Apologetics - Universal Reconciliation > Arguments Against Universal Salvation

Aion punishment is a rehash of Catholic Doctrine.

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Peacetroll:
Aion punishment is nothing more then a rehash of 11th century Catholic doctrine called, Purgatory.
I. CATHOLIC DOCTRINE
Purgatory (Lat., "purgare", to make clean, to purify) in accordance with Catholic teaching is a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God's grace, are, not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions.

The faith of the Church concerning purgatory is clearly expressed in the Decree of Union drawn up by the Council of Florence (Mansi, t. XXXI, col. 1031), and in the decree of the Council of Trent which (Sess. XXV) defined:

"Whereas the Catholic Church, instructed by the Holy Ghost, has from the Sacred Scriptures and the ancient tradition of the Fathers taught in Councils and very recently in this Ecumenical synod (Sess. VI, cap. XXX; Sess. XXII cap.ii, iii) that there is a purgatory, and that the souls therein are helped by the suffrages of the faithful, but principally by the acceptable Sacrifice of the Altar; the Holy Synod enjoins on the Bishops that they diligently endeavor to have the sound doctrine of the Fathers in Councils regarding purgatory everywhere taught and preached, held and believed by the faithful" (Denzinger, "Enchiridon", 983).
Further than this the definitions of the Church do not go, but the tradition of the Fathers and the Schoolmen must be consulted to explain the teachings of the councils, and to make clear the belief and the practices of the faithful.

Temporal Punishment

That temporal punishment is due to sin, even after the sin itself has been pardoned by God, is clearly the teaching of Scripture. God indeed brought man out of his first disobedience and gave him power to govern all things (Wisdom 10:2), but still condemned him "to eat his bread in the sweat of his brow" until he returned unto dust. God forgave the incredulity of Moses and Aaron, but in punishment kept them from the "land of promise" (Numbers 20:12). The Lord took away the sin of David, but the life of the child was forfeited because David had made God's enemies blaspheme His Holy Name (2 Samuel 12:13-14). In the New Testament as well as in the Old, almsgiving and fasting, and in general penitential acts are the real fruits of repentance (Matthew 3:8; Luke 17:3; 3:3). The whole penitential system of the Church testifies that the voluntary assumption of penitential works has always been part of true repentance and the Council of Trent (Sess. XIV, can. xi) reminds the faithful that God does not always remit the whole punishment due to sin together with the guilt. God requires satisfaction, and will punish sin, and this doctrine involves as its necessary consequence a belief that the sinner failing to do penance in this life may be punished in another world, and so not be cast off eternally from God.

Read the rest of the article at:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm
I for one do not adhere to the Catholic doctrines, for certainly they are guilty of tormenting many true Saints in Christ throughout history. (See Paulicians, Sethians, Spanish Inquisitions etc. for more detail). 

If you can't trust a religion in the small things (treating others humane), how do we trust them in the big things? (doctrine and truth regarding scripture).
Purgatory or 'aion suffering' as to purify the soul was a theology developed as to justify and push usery on the general public.

 During the 13th century, the church's power was beginning to decline and the monetary economy was growing in strength. The problem was that usury, a necessary component of capitalism, was an unmitigated evil to the church. In an earlier book, "The Birth of Purgatory," Mr. Le Goff said that the doctrine of purgatory reached its full development in the late 12th century. In "Your Money or Your Life," purgatory is cast as the church's solution to the theological problem of usury. Before the development of purgatory, a usurer could reach heaven only by making restitution of his sinful gains, something rarely done. The advent of purgatory provided another route: "The hope of escaping Hell, thanks to Purgatory, permitted the usurer to propel the economy and society of the thirteenth century ahead toward capitalism." :thumbdown:

Read the following for more information:
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=940DE1DC143DF932A1575BC0A96E948260
I would not have you ignorant brothers and sisters in Christ.

Peacetroll.

bobf:

--- Quote from: Peacetroll on September 06, 2007, 09:22:07 PM ---Aion punishment is nothing more then a rehash of 11th century Catholic doctrine called, Purgatory.

--- End quote ---

Aionion Judgment

Matthew 10:15
Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

Jude 1:7
Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Judgment of Jerusalem

Ezekiel 16
38 And I will judge thee, as women that break wedlock and shed blood are judged; and I will give thee blood in fury and jealousy. 39  And I will also give thee into their hand, and they shall throw down thine eminent place, and shall break down thy high places: they shall strip thee also of thy clothes, and shall take thy fair jewels, and leave thee naked and bare. 40  They shall also bring up a company against thee, and they shall stone thee with stones, and thrust thee through with their swords. 41  And they shall burn thine houses with fire, and execute judgments upon thee in the sight of many women: and I will cause thee to cease from playing the harlot, and thou also shalt give no hire any more. 42  So will I make my fury toward thee to rest, and my jealousy shall depart from thee, and I will be quiet, and will be no more angry.

Jerusalem worse than Sodom

Ezekiel 16
49  Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. 50  And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good. 51  Neither hath Samaria committed half of thy sins; but thou hast multiplied thine abominations more than they, and hast justified thy sisters in all thine abominations which thou hast done.

52  Thou also, which hast judged thy sisters[, bear thine own shame for thy sins that thou hast committed more abominable than they: they are more righteous than thou: yea, be thou confounded also, and bear thy shame, in that thou hast justified thy sisters. 53 When I shall bring again their captivity, the captivity of Sodom and her daughters, and the captivity of Samaria and her daughters, then will I bring again the captivity of thy captives in the midst of them:

54 That thou mayest bear thine own shame, and mayest be confounded in all that thou hast done, in that thou art a comfort unto them. 55 When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate. 56 For thy sister Sodom was not mentioned by thy mouth in the day of thy pride,

57 Before thy wickedness was discovered, as at the time of thy reproach of the daughters of Syria, and all that are round about her, the daughters of the Philistines, which despise thee round about. 58 Thou hast borne thy lewdness and thine abominations, saith the LORD. 59 For thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even deal with thee as thou hast done, which hast despised the oath in breaking the covenant.

60 Nevertheless I will remember my covenant with thee in the days of thy youth, and I will establish unto thee an everlasting covenant. 61 Then thou shalt remember thy ways, and be ashamed, when thou shalt receive thy sisters, thine elder and thy younger: and I will give them unto thee for daughters, but not by thy covenant. 62  And I will establish my covenant with thee; and thou shalt know that I am the LORD: 63  That thou mayest remember, and be confounded, and never open thy mouth any more because of thy shame, when I am pacified toward thee for all that thou hast done, saith the Lord GOD.


To summarize, here is what I gather from this:
- They committed sins worse than Sodom and are judged accordingly.
- God will "nevertheless" be pacified toward them for all they have done.
- God will "nevertheless" establish his covenant with them.
- They will remember their ways that were worse than Sodom's and be ashamed and confounded.
- God will restore Sodom in their midst at that time.

Peacetroll:
Of course we can only best understand with vagueness, regardless the best one can do is take the totality of scripture and seek for the overall meaning (with multiple scriptural witnesses).

Jude 1:7
Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

I believe Jude is speaking of the cities themselves.  The cities (sodom and gomorrha), are eternally gone, as are the cities about them in like manner.  They will no longer exist.  But the people in them will be given more latitude because they had not heard the true word as the Pharisee's did when Jesus spoke to them.


I believe Sodom and Gomorrah were more then likely  people who were of God but were in darkness.  Without knowledge of the Light/Truth (Christ), we live in darkness as beasts. Had Sodom and Gomorrha had heard the truth concerning God, they would have repented, unlike those who are not of God.

Matthew 10:
 14And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.

 15Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.


 Thus we can not judge anyone's eternal position.  But there are those who are of the Father(spirits of Truth) and there are those who are of Satan (spirits of error), those with the spirit of error shall hardly enter the kingdom of God.

1 John 4:6
We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

John 8:46-48 (King James Version)

46Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?

 47He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

 48Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil?

We all do good to  believe Christ and his testimony first and foremost with regards to scripture...

Matthew 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

For he is the pure unadulterated truth.

Matthew 23:13
But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

Mark 10:24
And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God!

John 3
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 6:40
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:53
Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

1 John 5:11
And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

Without Jesus Christ there is no life in a person.  Without the Holy Spirit within us, we are not 'Men', but beasts.  Without faith in Christ we shall not see life but only death.  Many who foresake him now will come to him during the Millinium.  This Millinium is the day of Judgement that Jesus spoke of, a concept that is greatly misunderstood throughout Christianity.
 
John 8:24
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Peace to all in Christ Jesus.

I've ended this post...believe what you are led to believe.  But I certainly will not trust the Catholic Church for doctrine of such importance.  For they have manipulated the scripture for centuries for their own ends.

P.S. Martin Luther warned everyone that the Catholic Church was manipulating scripture and injecting false theologies long ago.  Don't believe me, do your own research.

97531:
Peacetroll

Although I am adamantly opposed to tradition in all its forms, the RCC doctrine of purgatory IMO was a way out for the initial introduction of ET.  Pretty much, the deeper you dig, the more error one finds.  However, Annihilationism is little better than ET as the end result is still destruction of ~95% of people that ever lived and IMO that still leaves a pretty feeble god.  It also makes no consideration for the Pre-Christ humanity and also those post-Christ who never had the opportunity or did not understand the good news.

I am not going to bother quoting proof text of the resurrection of all but they are there and many of your proof texts can be refuted in context of their presentation.

It all depends how one views:

1. Judgement - here and now or later
2. Millenial Reign - is it a literal 1000 years or is is symbolic
3. The Lake of Fire - symbolic or literal, here and now or later and what is it exactly that goes into the LoF
4. The White Throne Judgement - Are born again believers exempt or not
5. Kingdom - here and now or future or is it heaven

I could go on but suffice to say, there are too many things to consider as one's view of these points will affect how one views these matters.

Blessings

Peacetroll:
I don't know exactly where or how to explain what has been given to me.  I am not a good teacher, nor am I articulate and obviously I'm not a good speller (I have to use spell check constantly), but I will give it a try....

Mark 6:11
And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

When is this day of judgment?  We must seek scripture (here a little there a little), to even begin to understand the millinium.  The millinium will be a time when Christ returns (the second coming), and he will rule the earth (this kingdom), with an iron rod (power); nation will no longer war with other nations, peace will be king.

Isaiah 2:2
And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

Micah 4:1
But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.


1 Corinthians 5
 1It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
 2And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
 3For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
 4In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
 5To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

First he must bind Satan (the god of this world; I.E. you must bind the strong man before you can raid his house):

Revelation 20:
 2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

 3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

 4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

These are his Saints that appear in the air with Jesus at his second coming....

Jude 1:
 14And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

 15To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

 16These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.

All who trusted not in Christ will be again, to face Christ and choose whom they will serve:

Isaiah 14:9
Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.

Again, Paul gave knowledge to us concerning this day...

Acts 2:19-21 (King James Version)
 19And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
 20The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:
 21And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved

Isaiah 11
 1And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:

 2And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;

 3And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:

 4But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth: with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.

 5And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.

 6The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. (This is the millinium)
 7And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

 8And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.

 9They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

 10And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles (Gentiles are those without the Holy Spirit indwelling) seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

 11And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.

 12And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

 13The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim.

 14But they shall fly upon the shoulders of the Philistines toward the west; they shall spoil them of the east together: they shall lay their hand upon Edom and Moab; and the children of Ammon shall obey them.

 15And the LORD shall utterly destroy the tongue of the Egyptian sea; and with his mighty wind shall he shake his hand over the river, and shall smite it in the seven streams, and make men go over dryshod.

 16And there shall be an highway for the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria; like as it was to Israel in the day that he came up out of the land of Egypt.

Joel 2:30-32 (King James Version)
30And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
 31The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD come.
 32And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call(this remnant is the Saints who come back to earth with Jesus during the Millinium, we could call it his government).

Revelation 2
 25But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.
 26And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:   27And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
 28And I will give him the morning star.
 29He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Revelation 12:4-6 (King James Version)
 4And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
 5And she brought forth a man child, who ((was)) to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.


Revelation 19:14-16 (King James Version)
 14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
 15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
 16And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Obadiah 1:14-16 (King James Version)
 14Neither shouldest thou have stood in the crossway, to cut off those of his that did escape; neither shouldest thou have delivered up those of his that did remain in the day of distress.
 15For the day of the LORD is near upon all the heathen: as thou hast done, it shall be done unto thee: thy reward shall return upon thine own head.
 16For as ye have drunk upon my holy mountain, so shall all the heathen drink continually, yea, they shall drink, and they shall swallow down, and they shall be as though they had not been.
 17But upon mount Zion shall be deliverance, and there shall be holiness; and the house of Jacob shall possess their possessions.

 18And the house of Jacob shall be a fire, and the house of Joseph a flame, and the house of Esau for stubble, and they shall kindle in them, and devour them; and there shall not be any remaining of the house of Esau; for the LORD hath spoken it. (remember, jacob he loved, but Esau he hates???!!!)
 
19And they of the south shall possess the mount of Esau; and they of the plain the Philistines: and they shall possess the fields of Ephraim, and the fields of Samaria: and Benjamin shall possess Gilead.

These are all prophecies in regards to the Millinium the day of the Lord, the day of his return, the day that the Saints will come with him as a government to rule over the Nations with an iron rod.  In that day all flesh will be once again raised (Hell and the earth shall give up their dead), and those who had not trusted him in the first life (thus the first death), will gain the opportunity to learn and trust in the Lord (Jesus), with the truth explained clearly and concisely. 

May God bless you 1 million times over in understanding and faith.

Peace in Christ.

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