literal translation is "IN the Holy Spirit" - in my view, an even stronger statement of fact!
Yep. A sinner needs Jesus but obviously is without HS. And without HS the sinner can't call upon Jesus. So mankind is trapped in a circle only God can break.
exactly
 its how one sets his heart !
Doesn't it mean how God sets (hardens) the heart?

I think this is how Father breaks the above mentioend circle:
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ....

I think that declaring is breaking the circle by sending the HS.... :dontknow:
  thats right Bro T ,
  but the HOLY SPIRIT  has to clean up the temple first to remove the sin /error for it to dwell
  you gotta want it to  :thumbsup: and  ask   GOD  and it shall be given !

 HS  is everything , all the fruits grow in the garden of GOD you  , the kingdom of God is on you and in you than ....
 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all [men] liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. 


 Jam 1:6   But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. 

 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
 
  faith Kicks it all in !   rember the man who asked Jesus to increse his faith ?
  good example of getting things done

Offline jabcat

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Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline willieH

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Re: Best argument AGAINST Universal "Salvation!"
« Reply #61 on: March 19, 2010, 05:33:40 AM »
willieH: Hi Theo...  :happygrin:

willieH: Hi TB...  :cloud9:

You are quite the busy "new guy" eh?  :laughing7:

Do you think you have made any headway here in bringing your sorrowful position?  :dontknow:

I'm not CHB... but I will be answering this question you posed below to her:

Tell me one thing CHB - will God condemn evil men or Will God justify the wicked?

FIRST -- The answer to this question is HE shall JUSTIFY, for it is written:

Rom 5:18 -- therefore, as by the OFFENSE of ONE judgment came upon ALL MEN to CONDEMNATION... even so, by the RIGHTEOUSNESS of ONE, the free gift came upon ALL MEN, unto JUSTIFICATION of LIFE

Why you ask?  :Chinscratch:

Quote
Because God established a standard long ago that has not changed. There is a difference between justifying the wicked, and bringing the wicked to justification.

You cut off the point I was making (about GRACE and JUSTIFICATION) RIGHT in the middle of it!  :laughing7:  which went on to say IN the same CONTEXT:

Quote from: willieH
Why you ask?  :Chinscratch:

Rom 5:20 -- moreover the Law entered, that the OFFENSE might abound... But, where SIN abounded [in any amount or degree - for none is specified] ...GRACE did ...MUCH ...MORE ...ABOUND!

ALL men are DESPARATELY WICKED of HEART -- Jer 17:9 -- ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of GOD -- Rom 3:23 -- there is NONE RIGHTEOUS, no NOT ONE -- Rom 3:10-13 -- Psalm 14:1-3

ALL includes you and I and everyone else...  :dontknow:

Then YOU, ...who are the "big advocate" of the "NEW CONTRACT" (NT), quote the OLD ONE to try to establish your foolishness!   :mshock:

[Exo 23:7...for I will not justify the wicked.] and also says anyone who does so is abominable to the Lord [Prov 17:15 He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD.]


God does not JUSTIFY the WICKEDNESS of SIN... but SAVES the ones which become enveloped IN IT... which are so noted as WICKED, and SINNERS... 

Saving even ONE sinner... means that GOD in His GREAT and INFINITE WISDOM, has established DIVINE JUSTIFICATION of SINNERS, Theo... one of which is YOU!   :mpardon:

How is YOUR SIN, which is WICKED... "justified", TB?  Is it "justified", because YOU did something in that process?  For if YOU DID -- ANYTHING which resulted in YOUR SALVATION, and without it, you are NOT SAVED, ...then YOU are your own Savior...  :sigh:

Well, I have already plainly explained it to you, and you refuse to observe that explanation... full of MUCH SPEAKING --  :blahgreen: -- but sorrowfully short on the quantity needed in LEARNING, ...of LISTENING...  :doh:

As I noted... GRACE MUCH MORE abounds... than does ANY and ALL -- SIN --  :nod: -- John 1:29

But the BIBLICAL PREMISE of GRACE (which JUSTIFIES) is INFINITELY more POWERFUL and ABUNDANT than SIN, ...does not "fit" to well, into your BAD NEWS message, does it brother, Theo?  :pitiful:

So let's face it bro, ...you shall persist in rejecting that [GRACE] which you seek to embrace... and bring the WORLD that GOD SO LOVES, ...an INCOMPLETE, UNVICTORIOUS and Sorrow filled excuse of a message you name as "the gospel", ...in the stead of the JOY which permeates the true message, of the COMPLETE VICTORY of the Cross of JESUS CHRIST... the SAVIOR of the WORLD -- 1 John 4:14  :bgdance:

...willieH :HeartThrob:

Theo Book

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Re: Best argument AGAINST Universal "Salvation!"
« Reply #62 on: March 19, 2010, 12:32:33 PM »
Hi Theo.  I'd like to ask if you could see the possibility of everything that is not of God, will be condemned and destroyed - but with the end result being repentance, cleansing, and finally reconciliation and redemption?

At this point I have no problem with that other than all the scriptures that address eternal punishment. I have to wonder how it is that the original Christians (prior to second century) were able to add all those verses to scripture. I think the other Christians would be able to recognize a forgery and either reject them or warn against them.

Quote
Maybe don't get stuck on "you think everybody and everything's already OK, and I can't buy that".  See, I don't either.  

Fair enough.


Quote
I just believe God has a process, a plan for the ages in which all that's not of Him is judged, destroyed, corrected, but then all gathered together in Jesus - through faith in Him, when every knee eventually bows and every tongue confesses.  If one can get past the "but what about consequences, judgment, punishment", etc., and say "yes, those exist"...but what's the purpose, what's God's ultimate plan, and what's the end result?  If one can get to that point, then there are a couple hundred scriptures I could share with you that will then make a whole lot of sense and reconcile to the fact of a loving God, who will rescue His creation.  James.

Share away.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2010, 05:17:37 PM by Theo Book »

Theo Book

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Re: Best argument AGAINST Universal "Salvation!"
« Reply #63 on: March 19, 2010, 12:54:17 PM »
(Theo)
Quote
Just as Christ said, "When I am lifted up I will draw all men to me." There is action in the verb "draw." A response is required. much like a magnet draws mettle, the metal moves to the magnet. Christ was on that cross, to which we move when we repent.

And you are correct, every knee and head will react to the Lordship of Jesus. Voluntary in this life or forced to in the next. Now it is an option, in the next life it will be mandatory.

(CHB) The right word here is DRAG not draw.  


And you know this HOW?
elkuw {hel-koo'-o} Meaning:  1) to draw, drag off 2) metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel. [Universal Bible Society]


(CHB
Quote
I think when all is said and done that everyone will bow the knee voluntarily and no one can say that Jesus Christ is Lord but by the Holy Spirit (1Cor. 12:3) Middle of verse. "that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit".

If your remark demonstrates your understanding of that verse,... (And I am not saying it is wrong, just have a question)... does that mean that all the false teaching of denominationalsim comes from the Holy Spirit from the mouths of men who say "Jesus is Lord?"

(CHB)
Quote
Can metal resist the power of a magnet?

Yes. aluminum, gold , Silver, plenty of etceteras. That was not my point. Sinners are not gold, silver, and Aluminum,. they are the dross metals in my illustration. (I didn't make that very clear did I? Sorry). My point was that the drawing power of Jesus on the cross is similar to the drawing power of a magnet to dross metals. I should not have used the generic term "metal."

« Last Edit: March 19, 2010, 03:34:36 PM by Theo Book »

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Best argument AGAINST Universal "Salvation!"
« Reply #64 on: March 19, 2010, 01:40:40 PM »
(CHB) The right word here is DRAG not draw. 


And you know this HOW?
elkuw {hel-koo'-o} Meaning:  1) to draw, drag off 2) metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel. [Universal Bible Society][/quote]Can't find it right now but there is a article on that topic. Somewhere...... anyone?
Anyway all the (possible) meanings from UBS seems God is drawing. Can man resist God?

Quote
(CHB
Quote
I think when all is said and done that everyone will bow the knee voluntarily and no one can say that Jesus Christ is Lord but by the Holy Spirit (1Cor. 12:3) Middle of verse. "that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit".

If your remark demonstrates your understanding of that verse,... (And I am not saying it is wrong, just have a question)... does that mean that all the flase teaching of denominationalsim comes from the Holy Spirit from the mouths of men who say "Jesus is Lord?"
No. They come from the lack of HS because they are teachings of man.


Quote
Yes. aluminum, gold , Silver, plenty of etceteras. That was not my point. Sinners are not gold, silver, and Aluminum,. they are the dross metals in my illustration.
Saints are silver/gold.
Sinners are also silver. Poluted silver. Father will refine/wash out all dirt/sin from the silver/gold...

KJVMal 3:2-3
But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Best argument AGAINST Universal "Salvation!"
« Reply #65 on: March 19, 2010, 02:26:13 PM »
Quote from: CHB
The right word here is DRAG not draw.
 
And you know this HOW?
elkuw {hel-koo'-o} Meaning:  1) to draw, drag off 2) metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel. [Universal Bible Society]
http://evangelicalarminians.org/node/179
Not the article I mentioned earlier but perhaps of some use.
Quote
We differ, however, on the particulars of this word draw. This Greek word helkuo means "to draw," literally or figuratively (Strong's #1670). When speaking of physical things, the Greek word means "to drag" (John 18.10; Acts 16.19; 21.30; James 2.6).
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline jabcat

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Re: Best argument AGAINST Universal "Salvation!"
« Reply #66 on: March 19, 2010, 03:06:04 PM »
Hi Theo.  I'd like to ask if you could see the possibility of everything that is not of God, will be condemned and destroyed - but with the end result being repentance, cleansing, and finally reconciliation and redemption?

At this point I have no problem with that other than all the scriptures that address eternal punishment. I have to wonder how it is that the original Christians (prior to second century) were able to add allo those verses to scripture. I think the other Christians would be able to recognize a forgery and either reject them or warn against them.

Quote
Maybe don't get stuck on "you think everybody and everything's already OK, and I can't buy that".  See, I don't either.  

Fair enough.


Quote
I just believe God has a process, a plan for the ages in which all that's not of Him is judged, destroyed, corrected, but then all gathered together in Jesus - through faith in Him, when every knee eventually bows and every tongue confesses.  If one can get past the "but what about consequences, judgment, punishment", etc., and say "yes, those exist"...but what's the purpose, what's God's ultimate plan, and what's the end result?  If one can get to that point, then there are a couple hundred scriptures I could share with you that will then make a whole lot of sense and reconcile to the fact of a loving God, who will rescue His creation.  James.

Share away.

I don't believe "all of those verses" are spurrious, I believe much of it is translation and traditions of men that often make the Word of God of no effect.  With all the exposure you've had, I'd guess you're probably already familiar with things like aion vs. eternal, and that hell is a mistranslation - that there is punishment, corrective punishment, temporal punishment, etc., but that "eternal hell" is not in the scriptures.  I've already "shared away" with what I believe. Where are you at this point?  Are you really hearing anything, in rejection/disprove mode, just honestly not sure?   Lest anything's not just one more thing we think, in the end, God has to reveal to us.  James.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2010, 04:05:14 PM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline legoman

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Re: Best argument AGAINST Universal "Salvation!"
« Reply #67 on: March 19, 2010, 03:09:23 PM »

And you know this HOW?
elkuw {hel-koo'-o} Meaning:  1) to draw, drag off 2) metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel. [Universal Bible Society]

God draws men in the same way a soldier draws his sword and a fisherman draws in his net.

Does the sword decide if it wants to be drawn or not?  Does the net decide if it wants to be drawn or not?

Offline legoman

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Re: Best argument AGAINST Universal "Salvation!"
« Reply #68 on: March 19, 2010, 03:21:02 PM »

And you are correct, every knee and head will react to the Lordship of Jesus. Voluntary in this life or forced to in the next. Now it is an option, in the next life it will be mandatory.

Scripture doesn't say they are forced to bow in the next life.  It just says they will.  They do it willingly.

But think about what you are saying.  If you say God won't force anyone to come to him in this life, why would He force anyone to bow in the next life?  God doesn't need false praise, and that is all a forced confession/bowing would be. 

Scripture in fact says all will willingly bow to God, swearing allegiance, confessing openly, and they will do it joyfully and with praise:

Isaiah 45:23 [NASB] I have sworn by Myself,
         The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness
         And will not turn back,
         That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.

Rev 5:13 And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever."

Phil 2:10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
      in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
      to the glory of God the Father.

Meaning for confess G1843:
1) to confess
2) to profess
a) acknowledge openly and joyfully
b) to one's honour: to celebrate, give praise to
c) to profess that one will do something, to promise, agree, engage

This is no forced confession.  God does not want a false confession. 

Theo Book

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Re: Best argument AGAINST Universal "Salvation!"
« Reply #69 on: March 19, 2010, 03:42:36 PM »


(WhiteWing)
Quote
Can man resist God?

Always. Unless you think God is not the Holy Spirit????

Acts 7:51 "Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye."

Rom 13:2 "Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God.."

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Best argument AGAINST Universal "Salvation!"
« Reply #70 on: March 19, 2010, 03:44:22 PM »
Theo,

A general thought. There are layers in Bible. Some are very hard to understand. But the top layer imo just says things in a simple way. None of the layers contradict. Many/most of Jesus' audience were simple people. Because Jesus isn't some second hand carsalesman He speaks clear words. Words that can be understood without a 10 year study. I also think Jesus didn't teach everything in the NT at the same place.
We jump around in the Bible between various books to prove things. But is that needed? Is that how Jesus did spread the word? People that heard a sermon of Jesus often heard Him for the first and last time. They couldn't cross check between all of Jesus's speeches. To me it seems that would like teaching half truths.
Unless Jesus just means what He said. No hidden twist and references. Just plain, honest truth.

Revelation 5:13: "And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying, 'To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!"'

I can read it in no other way as very honest worship. Nothing near this verse indicates (part of) the mentioned people are lying to save their skin. So this, imo, proves the drawing was very effective.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Theo Book

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Re: Best argument AGAINST Universal "Salvation!"
« Reply #71 on: March 19, 2010, 05:07:01 PM »
(SteveW)
Quote
Thanks for the background Theo and I have to say, I do really appreciate the tone of your posts.  They aren't inflammatory at all and really foster honest sharing.

I think I am understanding your argument better now and here is my off the cuff response.

1.  I don't believe you can treat God's interaction with Adam like you do the other old testament covenants.  God said to Adam "you will surely die".  Yet obviously the ramifications for Adam of his sin applied to not only him but to all of his offspring for as long as there were men.  Regardless of the terms actually explained to Adam, this was the consequence.  It was a universal (for all men) consequence and no man is exempt from it.

I use the illustration of separation of covenants to offset the damage done by those who teach "inheritance of original sin, from Adam." There is no such doctrine in scripture.

As for it being a covenant with Adam, the meaning of the word translated covenant includes "arrangement, instruction," etc.

I do believe God had an understanding that he had given "Instruction" to Adam. And I do believe God explained to Adam the difference between obedience and disobedience. AND I do believe God had made clear to Adam, consequences for disobedience. That has all the marks of a covenant. I do not make it a test of fellowship, I simply express why God did nothave to warn Adam of any eternal consequences for what went on in the garden. It was not part of Adam's understanding because it never came up in their conversations. And the reason it did not come up in their conversations is the simple fact, if Adam obeyed, he alread "lived forever" under the arrangement already agreed to. It did not require an understanding of eternal consequences and eternal life. He knew no other kind.

I think each covenant was a growth of the [previous one because each covenant had deeper requirements that the previous one. For example, God made a covenant with Abraham, which covered two testaments, but his covenant with Abraham's children through Isaac, and Jacob, was limited to Jacob's children, through the law of Moses.

(Steve)
Quote
2.  Christ is contrasted specifically to Adam and His work is painted as specifically contradicting the consequences of Adam's action.  "The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification" (Rom 5). Paul doesn't make a distinction here.  He doesn't say the judment of death followed Adam's sin and the judgment of eternal damnation followed the sin of not believing on Christ.  I think it is clear he has one judgment in mind.  What that judgment is (death or eternal torment) is what we are debating.

Hmmm???
o.k. where to start???
"Contradicted" I think is not applicable here, because Christ did not "speak against" so much as he corrected the results in order for all men to avoid the consequences of living in a sincursed world.

The judgment did not follow "one sin," but rather the sin of one, Adam, which included the sin of Eve [Gen 5:2] who first did the deed. She was deceived [I Tim 2:14] and followed information that contradicted earlier instruction from God. Adam chose to fall with her rather than to live a life of solitary living, which he had alread tasted once. This directly addressses the doctrine of "original sin" because Eve committed the first sion, and the OSDoctrine claims sin is inherited through the father because Adam sinned first. It is of course theological speculation anyway, but proved untrue here.


(SteveW)
Quote
3.  When portraying the final judgment John makes no distinction between the covenants.  In Rev 20 the sea and death and hades give up their dead and they are all judged, without regard to what covenant they were under.

Do not put too much into the silence of scripture. John told that which he was inspired to write, by the Holy Spirit. He was not covering any covenant but the covenant of Grace.

And when Paul made reference to events under the law, it was always as a reference to prove a point he was establishing as from God. It never had to do wioth old testament characters sharing in the new covenant consequences.



(SteveW)
Quote
 Then death and hades are thrown into the lake of fire and if anyone's name is not in the book of life they are thrown into the lake of fire.  Whatever this means there is absolutely nothing to indicate that it is all the dead.

Nothing to indicate it was all, nor not all. I think I would allow its meaning to be determined by the covenant in which it was presented, and by the judgment.

(SteveW)
Quote
4.  The Bible doesn't indicate separate judgments for separate covenants.  It indicates an ultimate judgment for all.

O.K. Reference please, for my information.

(SteveW)
Quote
5.  Ergo, the idea of God not warning anyone until the time of Christ of the ultimate consequences of Adams sin (if they were eternal torment and not death) for all man kind, not just those who died since the time of Christ, is a hard pill to swallow.

True. But it is not on my board, but it is on this one. THAT is what first drew me to question the issue.
It is an article found at http://www.tentmaker.org/books/OriginandHistory.html

titled:THE ORIGIN AND HISTORY OF THE Doctrine of Endless Punishment BY THOMAS B.
THAYER

His use of references to God NOT warning old testament covenanteers, is still used on this board as an introductory reason to disbelieve "eternal torment." I consider "If the introductory source is in error, the result may well be also." The introductory source is very well in error, so I proceed with a view that the resultant doctrine may well be also.

As I have stated on several occasions, I do not claim to know very much, and test all things whether they are of God. since most of my study over the past fifty years has been on Trinity oriented issues, I know very little about USAL other than my debates with Gary and Laird years ago.

Theo Book

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Re: Best argument AGAINST Universal "Salvation!"
« Reply #72 on: March 19, 2010, 05:09:33 PM »
Theo,

A general thought. There are layers in Bible. Some are very hard to understand. But the top layer imo just says things in a simple way. None of the layers contradict. Many/most of Jesus' audience were simple people. Because Jesus isn't some second hand carsalesman He speaks clear words. Words that can be understood without a 10 year study. I also think Jesus didn't teach everything in the NT at the same place.
We jump around in the Bible between various books to prove things. But is that needed? Is that how Jesus did spread the word? People that heard a sermon of Jesus often heard Him for the first and last time. They couldn't cross check between all of Jesus's speeches. To me it seems that would like teaching half truths.
Unless Jesus just means what He said. No hidden twist and references. Just plain, honest truth.

Revelation 5:13: "And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying, 'To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!"'

I can read it in no other way as very honest worship. Nothing near this verse indicates (part of) the mentioned people are lying to save their skin. So this, imo, proves the drawing was very effective.

Your argument sounds reasonable on the surface. I till think on it and get back to you at some point, on this one.

Theo Book

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Re: Best argument AGAINST Universal "Salvation!"
« Reply #73 on: March 19, 2010, 05:20:50 PM »

And you know this HOW?
elkuw {hel-koo'-o} Meaning:  1) to draw, drag off 2) metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel. [Universal Bible Society]

God draws men in the same way a soldier draws his sword and a fisherman draws in his net.

Does the sword decide if it wants to be drawn or not?  Does the net decide if it wants to be drawn or not?


I don't think so. I think it is more like"I was drawn to her innocence" or "I am drawn to nature's beauty." It is more the concept of discovering what it is that appeals to the spirit of YOU.

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: Best argument AGAINST Universal "Salvation!"
« Reply #74 on: March 19, 2010, 06:21:15 PM »


(WhiteWing)
Quote
Can man resist God?

Always. Unless you think God is not the Holy Spirit????

Acts 7:51 "Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye."

Rom 13:2 "Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God.."



Having the ability to resist and devise a way in your heart is not inherant to the ability to overcome Gods intention.

Clay resists being formed, that is why the potter has to put pressure in the right places and the right ways.   

While it may be said that we can always resist,  scripture tells us the nature of things.

 Ro 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

Pr 16:9 . A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.