Author Topic: A yahoo answers response to UR  (Read 1541 times)

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Offline fullarmor2

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A yahoo answers response to UR
« on: December 28, 2007, 04:00:39 AM »
   I asked a question on Answers. What do you think of the UR position on eternal?  I got this answer from a very respected  Christian scholar on Answers. Schneb's Avatar by Schneb
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This is rather a foolish thing to rest one's destiny on. OK, let's not look at the Greek for now, let us look at the Hebrew.

And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt. - Daniel 12:2

Is heaven everlasting, or just temporary? The angel that spoke to Daniel proclaimed that both are "everlasting" and are the same word "owlam" in the Hebrew. In Genesis 21:33, the same word is used in "everlasting God". So are the Unversalists god a finite god? You can't have it both ways.

Isaiah described (and Jesus confirmed it three times) that hell is a place where the maggot will continue to feed on your flesh, and the fire of torment will NEVER be abated.
Isa 66:24 - "And they shall go forth and look Upon the corpses of the men Who have transgressed against Me. For their worm does not die, And their fire is not quenched.

OK, so now let us see if the Greek agrees with the Hebrew.

Jude 7 - ...suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
The Greek for eternal is "aionios" which is also used earlier in the same book in Jude 1:21 for "eternal life". So is heaven temporary, or are both forever and ever? Again, you cannot have one translation for one usage of the word, and another translation for the same word elsewhere.

Eternal means just that--forever and ever without end. Best to deal with truth as truth and not try and sugar coat it because it makes you or your congregation uncomfortable.
For all those who live in the shadow of death,  a glorious light has dawned!  And for all those who stumble in the darkness,   behold,   your light has come!!

Offline dboutwell

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Re: A yahoo answers response to UR
« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2007, 07:05:03 AM »
Quote
Some to shame and everlasting contempt. - Daniel 12:2

That does not seem synonymous with eternal torture to me. It seems to be just what it says...Why couldn't it be that the ones who were given "more" (the oracles of God), when they realize the enormity of what they could have had as the elect of God and what they lost by not yeilding to Christ, are ashamed of themselves? I don't see being raised to "contempt" as being equal to endless torture either. It seems to mean repulsive or looked down on for sure though.

I know this is not the same Hebrew word for shame that Daniel used, but I believe it makes the point.

Isa 49:23     And kings shall be thy nursing fathers, and their queens thy nursing mothers: they shall bow down to thee with their face toward the earth, and lick up the dust of thy feet; and thou shalt know that I am the LORD: for they shall not be ashamed that wait for me. 

Isa 50:7    For the Lord GOD will help me; therefore shall I not be confounded: therefore have I set my face like a flint, and I know that I shall not be ashamed.
 
Isa 54:4    Fear not; for thou shalt not be ashamed: neither be thou confounded; for thou shalt not be put to shame: for thou shalt forget the shame of thy youth, and shalt not remember the reproach of thy widowhood any more. 

Isa 65:13    Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, my servants shall eat, but ye shall be hungry: behold, my servants shall drink, but ye shall be thirsty: behold, my servants shall rejoice, but ye shall be ashamed

Isa 66:5     Hear the word of the LORD, ye that tremble at his word; Your brethren that hated you, that cast you out for my name's sake, said, Let the LORD be glorified: but he shall appear to your joy, and they shall be ashamed

I don't even have a problem saying that this particular shame will be everlasting. Granted, ALL will know the Lord but that doesn't mean all have the same status.

Every knee will bow and all men everywhere will repent but the ones who do not put their trust in God and totally depend on Christ for their righteousness will be ashamed....children of the garbage dump, worthless to the kingdom of God.

Mt 5:13
Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted ? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.

Heb 10:29
Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

The parable of the treasure in the field seems to say this too. Even though the "blood of the covenant" has sanctified those who count it an unholy thing it doesn't seem that they have the exalted position of the treasure hidden in the field.....they do seem to be blest by the overflow though.

Even though the shame may be endless, not for one minute do I believe God ever intended to torture anyone...for any amount of time.

There's much to be gained by saying yes to God!

just my thoughts at this time and they may be totally different this time next week. I am still very much learning....

Debbie :2c:







Blessings :)

Debbie

SLN

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Re: A yahoo answers response to UR
« Reply #2 on: December 30, 2007, 07:39:10 PM »
Romans 16:25 (26 included for context)

25And to Him who is able to establish you, according to my good news, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the secret, in the times of the ages having been kept silent

 26and now having been made manifest, also, through prophetic writings, according to a command of the age-during God, having been made known to all the nations for obedience of faith --


Eternally having been kept secret, but now revealed? Clearly, this is impossible. When something is kept secret eternally, it can never be revealed.

Greek:

[Τῷ δὲ δυναμένῳ ὑμᾶς στηρίξαι κατὰ τὸ εὐαγγέλιόν μου καὶ τὸ κήρυγμα Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ, κατὰ ἀποκάλυψιν μυστηρίου χρόνοις αἰωνίοις σεσιγημένου

The word used:

αἰώνιος,a  {ahee-o'-nee-os}
1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and  always will be  2) without beginning  3) without end, never to cease, everlasting    For Synonyms see entry 5801

Obvious to everyone though, is that "eternal" isn't what is meant in this context (since it has already been revealed, it can not be be eternally kept a secret)

_________________________________________________________

Now for another verse, 1timothy 6:16

 16who only is having immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable, whom no one of men did see, nor is able to see, to whom [is] honour and might age-during! Amen.


Let's examine this verse. It speaks of immortality. Nothing indicates eternity more than immortality. Yet they speak of age-during. Oddly enough, the same word is used in Romans 16:25 to indicate something that was (by context) very obviously temporal.

Here's the greek:


ὁ μόνος ἔχων ἀθανασίαν, φῶς οἰκῶν ἀπρόσιτον, ὃν εἶδεν οὐδεὶς ἀνθρώπων οὐδὲ ἰδεῖν δύναται: ᾧ τιμὴ καὶ κράτος αἰώνιον: ἀμήν.


The word used:

αἰώνιος,a  {ahee-o'-nee-os}
1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and  always will be  2) without beginning  3) without end, never to cease, everlasting    For Synonyms see entry 5801



I know next to nothing about greek, and a lot of the information I summarised here was provided by people on other forums. I did personally look up the greek verses first though (on http://www.greekbible.com/, verses included in this post) to see if aionios really is the word that is used in these verses.

Quote
Again, you cannot have one translation for one usage of the word, and another translation for the same word elsewhere.

Apparently, it can. Or the bible doesn't make any sense.

Hope this helps,

SLN
« Last Edit: December 30, 2007, 09:38:00 PM by SLN »

martincisneros

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Re: A yahoo answers response to UR
« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2008, 06:50:09 AM »
I'll only notice this in passing because these so-called contrasts between everlasting life and everlasting contempt or punishment get really boring after a while.  For how many centuries have Universalists got to give conclusive [Biblical] answers [that are consistent and make sense] to these that leave no wiggle room before ETers recognize the error of their ways and come out from everlasting shame and contempt?!

Daniel 12:2 says that many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake...

First of all, let's back up to the first verse where He's specifically talking about Israel and keep this in context that He's speaking of the judgment of Israel, which Paul says in Romans must end in salvation -- regardless of however many hoops they make the grace of God leap through as they go from one Deuteronomy 28 judgment to the next.

This passage in Daniel is also sorta like the passage in Genesis, which I believe is in the 12th chapter where God says I'll bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you, and in your seed all of the families of the earth will be blessed.  That last part indicating that the curse must be reversed if in the seed all of the families of the earth will be blessed.  Those who are cursed for cursing Abraham have their curse reversed through the Seed.  That's plain enough.

This in Daniel is the exact same way when you compare the 2nd and 3rd verses of Daniel 12, where the first verse tells us that He's talking about Israel; second verse gives you everlasting life and everlasting contempt, and the third verse says that those who have insight will shine brightly like the brightness of the expanse of heaven, and those who lead the many to righteousness like the stars forever and ever.  This is the same many being made righteous who found the broad way to destruction in Jesus's teachings, who are consequently made righteous in Romans 5.  Presumably in the 3rd verse of Daniel 12 we have the Gentiles that have been grafted into Israel leading the many Jews who arose to shame and everlasting contempt past all of that into the place of righteousness through Jesus Christ.