Best Aguments for Universal Salvation Project

[97531]

Gary asked me to try and get a project going to collect the best arguments for Universal Salvation and rebuttals to Eternal Torment Teachings.

This is going to be tricky as there are varying opinions around these topics and many are interrelated.

Let us see if we can collect all the info into one repository.

As an apologist in favor of UR, take a typical argument and post the against UR with your or a rebuttal to that view. 

Try not do long copy + pastes, highlight key points and a link to articles if necessary.

Let's see how this pans out.

Blessings

[97531]

Claim we do not know God or who He is.

Rom 5:5  And hope does not make us ashamed, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts through the Holy Spirit given to us.

1Co 12:3  Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says Jesus is a curse, and that no one can say that Jesus is Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

Some seeds for thought

We pervert the scriptures - cherry pick/twist to suit our beliefs
We lead others astray from the truth
God chooses only some
God loves only some
Eternal torment is just
All does not always mean all
What UR teaches nullifies the Cross
We are deceived by satan
We have never been saved
What UR teaches give license to sin

There are many more and I could refute these all but others should participate here.  If you think of others list them.

Blessings

[AJ]

EVERYBODY -  WILL BECOME SAVED - WHEN THEY CONFESS THAT 'JESUS IS LORD'

.First...
(1)…That according to the Bible, - it states that when SOMEONE CONFESSES that "Jesus is Lord," –  that they will be SAVED?

"That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is
with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved."(Rom. 1:9-10)


 
Peter saying "and it shall be that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Act 2:21).
The jailor said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" They said, " Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved." - (Act 16:27-31).


And let's remember...
  Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says Jesus is a curse, and that no one can say that Jesus is Lord, but by the Holy Spirit. (I Cor. 12:3)


.Furthermore...
(2)…That the Bible also states - that – 'EVERYONE' will confess that  "Jesus is Lord"?

"As surely as I live,' says the Lord, 'every knee will bow before me; every tongue will confess to God" - (Rom. 14:11)
"Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven
and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." - (Phil. 2:11)


.
(3)…Again…..HOW MANY PEOPLE will call on the name of the Lord?

"Therefore wait for me," declares the Lord , "for the day I will stand up to testify. I have decided to assemble the nations, to gather the kingdoms and to pour out
my wrath on them- all my fierce anger.
The whole world will be consumed by the fire of my jealous anger. "Then will I purify the lips of the peoples, that all
of them may call on the name of the Lord and serve him shoulder to shoulder." - (Zeph 3:8-9)

The whole earth will acknowledge the LORD and return to him.
People from every nation will bow down before him. 
For the LORD is king! He rules all the nations. (Psalm 22:27-28)


.

[PaulTheJesusFreak]

Well, no long copy-pastes, haha. I have some very long posts and threads concerning this subject on another forum. But lemme just post a lot of scriptures that I have.

Jesus means "Jehovah-Saviour." Saviour of what? Saviour of whom? Here's a Scriptural answer:

"And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son [Jesus—Jehovah - SAVIOUR] TO BE THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD" (1 John 4:14)

"…the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I DO, bear witness of Me…." (John 5:36).

Did Jesus take the works ("to be the SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD") seriously?

"I MUST WORK THE WORKS [SAVE THE WORLD] OF HIM THAT SENT ME…." (John 9:4)  :!:  :!:  :!:

What power might Jesus lack that could disable or frustrate this  commission of His Father?

"ALL POWER IS GIVEN UNTO ME in heaven and in earth" (Matt 28:18 )

Has Jesus already proven that He has enough power to overcome all the "free wills" of the world?

"Be of good cheer; I have OVERCOME THE WORLD" (John 16:33)

God exercises sovereignty over man's supposed "free" will!
Maybe God doesn't want the whole world to be saved?

"Who WILL have all men to be saved" (1 Tim. 2:4)

"For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, Who is the Saviour of ALL MEN, especially [but not exclusively] of those who believe" (1 Tim. 4:10)

"The Lord…is NOT WILLING that ANY should perish [eternally]…" (2 Peter. 3:9).

"And I, if I be lifted up [on the cross] from the earth, will draw ALL MEN UNTO ME" (John 12:32)

But doesn't the whole world need first to have their sins atoned for?

"And He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for our's only, but also for THE SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD"
\(1 John 2:2)

"The next day John sees Jesus coming unto him, and says, Behold the Lamb of God, which TAKES AWAY THE SIN OF THE WORLD" (John 1:29)

"For by grace are ye saved through FAITH; and that [that 'FAITH'] is NOT OF YOURSELVES [well where does it come from then, if not from US?]; it is the GIFT OF GOD" (Eph 2:8 )

"That at the name of Jesus [Jehovah-Saviour—THEIR Saviour] EVERY knee should bow, in heaven, and in earth, and under the earth; and that EVERY tongue should confess ('That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God has raised Him from the dead, THOU SHALT BE SAVED, [Rom. 10:9]) that Jesus Christ [The Christ that God 'raised from the dead.' Christ was already 'RISEN' when this was written in Phil. 2:11] is Lord ('Lord' means 'master'—acknowledging Christ as Master of their lives), to the glory of God the Father" (Phil. 2:10-11)

 The Holy Spirit inspires this sincere voluntary act (1 Cor. 12:3) :!:

"God is operating ALL in all" (1 Cor 12:6)

"Yet ALL is of God" (2 Cor 5:18)

"For OF Him, and THROUGH Him, and TO Him, ARE ALL THINGS: to Whom be glory for ever. Amen" (Rom. 11:34)

"…being predestinated according to the purpose of Him Who works ALL THINGS after the counsel of His OWN WILL" (Eph 1:11)

"For God sent NOT his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that THE WORLD through Him [Jehovah-SAVIOUR] might be SAVED:!:" (John 3:17)

"…the Lamb of God [Jehovah-SAVIOUR], which takes away the sin of THE WORLD" (John 1:29)

"To wit that God was in Christ [Jehovah-SAVIOUR], reconciling THE WORLD unto Himself, NOT imputing their trespasses unto them…" (2 Cor 5:19)

"This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation (will you accept it?) that Christ Jesus [Jehovah-SAVIOUR] came into THE WORLD to SAVE SINNERS…" (1 Tim. 1:15)

"And if any man hear My words, and believe not, I judge Him not, for I [Jehovah-SAVIOUR] came not to judge the world, but to SAVE THE WORLD" (John 12:47)

"For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angles, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature,[size=24] shall be able to separate us from THE LOVE OF GOD, WHICH IS IN CHRIST JESUS OUR LORD[/size]" (Rom. 8:38-39)

"The Lord…is NOT WILLING that ANY should perish [eternally]…" (II Peter. 3:9).


"And I, if I be lifted up [on the cross] from the earth, will draw ALL MEN UNTO ME" (John 12:32).

But doesn't the whole world need first to have their sins atoned for?

"And He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for our's only, but also for THE SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD" (I John 2:2).


"The next day John sees Jesus coming unto him, and says, Behold the Lamb of God, which TAKES AWAY THE SIN OF THE WORLD" (John 1:29).

Hasn't the Church proven by their interpretation of the "lake of fire" that it is "impossible" to save all mankind?

"Who then CAN be saved? But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE" (Matt. 19:25-26).


1 Cor 12:3
3Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

 So, by Scripture, we are shown that the Holy Ghost  inspires all of the millions of sinners and Believers alike to bow down and confess that Jesus Christ is LORD and GOD OF ALL. Will even the demons and satan himself do this?

Ephesians 1:11
 11In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

 Isn't it up to each individual to "CHOOSE CHIRST" in order to be saved, is what you ask? That's not what my Bible says!

"You have NOT CHOSEN ME, but I have CHOSEN YOU…" (John 15:16).

"That at the name of Jesus [Jehovah-Saviour—THEIR Saviour] EVERY knee should bow, in heaven, and in earth, and under the earth; and that EVERY tongue should confess ['That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God has raised Him from the dead, THOU SHALT BE SAVED, Rom. 10:9)] that Jesus Christ [The Christ that God 'raised from the dead.' Christ was already 'RISEN' when this was written in Phil. 2:11] is Lord ['Lord' means 'master'—acknowledging Christ as Master of their lives], to the glory of God the Father" (Phil 2:10-11).

1 Tim 1:15
 15This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

1 Tim 2:4
4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

"For this is GOOD and ACCEPTABLE in the sight of God our Saviour…"

Isa 46:10-11
 10Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

 11Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

[BenJasher]

Hey PaultheJesusfreak; When did Clement make that statement in your signature file? I like that quote.

More to the point of this thread:

I have a gentleman in my congregation that believes in partial atonement. (I say partial atonement because I can't spell annihilation)  He had never heard of UR until he started coming to my church. But he is a thinker. He's not stupid. He is actually excited about the message of the Victorious Gospel, but he isn't ready to accept it yet.

He has two main objections. One is kinda hard to articulate, but it goes something like this:

What if in the end; and after all God has done to bring them over to His side, they still want nothing to do with Him and spit curses at His name?

I normally answer him with a question to start with: Are you saying that man's stubbornness is stronger than God's love for him? What matters more: my rejection of Him or His desire for me?

His promulgation of these ideas insinuates 2 things: 1) That God created something He couldn't control. 2)Man has a free will. Both of these concepts are not only wrong, but imho, border on blasphemy.

John 14:6 and John 12:32 are two scriptures I use a lot. That word "draw" in John 12:32 is a very powerful word. It connotates a man drawing a bucket of water from the bottom of a well.

If a man was thirsty, he wouldn't try to woo a drink of water out of the well with sweet, enticing words, only to give up and walk away thirsty if the bucket didn't come up out of the well on its own free will...? Would he? Would you?

NO. He/you/I would grab the rope and draw that bucket to himself and drink his thirst away. And Jesus said this in connexion to the manner in which He was going to die.

Does Jesus make hollow statements that have no meaning? If Jesus made a promise, is that promise going to come to pass? Alright; Was Jesus lifted up? Is He going to draw all men unto Himself?

John 14:6 goes hand in hand with all of this when Jesus says: No man can come to the Father except by Me. Where is there any indication that someone could resist Him? Where is the free-will?

In the final analysis of his argument; I just don't think that once a man experiences His presence, that anyone would want to resist Him.

The other argument he has is that UR fulfills a philosophical and psychological need in people, but has no basis in scripture. And everytime he has made that statement, I have felt to not answer him. I just let it go like I didn't hear him.

After all the scripture I have shared with him, messages I have given, and articles by different authors I have given him, he has no excuse for not seeing UR, except that the Lord hasn't revealed it to him yet. I can't tell you that He ever will. I have sought the Lord about that, but I have not received any response from Him.

And that is where it has to happen in my book. If it isn't revealed to you by the Holy Spirit, then your acceptance of the Victorious Gospel is merely intellectual. Somebody with a better intellect can show you that you are wrong. When the Holy Spirit reveals it to you, it gets way down into the deeper recesses of your spirit and becomes part of the fiber and fabric of your being, and anybody trying to tell you that you are wrong is wasting their time.

I would much rather, any day of the week, have my people come into UR because the Holy Spirit revealed it to them, and not because they could accept my teaching.

[hopeful]

I just don't think that once a man experiences His presence, that anyone would want to resist Him.

Exactly!

And that is where it has to happen in my book. If it isn't revealed to you by the Holy Spirit, then your acceptance of the Victorious Gospel is merely intellectual. Somebody with a better intellect can show you that you are wrong. When the Holy Spirit reveals it to you, it gets way down into the deeper recesses of your spirit and becomes part of the fiber and fabric of your being, and anybody trying to tell you that you are wrong is wasting their time.

This was my experience.  He revealed, then confirmed with scripture.  I've seen people (somewhat) convincingly twist scripture but it's hard for someone to twist someone else's personal revelation.

[PaulTheJesusFreak]

Hey PaultheJesusfreak; When did Clement make that statement in your signature file? I like that quote.

 Honestly, I found it somewhere on a website, and I don't remember where. 

[Dante]

Point 1:


God will do HIS WILL. NOT mans will! He does ALL of what HE PLEASES and DESIRES!

Isaiah 46:10  God will do all His pleasure
Ephesians 1:11  God works all after the counsel of His will

I ask you, does Jesus always do what his Father pleases and desires???

John 8:29  He always does what pleases His Father
John 17:2  Jesus will give eternal life to all whom His Father gives to Him

And, WHAT IS IT that the Father Pleases and desires????

1Tim 2:4-God desires all to come to the knowledge of truth

1Tim 2:4-God will have all to be saved

So let us get this straight!

If God always does what he desires and pleases. And Jesus always carries out what his father desires and pleases. And the Father pleases and desires that ALL be saved.

Then I would surmise that, if God wants THE ALL to be saved (Which it clearly shows in the passages above), then that is EXACTLY what is going to happen!!!!

ALL WILL BE SAVED!

God does what he desires and pleases and that is to save the whole world through his Son Jesus Christ. And God's WILL is ALWAYS DONE.

It is as easy as 1,2,3.


Point 2:


"This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man CHRIST JESUS; WHO GAVE HIMSELF A RANSOM FOR ALL, to be testified in due time" (1 Tim. 2:3-6)

God is the Savior of ALL,………not some,….not a few, but all.

"As in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. BUT EVERY MAN IN HIS OWN ORDER" (1 Cor. 15:22-24).

You cannot deny that all men are dead in Adam's sin. Yet you would deny that THE SAME ALL will be made alive in Christ.
This THEME is repeated over and over, in the word of God.

"So then as through one trespass the judgment came unto all men to condemnation; even so through one act of righteousness the free gift came unto all men to justification of life. For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One shall the many be made righteous" (Rom. 5:18-19).

The many are made sinners,…….those same "Many" are made righteous!

How many of the "Many" are sinners????
Answer: ALL

How many of the "Many" will be made righteous???
Answer: ALL


Hope this helps.

Have a nice day!

 

[Armistead]

EVERYBODY -  WILL BECOME SAVED - WHEN THEY CONFESS THAT 'JESUS IS LORD'

.First...
(1)…That according to the Bible, - it states that when SOMEONE CONFESSES that "Jesus is Lord," –  that they will be SAVED?

"That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is
with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved."(Rom. 1:9-10)


 
Peter saying "and it shall be that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Act 2:21).
The jailor said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" They said, " Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved." - (Act 16:27-31).


And let's remember...
  Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says Jesus is a curse, and that no one can say that Jesus is Lord, but by the Holy Spirit. (I Cor. 12:3)


.Furthermore...
(2)…That the Bible also states - that – 'EVERYONE' will confess that  "Jesus is Lord"?

"As surely as I live,' says the Lord, 'every knee will bow before me; every tongue will confess to God" - (Rom. 14:11)
"Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven
and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." - (Phil. 2:11)


.
(3)…Again…..HOW MANY PEOPLE will call on the name of the Lord?

"Therefore wait for me," declares the Lord , "for the day I will stand up to testify. I have decided to assemble the nations, to gather the kingdoms and to pour out
my wrath on them- all my fierce anger.
The whole world will be consumed by the fire of my jealous anger. "Then will I purify the lips of the peoples, that all
of them may call on the name of the Lord and serve him shoulder to shoulder." - (Zeph 3:8-9)

The whole earth will acknowledge the LORD and return to him.
People from every nation will bow down before him. 
For the LORD is king! He rules all the nations. (Psalm 22:27-28)


.

and your defense when they say argue the verse that states that many called him Lord, did miracles in his name, yet he told them, depart from me, I never knew you......They called him Lord, yet he never knew them....

That's the commom answer I get back when I debate as you offered. How do you respond against this arguement.

[WhiteWings]

Don't get me wrong I believe the message and I agree with 95% of the above posts but....
Before those verses are of the smallest use word defenitions are needed.
When using all verses the simple reply will be: "all elect", "a selection of all groups", "all who are commited to Christ" etc

If a person believes in 'aion' and 'all' s/he is a UR follower. All Christians believe (almost) exactly the same when there is an agreement on those words.

[WhiteWings]

EVERYBODY -  WILL BECOME SAVED - WHEN THEY CONFESS THAT 'JESUS IS LORD'

.First...
(1)…That according to the Bible, - it states that when SOMEONE CONFESSES that "Jesus is Lord," –  that they will be SAVED?

Their answer: Most will not confess and when in hell confessions have no effect.
 

Peter saying "and it shall be that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Act 2:21).
The jailor said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" They said, " Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved." - (Act 16:27-31).

Their answer: Most will not confess and when in hell confessions have no effect.

And let's remember...
  Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says Jesus is a curse, and that no one can say that Jesus is Lord, but by the Holy Spirit. (I Cor. 12:3)

Their answer: Exactly! Many will not accept/recieve the HS

.Furthermore...
(2)…That the Bible also states - that – 'EVERYONE' will confess that  "Jesus is Lord"?

Their answer: That is true everyone will confess in hell. But that confession won't save them.

.

(3)…Again…..HOW MANY PEOPLE will call on the name of the Lord?

"Therefore wait for me," declares the Lord , "for the day I will stand up to testify. I have decided to assemble the nations, to gather the kingdoms and to pour out
my wrath on them- all my fierce anger.
The whole world will be consumed by the fire of my jealous anger. "Then will I purify the lips of the peoples, that all
of them may call on the name of the Lord and serve him shoulder to shoulder." - (Zeph 3:8-9)

Their answer: Surely all will be amazed/afraid after seeing the power of the Lord. But that's no real believe. Plus God can risk letting people into Heaven that will cause trouble.

[Shadowland]

To AJ

I think that being saved is a "process".
Does it say "will be saved.... if"
Look at all the scriptures that have the word "If".....you could download "e-sword" to your desktop.

If there were a portal would you jump through?

Are you taking stepping stones across the river of life?

There are pastors who preach against what they can't comprehend...and rather than follow God they are making the Pastor King.

Jesus died once and for all.  (but doesn't that leave out "Choice"? 

FOR:

Think on this...."IF" you could have your only one "WISH" from God.....would it be  "For ALL" to be saved just so the devil couldn't get them??????  Then you are with me!  The Bible does say that Hell was made for the devil....not anyone else.  And Heaven is "Sin Free".....and Fear Free....so then it wouldn't matter what one did here on earth would it.  (But can we be that callous here on earth and become pure evil............where there is no re-newed mind....you are in your own hell).

What of the person who commits murder.....is his brain haywired?  Did God make Him like that? Hardening his heart like he did Pharoah?  It was God's plan all along.  It says God hardenS some and others not.  God told them. God prepared. God showed. God/ Jesus died "Once" (he went THROUGH temptation and was without sin.....did he make a choice?) and for "ALL".....maybe ALL those who "Choose" Him back?  "ALL' those who love Him back....ALL those who BY FAITH get baptized and receive the Holy Ghost as a "Gift" as he said he would do. (At the time I received the baptism of the Holy Ghost- my slate WAS wiped clean(raptured?)and then came the milenium period in my life.......where I have to choose again to do Right or Wrong.  Thank God Jesus is still in business.  "Do ALL AS Unto the Lord.........and then it is not classified as "Works".

And so God gets 'ALL" the glory!

[preistsplace]

One of the most popular positions against us is that "God can only save those who let him. The very presence of the phrase "can only" seems to suggest something other than an almighty God.Almighty means  that he is CAN DO ANYTHING.(Luke 1 :27, Gen 18:14).
What do the scriptures say about Jesus? What was he here to do? The scriptures proclaim that he is the Son of God (Mat 3:17 John 1:29), and that he was sent to take away the Sin of the World(John1:29, 1Jn 4:14,Jn 4:42,1Ti 1:15, Jn12:47,). He took away the Sin of the world (Jn 19:30). Was buried and rose on the third day (Acts 10:40).
It is also very noteworthy that throuyght his life and ministry he made sure that every prophesy about him was filled. When Jesus was tempted by Satan in Mathew 4 , he responded with the words "it is written to every temptation.God's word is that powerful, and was that Important to Jesus that he use it to fight the devil and to teach, and also that he completed every prophecy about the Messiah.
Here are some Scriptures that say all men will be saved (Jn 12:32,Acts 2:17, Rom 5:12, Rom 5:18, 1Ti 2:4, 1Ti 4:10, Tit 2:11, 2 Pe 3:9) Think hard before you ansewer is God lying here , I have never known him to lie , and if he were to lie how could we trust him.In his life Jesus had such respect for his word do we expect anyless after his ressurection.
I know these versaes come in contrast with Mat 25:46 . For me this makes it even more obvious that aionios was mistranslated here . The word of God does not contradict it cannot because God is pure and honest.

[preistsplace]

Mat 5:2  And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,
Mat 5:3  Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:4  Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
Mat 5:5  Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
Mat 5:6  Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
Mat 5:7  Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
Mat 5:8  Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
Mat 5:9  Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
Mat 5:10  Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:11  Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
Mat 5:12  Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
Who is poorer in spirit,he who has accepted or he who has not?
There will be mourning in hell, will they not be comforted.
The first two are there giving hope even to those that do not believe yet and to those that will suffer, the rest seem to be promises for the elect.

[preistsplace]

In Matthew 7 :7-12 God is compared with an earthly father saying that God Knows how to give better gifts than our earthly fathers. I would think it only a natural extension of this concept to say that God's punishment is purposed to teach and chasten his children into the kingdom of heaven. At the very least speaking as  a father I can not fathom any being that would torture infinitely. If a man in this world commits such a thing(torture without release) he is locked up and his children taken away. We have denied the right to torture in the Geneva Convention, but the largest majority of christianity today says that God is love, and that he will torture the non believers in hell fire for all eternity, and they are completeley comfortable,.....?

[eaglesway]

I present UR along the scriptural path I received from the Holy Spirit as I searched the scriptures to "see whether these things be true"

   I present Colossians1:13-22, Ephesians 1:5-12 as a summary statements of the plan of God from beginning to end. I highlight the word "mystery", and bring in Acts 3:19, Romans 16:25 and others for confirmation of the mystery that was hidden and is now revealed- that it is gospel from the beginning. I note that His plan was always His "kind intention which He purposed in Him", and that "He works all things according to the counsel of His will", and that His will is the "summing up" or "gathering into one" all things in Christ. "That is not God's will that any man should perish" and that "God wills all men to be saved". I show that it is "an administration suitable to the fulness of times", and do a little groundwork on "the ages to come" and what the fulness of times has meant through out history(Acts 2:23; Gal 4:4; Heb 9:26; 1 Pe 1:20).
      I note that the "all things" that God is summing up and gathering into one is the same "all things" He created through, in ,by Christ. The same "all things" of John 1:3. The same all things of Heb 1;1-3. The same "all things" over which He has the preeminence and which hold together, and consist in Him. I ask, "What if anything, on earth or in heaven, visible or invisible, is excluded from the "all things" represented here." I then note that the method by which he determined to reconcile "all things" is the blood of the cross. I explain that Paul's clear intent in this portion of scripture is to demonstrate exactly this ultimate universal reconciliation, for why else would he juxtapose all these focus points on the "all things" in these few verses.
      I then go to 1 Corinthians 15:22-28 and Romans 11:32-36. I point out that "All was made was made by Him, and all is being reconciled unto Him, and every enemy is being made subject to Him so that God may be over ALL in ALL and through ALL- for from Him and through Him and to Him are all things." I point out that if much or most of the all He created is left in torment forever, why would Paul say the end of the plan is "to reconcile all things to Himself by the blood of His cross?" I also point out, "If God annihilates many or most of those whom He created, how can He reconcile all things?" "If most people are burning forever, or annihilated how can they be summed up or gathered into one in Christ." The math is mutually exclusive. It must be one or the other. Around this point I begin to bring in verses like 1 John 2:2, 1 Tim 2:5,6 -pointing out a number of scriptures that testify to the salvation of all. Now, having demonstrated the overview of the plan of God, and establishing a door of hope through which the person can see the rays of light, I go into some translation issues- showing that the "all" in Eph 1, Colossians 1, 1 Tim 2:6, 1 Cor 15, Ro 11 are "all" the same ALL, everything, every man, or all things of the major English translations, from the greek word "pas" using Strongs. Then I take them into "eternal" and "forever" and the translation issues concerning "aion", and hell vs "sheol-the grave" in order to present the difference between going to "the grave"or "the unseen" as opposed to going to hell(as in hades, greek mythology of eternal burning flames). I present the verses in Peter that bear witness to the gospel being preached to the spirits in prison- demonstrating that the wicked from the flood were "judged in the flesh as men" by death, but "made alive to God in the spirit"(to demonstrate that death is not the end of all opportunity)(1 Peter 3:18-4:6). I take them to verses about being delivered over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh(judged in the flesh as men) so that the spirit can be saved on the Day(made alive unto God in the spirit) and that many believers will be "saved as passing through flames"(1 Cor 3:14-15) to demonstrate that there are many levels to the judgment of God, and that they are all remedial. I point out that Jesus was "judged in the flesh as a man" "tasting death for everyone"and made alive in the Spirit unto God, so that as in Adam all men died, in Christ shall all men be made alive, But each in his own order, through the administration of the fulness of times.
  That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.(Eph 2:7) and  That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. (Eph 1:12)


   1) Those who are Christ's at His appearing. Col 1:21-23  And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled  In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:  If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard.(John 5:24,25)
   2) Those who are resurrected at the second resurrection who will go before the Great White Throne judgment
and be judged by the things written in the books, their conscience either excusing them or accusing them before the one who knows the secrets of mens hearts. The sheep will enter in to the joy of their Lord and the goats will experience a purging fire of indeterminate nature and duration, probably rendered individually according to their works and the secrets of their hearts, until every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of the Father, at which time they will also enter the reconciliation.(John 5:28,29)
  3) I point out how this satisfies the justice of God, the mercy of God and all the scriptures, while also pointing out that we see through a glass darkly, and there is much yet to learn, but that the basic math of Colossians 1:16-20, Eph 1:9-12, Romans 11:36; 1Jn 2:5,6 and 1 Cor 15:22-28 is undeniable. If there is eternal torment or mass annihilation....all those verses and many more are not the really Word of God....So just throw it all out as undependable, rather than believe God created all for the purpose of choosing out a few and torment or annihilate the rest forever.
  4) I also point out from 1 Cor 15 that as I see it, the only way God can abolish, "all rule power and authority" is if every will is finally reconciled in universal love and harmony, because keeping souls in a penalty or purging phase requires rule, power and authority, therefore, whatever the purging is, it will be done before Christ returns all things over to the Father so that God may be over all in all and through all
    Since the scriptures cannot be broken, and all scripture is God breathed and profitable for learning and exhortation, and since no prophecy of scripture is subject to any mans private interpretation, because they were delivered by holy men moved by God- I exhort the seeker, or opponent as the case may be, to be certain to resolve all these things in their own mind before taking the easy way out and agreeing with the religion they were taught. For those who receive, I go further into the scriptures and history to answer any other questions they have.

[Universalist Catholic]

I just found this scripture today.  Moses asks God the same question about making creation only to destroy it.

Exodus 32:11-14
11 But Moses sought the favor of the LORD his God. "O LORD," he said, "why should your anger burn against your people, whom you brought out of Egypt with great power and a mighty hand? 12 Why should the Egyptians say, 'It was with evil intent that he brought them out, to kill them in the mountains and to wipe them off the face of the earth'? Turn from your fierce anger; relent and do not bring disaster on your people. 13 Remember your servants Abraham, Isaac and Israel, to whom you swore by your own self: 'I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and I will give your descendants all this land I promised them, and it will be their inheritance forever.' " 14 Then the LORD relented and did not bring on his people the disaster he had threatened.

[eaglesway]

 

[Aleax]

Oh this one is easy to refute...

What UR teaches nullifies the Cross

That's roughly equivalent to "A doctor who's able to cure all his patients wouldn't be a very good doctor at all".

[WhiteWings]

If all are saved Jesus is a waste of time.
If none are saved Jesus is a waste of time.
If 5% are saved it's perfection....


I can't beat such logic....

[eaglesway]

For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
(Col 1:19-20)

Hmmmmm nullifies the cross?

Sort of like saying,

"If a bunch of folks don't burn forever- Jesus' death, burial and resurrection were all for nothing"!

[Aleax]

If 5% are saved it's perfection....

I guess it indeed is perfection if you have a mind set like this.

(See which section is the most popular one)

[Aleax]

What UR teaches give license to sin

One could argue what Calvinism teaches gives a license to sin.

Consider Jacob. In my opinion he wasn't exactly an epitome of a godly man or anything. Jacob was a swindler. His entire life consisted of cheating people and, in turn, also getting cheated by people. He was disobedient until the end; God insisted he changes his name to "Israel" yet Jacob only used his new name occasionally and preferred to be called "Jacob" most of the time. Yet, he was in the elect whereas Esau was not. Now if you look at it from a Calvinist perspective it's very easy to come into a conclusion that if you're sure you're in the "elect" you can just as well live like a devil, God's going to love you anyway.

[Cardinal]

If all are saved Jesus is a waste of time.
If none are saved Jesus is a waste of time.
If 5% are saved it's perfection....


I can't beat such logic....

  No kidding......funny how deceived we were, isn't it? 

[WhiteWings]

we?

were?