Apologetics - Universal Reconciliation > Arguments Against Universal Salvation

Best Aguments for Universal Salvation Project

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97531:
Gary asked me to try and get a project going to collect the best arguments for Universal Salvation and rebuttals to Eternal Torment Teachings.

This is going to be tricky as there are varying opinions around these topics and many are interrelated.

Let us see if we can collect all the info into one repository.

As an apologist in favor of UR, take a typical argument and post the against UR with your or a rebuttal to that view. 

Try not do long copy + pastes, highlight key points and a link to articles if necessary.

Let's see how this pans out.

Blessings

97531:
Claim we do not know God or who He is.

Rom 5:5  And hope does not make us ashamed, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts through the Holy Spirit given to us.

1Co 12:3  Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says Jesus is a curse, and that no one can say that Jesus is Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

Some seeds for thought

We pervert the scriptures - cherry pick/twist to suit our beliefs
We lead others astray from the truth
God chooses only some
God loves only some
Eternal torment is just
All does not always mean all
What UR teaches nullifies the Cross
We are deceived by satan
We have never been saved
What UR teaches give license to sin

There are many more and I could refute these all but others should participate here.  If you think of others list them.

Blessings

AJ:
EVERYBODY -  WILL BECOME SAVED - WHEN THEY CONFESS THAT 'JESUS IS LORD'

.First...
(1)…That according to the Bible, - it states that when SOMEONE CONFESSES that "Jesus is Lord," –  that they will be SAVED?

"That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is
with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved."(Rom. 1:9-10)


 
Peter saying "and it shall be that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Act 2:21).
The jailor said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" They said, " Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved." - (Act 16:27-31).


And let's remember...
  Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says Jesus is a curse, and that no one can say that Jesus is Lord, but by the Holy Spirit. (I Cor. 12:3)


.Furthermore...
(2)…That the Bible also states - that – 'EVERYONE' will confess that  "Jesus is Lord"?

"As surely as I live,' says the Lord, 'every knee will bow before me; every tongue will confess to God" - (Rom. 14:11)
"Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven
and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." - (Phil. 2:11)


.
(3)…Again…..HOW MANY PEOPLE will call on the name of the Lord?

"Therefore wait for me," declares the Lord , "for the day I will stand up to testify. I have decided to assemble the nations, to gather the kingdoms and to pour out
my wrath on them- all my fierce anger.
The whole world will be consumed by the fire of my jealous anger. "Then will I purify the lips of the peoples, that all
of them may call on the name of the Lord and serve him shoulder to shoulder." - (Zeph 3:8-9)

The whole earth will acknowledge the LORD and return to him.
People from every nation will bow down before him. 
For the LORD is king! He rules all the nations. (Psalm 22:27-28)


.

PaulTheJesusFreak:
Well, no long copy-pastes, haha. I have some very long posts and threads concerning this subject on another forum. But lemme just post a lot of scriptures that I have.

Jesus means "Jehovah-Saviour." Saviour of what? Saviour of whom? Here's a Scriptural answer:

"And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son [Jesus—Jehovah - SAVIOUR] TO BE THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD" (1 John 4:14)

"…the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I DO, bear witness of Me…." (John 5:36).

Did Jesus take the works ("to be the SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD") seriously?

"I MUST WORK THE WORKS [SAVE THE WORLD] OF HIM THAT SENT ME…." (John 9:4)  :!:  :!:  :!:

What power might Jesus lack that could disable or frustrate this  commission of His Father?

"ALL POWER IS GIVEN UNTO ME in heaven and in earth" (Matt 28:18 )

Has Jesus already proven that He has enough power to overcome all the "free wills" of the world?

"Be of good cheer; I have OVERCOME THE WORLD" (John 16:33)

God exercises sovereignty over man's supposed "free" will!
Maybe God doesn't want the whole world to be saved?

"Who WILL have all men to be saved" (1 Tim. 2:4)

"For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, Who is the Saviour of ALL MEN, especially [but not exclusively] of those who believe" (1 Tim. 4:10)

"The Lord…is NOT WILLING that ANY should perish [eternally]…" (2 Peter. 3:9).

"And I, if I be lifted up [on the cross] from the earth, will draw ALL MEN UNTO ME" (John 12:32)

But doesn't the whole world need first to have their sins atoned for?

"And He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for our's only, but also for THE SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD"
\(1 John 2:2)

"The next day John sees Jesus coming unto him, and says, Behold the Lamb of God, which TAKES AWAY THE SIN OF THE WORLD" (John 1:29)

"For by grace are ye saved through FAITH; and that [that 'FAITH'] is NOT OF YOURSELVES [well where does it come from then, if not from US?]; it is the GIFT OF GOD" (Eph 2:8 )

"That at the name of Jesus [Jehovah-Saviour—THEIR Saviour] EVERY knee should bow, in heaven, and in earth, and under the earth; and that EVERY tongue should confess ('That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God has raised Him from the dead, THOU SHALT BE SAVED, [Rom. 10:9]) that Jesus Christ [The Christ that God 'raised from the dead.' Christ was already 'RISEN' when this was written in Phil. 2:11] is Lord ('Lord' means 'master'—acknowledging Christ as Master of their lives), to the glory of God the Father" (Phil. 2:10-11)

 The Holy Spirit inspires this sincere voluntary act (1 Cor. 12:3) :!:

"God is operating ALL in all" (1 Cor 12:6)

"Yet ALL is of God" (2 Cor 5:18)

"For OF Him, and THROUGH Him, and TO Him, ARE ALL THINGS: to Whom be glory for ever. Amen" (Rom. 11:34)

"…being predestinated according to the purpose of Him Who works ALL THINGS after the counsel of His OWN WILL" (Eph 1:11)

"For God sent NOT his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that THE WORLD through Him [Jehovah-SAVIOUR] might be SAVED:!:" (John 3:17)

"…the Lamb of God [Jehovah-SAVIOUR], which takes away the sin of THE WORLD" (John 1:29)

"To wit that God was in Christ [Jehovah-SAVIOUR], reconciling THE WORLD unto Himself, NOT imputing their trespasses unto them…" (2 Cor 5:19)

"This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation (will you accept it?) that Christ Jesus [Jehovah-SAVIOUR] came into THE WORLD to SAVE SINNERS…" (1 Tim. 1:15)

"And if any man hear My words, and believe not, I judge Him not, for I [Jehovah-SAVIOUR] came not to judge the world, but to SAVE THE WORLD" (John 12:47)

"For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angles, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature,[size=24] shall be able to separate us from THE LOVE OF GOD, WHICH IS IN CHRIST JESUS OUR LORD[/size]" (Rom. 8:38-39)

"The Lord…is NOT WILLING that ANY should perish [eternally]…" (II Peter. 3:9).


"And I, if I be lifted up [on the cross] from the earth, will draw ALL MEN UNTO ME" (John 12:32).

But doesn't the whole world need first to have their sins atoned for?

"And He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for our's only, but also for THE SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD" (I John 2:2).


"The next day John sees Jesus coming unto him, and says, Behold the Lamb of God, which TAKES AWAY THE SIN OF THE WORLD" (John 1:29).

Hasn't the Church proven by their interpretation of the "lake of fire" that it is "impossible" to save all mankind?

"Who then CAN be saved? But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE" (Matt. 19:25-26).


1 Cor 12:3
3Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

 So, by Scripture, we are shown that the Holy Ghost  inspires all of the millions of sinners and Believers alike to bow down and confess that Jesus Christ is LORD and GOD OF ALL. Will even the demons and satan himself do this?

Ephesians 1:11
 11In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

 Isn't it up to each individual to "CHOOSE CHIRST" in order to be saved, is what you ask? That's not what my Bible says!

"You have NOT CHOSEN ME, but I have CHOSEN YOU…" (John 15:16).

"That at the name of Jesus [Jehovah-Saviour—THEIR Saviour] EVERY knee should bow, in heaven, and in earth, and under the earth; and that EVERY tongue should confess ['That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God has raised Him from the dead, THOU SHALT BE SAVED, Rom. 10:9)] that Jesus Christ [The Christ that God 'raised from the dead.' Christ was already 'RISEN' when this was written in Phil. 2:11] is Lord ['Lord' means 'master'—acknowledging Christ as Master of their lives], to the glory of God the Father" (Phil 2:10-11).

1 Tim 1:15
 15This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

1 Tim 2:4
4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

"For this is GOOD and ACCEPTABLE in the sight of God our Saviour…"

Isa 46:10-11
 10Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

 11Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

BenJasher:
Hey PaultheJesusfreak; When did Clement make that statement in your signature file? I like that quote.

More to the point of this thread:

I have a gentleman in my congregation that believes in partial atonement. (I say partial atonement because I can't spell annihilation)  :happy3: He had never heard of UR until he started coming to my church. But he is a thinker. He's not stupid. He is actually excited about the message of the Victorious Gospel, but he isn't ready to accept it yet. :mshrug:

He has two main objections. One is kinda hard to articulate, but it goes something like this:
--- Quote from: The Old Gentleman ---What if in the end; and after all God has done to bring them over to His side, they still want nothing to do with Him and spit curses at His name?
--- End quote ---

I normally answer him with a question to start with: Are you saying that man's stubbornness is stronger than God's love for him? What matters more: my rejection of Him or His desire for me?

His promulgation of these ideas insinuates 2 things: 1) That God created something He couldn't control. 2)Man has a free will. Both of these concepts are not only wrong, but imho, border on blasphemy.

John 14:6 and John 12:32 are two scriptures I use a lot. That word "draw" in John 12:32 is a very powerful word. It connotates a man drawing a bucket of water from the bottom of a well.

If a man was thirsty, he wouldn't try to woo a drink of water out of the well with sweet, enticing words, only to give up and walk away thirsty if the bucket didn't come up out of the well on its own free will...? Would he? Would you?

NO. He/you/I would grab the rope and draw that bucket to himself and drink his thirst away. And Jesus said this in connexion to the manner in which He was going to die.

Does Jesus make hollow statements that have no meaning? If Jesus made a promise, is that promise going to come to pass? Alright; Was Jesus lifted up? Is He going to draw all men unto Himself?

John 14:6 goes hand in hand with all of this when Jesus says: No man can come to the Father except by Me. Where is there any indication that someone could resist Him? Where is the free-will?

In the final analysis of his argument; I just don't think that once a man experiences His presence, that anyone would want to resist Him.

The other argument he has is that UR fulfills a philosophical and psychological need in people, but has no basis in scripture. And everytime he has made that statement, I have felt to not answer him. I just let it go like I didn't hear him.

After all the scripture I have shared with him, messages I have given, and articles by different authors I have given him, he has no excuse for not seeing UR, except that the Lord hasn't revealed it to him yet. I can't tell you that He ever will. I have sought the Lord about that, but I have not received any response from Him.

And that is where it has to happen in my book. If it isn't revealed to you by the Holy Spirit, then your acceptance of the Victorious Gospel is merely intellectual. Somebody with a better intellect can show you that you are wrong. When the Holy Spirit reveals it to you, it gets way down into the deeper recesses of your spirit and becomes part of the fiber and fabric of your being, and anybody trying to tell you that you are wrong is wasting their time.

I would much rather, any day of the week, have my people come into UR because the Holy Spirit revealed it to them, and not because they could accept my teaching.

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