Annihilationism verses UR.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi T-tank...  

Continuing...

willieH:   I challenge you to name even ONE THING that is subject to your power of "choosing" which is UNINHIBITED by any CONFINING and/or LIMITING parameters... Just one...  

Ok that one thing I can do hmmm, got it, I'll give ya a clue, it's part of my screen name;)

Do I get a $5000 prize?

As I said... you would CREATE EVASIVENESS, and you only display the insight I already have of you...

Quite beating around the bush, with your vague him-haw T-tank, and NAME one thing, ...if you can.  

willieH:   Hmmm, can you EAT your car?  Or can you EAT your house?  How about EATING your favorite football team?  Or maybe EATING the street in front of your house? How about EATING the MOON, can you do that? Or EAT Mount Everest?  laughhand

I think many women comment that they would eat David Beckam. Hansel and Gretel also eat a house made of candy. As for mount everest, if ye have faith the size of a mustard seed ye shall say unto that mountain, be thou changed into Mcdonalds and it shall be given unto you.
 

Not much of an answer... mostly "created" sarcastic evasions which, as I noted previously that you would do... instead of answer directly.

willieH:   What cop-out is this...  

You had no CHOICE in being born, but you have (are FORCED) to live with it?  That sounds like your entire LIFE began by the insertion of you into a scenario in which your CHOOSING shall be LIMITED throughout that LIFE, but you had NO CHOICE as to entering this scenario of LIMITED, predecided choosing!

The labeling or categorizing of the LIMITED "choices" which were eventually made AVAILABLE to you, was also done WITHOUT your consent (whether they would be considered evil or good)... EVIL choices were declared EVIL before YOU had a chance to consider them... as well as GOOD, so your "choosing" was further inhibited and done aside from, you and your power to "choose" from them

That's what I'm saying, but people throughout history continually look at what they CANNOT do instead of enjoying and appreciating what they CAN do and everything we can do has been given to us by God, but by our disobedience and rebellion we go against that which is good and do that which is evil.

The argument that we are slaves to sin is no longer valid in todays world, for God said, we are either slaves to sin or to righteousness.

FIRST --- You continue to evade instead of answer... No man CAN COME to CHRIST, except he/she is DRAGGED unto Him -- John 6:44 -- and even then only via the REVELATION decided by the WORD, shall he/she come to be revealed -- Matt 11:27 --

It is evidenced in Scripture that MANY "believers" shall preach of CHRIST and DECIEVE MANY -- Matt 24:5 -- and that these MANY shall present their "works" before Him, and propose their worthiness (just as did Cain)... and those "wonderful works" shall be named INIQUITY -- Matt 7:22-23

SECOND --- We follow the pathway that GOD designates we walk -- Jer 10:23 -- Eph 2:10 -- Rom 9:16 -- that we "enjoy" it or not, is not the POINT of this realm...

The POINT of this realm is the REVELATION of the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL, as KNOWN in the HEART and WORD of YHVH God... revealed via the interactions of His CHILDREN with BOTH.

God came to Empower us to do that which we could not do before the death of Christ. Doing good is much harder than evil, but God never said it would be easy, in fact he continually said its a tough road, the road is narrow that leads to life. But the thing is, imagine how much better life would be if people stopped being so selfish and instead did that which is good.

Nice sounding philosphy, but all this is, ...is an assertion of YOURS which is incomplete of insight... DAVID did Good, MOSES did Good, ENOCH did Good, ELIJAH did Good, DANIEL did Good... all before the manifestation of CHRIST in this realm.

The more people that do good, the easier it is for everyone else to do good also, it has a knock on effect, and this is one thing that Jesus has accomplished, but even now the amount of good that Christians do in the world is pretty poor and the world should be a better place to live in, but many Christians still do that which is evil, try and explain that?

Whether "Christian" or not...

They are doing as was DECLARED by YHVH, that they would "do"... Those who follow the pathway of destruction, regardless of RELIGION... are doing so, because they are not CHOSEN to walk the pathway of LIFE -- Eph 2:10

Look at towns that have a unselfish attitude, their community service and kindness to their neigbours makes living a delight, because they all practice it, but try being the light in a community of darkness and it'll be hell, it takes great courage and the dark forces there will not enjoy your presence.

Don't know your experience bro... but I was raised in East L.A., and I am very experienced in LIVING in an ADVERSE environment!  Also, I do not just post here in the UR friendly confines of Tentmaker... I have spent many days preaching UR in the hostile environments of ET and Annhilation forums... as well as actively doing so amongst the Churches with which I was once affiliated (Salvation Army/ET and SDA/Annhilation)...

Its Gods will that all be saved, even now

Now is come salvation

It is GOD's INTENT that ALL be saved, T-tank -- 1 Pet 3:9 -- so they WILL be SAVED!

It's Gods will all be healed, but the church is too weak to perform healing miracles, where are the churches that heal the sick? More interested in religion and apearing holy than ministering to the outcasts and excercising the power of Jesus, didn't the apostle Paul say that in the last days, they would have a form of godliness but deny the power thereof.

Oh yes, he did... But the HEALING that you seek is NOT of the FLESH...  Paul also said that we are to KNOW NO MAN AFTER THE FLESH -- 2 Cor 5:16 -- so if you seek that HEALING appear of the FLESH... then your focus is NOT upon the SPIRIT.  The GREATER Healing is found in the SPIRIT, which is where all other things EMMANATE.

The FLESH is just a reflection (mirage of sorts)... The SPIRIT is REALITY.

willieH:   (1) the ERA in which you were born, inhibits your choosing -- a person born in 500 A.D. could not "choose" to take the subway to work, or read a Stephen King novel...

Nay, but they can choose to jump on a horse or to take a mule such as Jesus did. They can listen to bible stories or listen to the great exploits of Ceasar.

They are STILL confined... which is my point -- you CANNOT just "do anything you want".

willieH:  (2) the parents you were born to LIMITS your choosing -- a person born to a homeless parent, can't just "choose" to buy a new Porche, or take a European vacation in Rome...

No, but they can determine in their heart that they will not make the same mistakes as their parents, the poor of this world tend to have poor attitudes, weak attitudes, but some of the poor develop a good attitude rags to riches stories are not just fantasy but for real, check them out. The reasons why the poor are poor are as numerous as books, obviosly some are victims, but many are victims of their own dissmal attitude. What ye reap ya sow.

Don't know how "old" you are T-tank... but you appear to speak with the voice of "LIFE INEXPERIENCE"...  We might not make the SAME mistakes as did our parents... we shall make WORSE ones...  Which is WHY the world is DEGENERATING... If we indeed learned by watching the mistakes of our parents, and implemented a mistake-free program... then the world would NOT DEGENERATE, it would move in the opposite direction.

You evade the wisdom of the Scriptures which note that some afflictions are for the GLORY of GOD and this continues to this day.   For in the deliverance of ALL (to include such as HITLER) which contain the HEINOUSNESS of mankind, is GOD GLORIFIED... just as he was here:  John 9:1-3  

JESUS noted that His followers would do greater things... so the examples of His ministry would be availed in His [CHOSEN] followers as well... You do not follow, because YOU have decided to... you nor I, follow the pathway of TRUTH only... ONLY, ...if either has been CHOSEN to do so -- John 15:16

willieH:  (3) the gender you were born in LIMITS your "choosing" -- a female cannot "choose" to be a father

These days I'm not so sure

 

willieH:   (4) the city you were born in LIMITS your "choosing" -- a person born in Central Kansas, cannot "choose" to go the beach...

Wanna bet!

OCEAN beach... (sorry for not being specific)... but you are really struggling to hold your position aren't you...  

willieH:   (5) the person striken with cancer, cannot just "choose" to be healthy...

No but they can determine in their heart that health is what God provided for them and paid with stripes for. Any sick among you, call the elders and they shall pray and they shall recover. Miracle stories again are for real, check them out.

I am battling this disease T-tank... don't think more of your position than you should.    Get your eyes off the FLESH... and you shall see in the SPIRIT more clearly.

willieH:   (6) the person amidst a famine, cannot just "choose" to not be hungry...

The man in India might disagree, he has lived for 70 years without food!

  ...the noose is tightening around your traditions...

willieH:   (7) the person born Chinese, cannot just "choose" to be a Caucasion...

No but they can enjoy their ethnicity and make the most of their culture and the enjoyments that they have or they can live life in jealousy of their caucasion cousins

Evasiveness is your only reply...  

Why not address the point, T-tank?  Your "choosings" are LIMITED to options provided by GOD...

willieH:  (8) the person born with no arms cannot "choose" to play the piano...

I saw a woman with no arms, who looked after her baby by herself and changed nappies with her feet!

More of the same nonsense...  Failing to address, ...obstinate, ...clinging to the mirage of your supposed "control" (via "choosings") which is non-existent.

willieH:   (9) the wealthiest person in the world cannot by their "choice", ...make another to love them...

But how much many people would love them if they gave of their riches to them in their despair, would the starving person appreciate/love the kind person who would give of their substance to feed them, of course they would. But by their "choice" some do not give and so how can they be loved?
Bill gates for example is a very wealthy man who is loved by many, including me, who has gave billions of his wealth to charities.

How difficult it shall be for the RICH MAN to enter into LIFE... If you know anything about the RICH, you shall know that the MORE they get, the GREEDIER they get.

Bill Gates and his life are not my concern, neither shall he recieve praise, or judgment from me of his doings...  Do you know if he is giving of that which actually INFRINGES upon him?  Or because he is a multibillionaire, that exceeds comprehension... that he is giving of his excess?  I do not know, do you?  I believe your observation of this man (or any other), is gained of hearsay, or via surface observation.  

TRUE giving is that which COSTS the giver... relieving him/her of their possessions, time, even of LIFE, for there is NO GREATER LOVE than giving your LIFE for another.  A billionaire that gives a few million, is not impinging himself financially... no more than a man with 20K in the bank, puts $20 in the offering plate.  If this man puts $10K in the offering plate... THEN you're talking!  

willieH:   The "rules" are the same here as they are in Heaven... We have been PURPOSED to break them in the LIVING DISPLAY [man] of the LIVING KNOWLEDGE of Good and Evil, as ETERNALLY and UNCHANGINGLY, ...KNOWN in the Heart of YHVH God, which DECLARED ALL THINGS before they occured.

I don't think it helps the wicked to know this, for they want an excuse to sin, blaming God for their misfortune or evil, that is something that Job did, but God told him to be quiet and in the end received more than what he had before the destruction. But would God have blessed him if his attitude was continually blaming God?

He was being blessed AS he objected, just as are all men...

We have no right to object to our circumstances -- Rom 9:20 -- Only to appeal to God to lighten the load, and cast with TRUST, that care upon HIM...  

GOD blesses the JUST and the UNJUST, when NEITHER have asked.  Did you thank GOD for digesting your food today?  Or did you thank Him for continuing to breathe?  How about, the country you live in?  Or maybe the legs you walk with?

If you consider yourself of the "just", wherein is your thanks?

Should I Infect  this forum with virus and blame God for that? no you people would look at me and say, repent for your evil, for out of the heart proceeds such an evil thought.

If you did... it has already been declared that you would.  We are to become content in all circumstances... giving thanks, even in times of sorrow or difficulty...   (btw it cost me $104 day before yesterday to replace the power supply in my computer... God provided  )

willieH:   Get used to it my new friend, T-tank... this LIFE is NOT about YOU... nor about me... this is about OUR GOD, and HIS wonderful WISDOMS revealed, which include the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL.

The sooner that anyone in humility, take ones eyes off ONESELF (and ones "choosings"), the sooner that one shall KNOW GOD, and that ALL is emergent FROM [by] HIM, and FOR HIM (not "for" you or "for" me) -- Col 1:16

Then within the HUMILITY and MAJESTY of the ABANDONMENT of SELF, ...shall one KNOW that YHVH is GOD... and that we are HIS PLEASURE, ...COMPLETELY HIS, ...to do with as He so pleases -- Rom 9:20 [why hast thou MADE ME THUS?] -- Isaiah 46:10 [I WILL DO all MY pleasure --- that being with -- ALL THINGS "not yet done"

Good im glad you call me new friend and God is the source of all life and all that is good, you sayest truly to love God with all your heart strength and soul and to love your neighbour as oneself.

ALL men and women are my brothers and sisters... NONE of them shall be destroyed... only that which is proportionate to EVIL in any of us, shall meet destruction... the brothers and sisters shall ALWAYS be so to me forever.  Including you.  

...willieH  

[willieH]

willieH: ...T-tank...  

Bad post.  

Me and you are on the same page, (together we can defeat these evil universalists )

Personally, I resent you, even in gest, ...attaching the word EVIL to "universalists"!  What gives you this right?  Who of the believers in the Salvation of ALL, has attached this word (evil) to YOU?  

You often speak with one foot in your mouth, this is a real good example of it.  

but here's something I pondered on. Most people or all people do not know Jesus Christ in full and especially evil people.

Define "evil people"?  Is that someone who is ENTIRELY EVIL?  And what BASIS do you use to make such a sorrowful determination?  Yourself?  

What were YOU before you became a believer, T-tank?  Maybe an UNBELIEVER?  

Were you therefore, an "EVIL people"?    Due the DAMNATION of GOD?  

We only see through the glass darkly and nobody has had a full revelation of the love of Jesus Christ. So how much can love change a person?
I think love can change people greatly, how many people truly love evil more than love?

Hmmm... when the Scripture notes -- John 6:44 -- that NO MAN ...CAN... come to CHRIST (for this "love" to change them), then who is their "evil" state up to?  

They cannot of themselves come to the one who can CHANGE them, so how is it their fault, that they are "EVIL"?  What were YOU before you believed, T-tank?  An "EVIL PEOPLE"?    Was it YOUR FAULT you did not "come" before you did, even though you did not possess the ability to "come"?

Unlike [1] Satan who once was part of heaven, [2] people do not know God as much as he did.

The first of several sets of Unscriptural assertions in this post...

Please note where it says in the Scriptures...

(1) that "satan" was once a part of heaven
(2) that "satan" ...knew... God (more than do people)

Also during the 1000 millenium peace,

The second set of your Unscriptural assertions in this post...

(1) where is the term "MILLENNIUM" noted in the Scriptures?
(2) where is the "MILLENIUM PEACE" noted in the Scriptures?

I don't belive that Jesus will be accessible to the masses, but only to the saints, for flesh and blood cannot see God, so the only source of truth that people will get from God during the millenium would be from the Jewish nation, Abraham, Issac and Jacob, so even then they don't get a full idea of God.

The third set of your Unscriptural assertions in this post...

(1)  Where is it stated that JESUS (who has no respect of persons) will not be accessable to the masses?  He said:  "I will NEVER leave you or forsake you" -- Heb 13:5 -- the word "NEVER" implies -- NOT at ANY TIME... so if there is NO TIME that JESUS (who NEVER CHANGES) shall be unavailable to men, wherein is truth in your assertion?

(2)  Where is it stated that the JEWISH nation shall be a "source of truth"?
(3)  Where is it stated that this (assertion) will take place in the "MILLENNIUM"? (which terminology, is not mentioned in the Scriptures, rather is an ADDITION to it)

(this is something i'm working on, so don't quote me on this bit above)

If you are not sure of these things, why are you posting them?  

The disciples asked Jesus

Who then can be saved?
With men things are impossible, but with God all things are possible

I think that there proves that God will not force anybody to make him love him,

Of course He shall not FORCE anyone to LOVE Him... once He reveals

(1) who you actually ARE -- to you
(2) Who He is in proximity to WHO you ARE
(3) You agree that WHO you ARE, is not acceptable... no "forcing" was done at all.

There was a time, when YOU did not believe in or "LOVE" God... Did He FORCE you to LOVE Him?  How and WHY, did you come to "LOVE" Him?

otherwise he would say "im God fools I can do whatever I want" and I think the idea is absurd. A man doesn't woe a girl by taking her by force but romances her and then she can say yes or no.

God is not a MAN, and is not to be compared to a MAN (per your example of wooing a girl)... His ways and thoughts (such as "wooing girls") are HIGHER than ours... His POWER is HIGHER than ours...  

God does not need to take anything by "FORCE"... He reveals WHO and WHAT He ...IS... which is LOVE... and when LOVE is revealed in its power, there is nothing in existence that can, or even desires, to RESIST it.  

There's nothing glorifying about God forcing people to love him, but it is glory on the other hand for people who willingly worship him because of his absolute brilliance that even the wicked have to take off their hats and say truly truly you are the rightfull God.

Take off their hats?  

You have already been shown that no man "WILLINGLY" comes to GOD... Man is DRAGGED... BY GOD... unto the WORD -- John 6:44 -- and even then... it is according to the DECLARATION of the WORD, as to whether or not the FATHER shall be REVEALED -- Matt 11:27 -- for all who walk the pathway of TRUTH are FOREORDAINED to do so -- Eph 2:10

There are scriptures which do indicate that all will be saved, such as "in Adam all die, but in Christ all shall be made alive"

Emphasis on the word ...IN... in both scenarios...

Howeven i'm not one of those who simply ignores those other scriptures, which point to damnation,

There is no "DAMNATION"... the word translated by RELIGIONISTS as "damnation",  ...is JUDGMENT... look it up... do a bit research before freely spouting fallacies.  

but in the context that God saves everyone, perhaps those damnation scriptures are stating something, such as punishment for the wicked, even though they might get saved eventually.

Forked tongue wordings which are "all over the place"...  which conveniently  concerning "punishments" and "wickedness", DISINCLUDE YOU of course...

God has no respect of persons (perfectly impartial) -- Acts 10:34 (and 9 others) -- and (eternally and PERFECTLY) LOVES the WORLD -- John 3:16 -- and CASTS OUT FEAR by the investments of LOVE -- 1 John 4:18 -- and KEEPS NO RECORD of SIN -- 2 Cor 5:19 -- Psalm 130:3 -- and He (evidently) did NOT "punish you" when He saved YOU... yet as you spread your vile beliefs, you easily note punishments for others...  

You propose the one who "LOVES the WORLD", as "damning" MOST of it...

When He sent His son NOT to do so -- John 3:17 -- Why would He send His Son to NOT CONDEMN/DAMN... and the Son NEVER ONCE, condemns/damns anyone...  and then turn FACE, and freely "condemn/damn"?

Within the Saviors final words, He says -- "Father FORGIVE THEM for the KNOW NOT what the DO" -- what do you think it is, ...that "they" ..."DO", T-tank?    Are YOU part of this "THEY" He speaks of?  

Yet you would propose (exempting yourSELF of course), that GOD shall "punish" the "wicked" and that they might "eventually" be saved?  

How does that SELF oriented T-shirt fit?  What of YOUR SIN?  What of YOUR WICKEDNESS?  Was it PUNISHED?  If not, WHY?  After all, you were an UNBELIEVER!  YOUR SINS had their part in the DEATH of the Savior!  Whattupwidat?

Oh yeah... you are exempt because you "believe"... and now proudly wear the "T-shirt of CONDEMNATION" which gives you place to condemn others...

By doing and proposing, the CONDEMNATION that JESUS was sent NOT to do, ...and did NOT condemn, nor PROPOSE condemnation...  

How do you possibly get the message of PEACE and GOOD NEWS that we are to preach to the WORLD that GOD so LOVES -- Rom 10:15 -- Eph 6:15 -- out of such sorrowful and misled information, T-tank?

Paul noted a "THINK" oriented verse that you should consider THINKtank:

Phil 4:8 --- finally brethren, whatsoever things are TRUE, whatsoever things are JUST, whatsoever things are PURE, whatsoever things are LOVELY, whatsoever things are of GOOD REPORT, if there be any VIRTUE and if there be any PRAISE, ...THINK on these things...

IOW ---  What is TRUE is also JUST, is also PURE, is also LOVELY, and is of GOOD REPORT... which also contain VIRTUE and PRAISE...

What GOOD REPORT, VIRTUE, PRAISE, LOVELINESS, PURITY, JUSTICE and TRUTH is contained in CONDEMNATION?

Not much.  

...willieH  

[Shadow]

Where did you get the idea that we didn't?  Making presumptions can only lead us to incorrect conclusions...conclusions that can hinder our spiritual growth and joy.  I have no idea if our souls preceded birth but I see nothing Biblically that says they didn't.  It's mere speculation...much like the idea that our soul was created when we entered our mother's womb. There are too many unknowns to take into account to ever put God on trial.  We all start from a place of ignorance then have the audacity to judge God.  Listen, I'm speaking to myself as well.  I have been guilty of the exact same thing.  All it brought me was grief.  I lean not on my own understanding and rely on relationship.  My relationship with God tells me all I need to know about his nature.

But you are just as presumptuous by saying that UR isn't biblical, I know you are trying so hard to find a loophole that deflects the blame solely onto us, you seem to think that it's unfair that God should force people to love him, when he KNEW what the outcome would be, I think it's hypocritical to imply that God can't change a persons heart, yet come up with the idea that we had any choice as to being born

As for your last sentence.  I understand you are hurting.  I get it.  But, to take what one group of people think about the nature of God (eternal torturists) and use that to judge God and punish yourself is short sighted at best.  How's it working for you?

I've got to give you credit, at least you have some empathy and understanding which is a quality most christians don't possess at all, to be honest my life is a nightmare but I can't just change my feelings like one turns on and off a tap, you have no idea the last 2 and a half years have been the worst of my entire life, and I've experienced the pain of loneliness, being an outcast, physical and mental abuse etc, I also suffer from GAD and OCD (which is nothing compared to what I feel now), I'm nearly 43 years old and for at least 33 of those years I've wished I'd never been born, that's also a reason I've never had children, I couldn't bear to bring another person into this world that feels the same way I do

FWIW, If I became convinced of an all loving God, I'd embrace him with open arms, but the evidence indicates otherwise, the way I see it is that we have no intrinsic value whatsoever his followers make sure that we get THIS MESSAGE, that we are scum worthy of damnation, if that's the way it is I can live with annihilation as an alternative - because at least one day I'll be no more because there will be peace

The thing is there are so many interpretations, How am I supposed to know which one is right

[shawn]

Where did you get the idea that we didn't?  Making presumptions can only lead us to incorrect conclusions...conclusions that can hinder our spiritual growth and joy.  I have no idea if our souls preceded birth but I see nothing Biblically that says they didn't.  It's mere speculation...much like the idea that our soul was created when we entered our mother's womb. There are too many unknowns to take into account to ever put God on trial.  We all start from a place of ignorance then have the audacity to judge God.  Listen, I'm speaking to myself as well.  I have been guilty of the exact same thing.  All it brought me was grief.  I lean not on my own understanding and rely on relationship.  My relationship with God tells me all I need to know about his nature.

But you are just as presumptuous by saying that UR isn't biblical, I know you are trying so hard to find a loophole that deflects the blame solely onto us, you seem to think that it's unfair that God should force people to love him, when he KNEW what the outcome would be, I think it's hypocritical to imply that God can't change a persons heart, yet come up with the idea that we had any choice as to being born

As for your last sentence.  I understand you are hurting.  I get it.  But, to take what one group of people think about the nature of God (eternal torturists) and use that to judge God and punish yourself is short sighted at best.  How's it working for you?

I've got to give you credit, at least you have some empathy and understanding which is a quality most christians don't possess at all, to be honest my life is a nightmare but I can't just change my feelings like one turns on and off a tap, you have no idea the last 2 and a half years have been the worst of my entire life, and I've experienced the pain of loneliness, being an outcast, physical and mental abuse etc, I also suffer from GAD and OCD (which is nothing compared to what I feel now), I'm nearly 43 years old and for at least 33 of those years I've wished I'd never been born, that's also a reason I've never had children, I couldn't bear to bring another person into this world that feels the same way I do

FWIW, If I became convinced of an all loving God, I'd embrace him with open arms, but the evidence indicates otherwise, the way I see it is that we have no intrinsic value whatsoever his followers make sure that we get THIS MESSAGE, that we are scum worthy of damnation, if that's the way it is I can live with annihilation as an alternative - because at least one day I'll be no more because there will be peace

The thing is there are so many interpretations, How am I supposed to know which one is right

You have the wrong guy.  I don't know how God works out his judgement.  I believe there is stronger Biblical evidence for ED but I admit pure and utter ignorance on the subject.  I have no answers other than I trust God.  There are also alot of opinions on free will that I'm not sure about either.  I see the side of both arguments.  If you think I'm dogmatic about any of this then you have me pegged wrong.  I trust God even though I don't understand. 

As for coming up with the idea that we existed before we were born...well you are not getting what I am saying...not at all.  You have misrepresented my stances.  I was saying that we start from a place of ignorance about all of this including the working of the universe.  It was a point that the Bible is silent on many things including how our souls came about.  From a place of ignorance we choose to judge God?  I believe that to be short sighted at best.  It's certainly stealing joy of relationship from you.  I know it did with me as well.

As for my empathy and understanding that too is a gift of God that came through great pain.  I know mental abuse.  I know GAD and panic disorder personally.  My mother is bipolar and most of my family members are alcoholics.  I have been sober 3 years this August.  I am looking to start a fellowship in addiction medicine shortly because I truly do care about the "least of these".  No, I don't know what you have been through.  I don't doubt you suffer from grave mental/spiritual torture.  And no you can't just turn it off.  The OCD isn't helping that at all.  My heart truly goes out to you.  I wish I had the answers you are looking for but I don't.  I can only tell you what I believe and what I would do if I was in your situation.

Do I believe you need more help than the average joe?  Probably.  Do, I believe you can pray away your anguish?  Possibly but it didn't fully work for me.  Prayer and church are very helpful but for me it wasn't enough.  I will say this though...if you are going through all of this without a drink or a drug you are stronger than I was.  But, if that is an issue for you...start there.  AA was a huge help for me.  It also helped me think outside the box for the first time in my life about God.  If that's not a problem for you...I think you need one on one Christian counseling and some sort of group therapy.  I think you need someone well versed in OCD desensitization, PTSD (which I believe you may suffer from), and spiritual trauma.  You need the diseases controlled before you will be able to think about God clearly.  You will need the trauma addressed before you can have relationship with God in a full way.

Take home message...you can't do this by yourself.  I believe you know that.  That's why you are here.  If you ever need resources please feel free to PM me.  I want to be of help.

[Shadow]

I'm not going to argue anymore

I've come to the conclusion that I've never been a true christian ever, I've just had a memory of a few years ago when I attended a church meeting

The person giving the message said - I'm sure most of us know the Lord even although there were only about 6 people present - thereby implying that that was someone there not truly saved

When I looked around the room, I immediately thought that I must be the person who was not saved as I couldn't see anyone else being the person he was referring to

As for christian councillors, been there done that, over 2 years ago, during the councilling session I was told that they spread the gospel because they don't know who God has chosen to save, that was very telling as it told me that they are dishonest in their presentation of the gospel, needless to say, I have not and will not ever set foot in a traditionalist christian church again unless it's a funeral or something

The problem is that if I find out I've been lied to especially about something this important, I find it very hard to believe things blindly

I don't care if you pinch something from me, or if you diddle me out of money, that I can overlook, but for a church to proclaim that God loves everyone (but in reality they don't believe it) shows a total lack of morality/dishonesty and shows that they are nothing more than opportunistic liars whose only interest is in the amount of money that will line the collection place, because if they had the guts to preach what they truly believed then their churches would be emptier faster than you can say Jack Robinson

What Willie H posted makes sense, it's obviously not my time yet, I don't think it's fair to blame me for something I have no control over, I tried to be a christian, I wanted to be a christian, but it won't happen until God lets it happen

That doesn't mean I have the license to live an immoral lifestyle and just do whatever I please, unlike what many tradtionalist christians claim, morality isn't just limited the christianity itself

[WhiteWings]

Don't force anything Shadow. Usually that has no or adverse effects.
You made it from ET to ED; that's a bigger step than most can make. Now just stay away from the ET forums and just hang around here. If only for a bit of reading and/or a little post now and then in the humor section. Just be like your avatar. Just relax and observe 

One question for Shadow. A month ago you returned after a long absence with post about a book you enjoyed.
You no longer believe in the book?

[WhiteWings]

I tried to be a christian, I wanted to be a christian, but it won't happen until God lets it happen

Well.... I think there are very few true Christians. Most/all have flaws.
If I had to summarize Christianity in two lines I would say:
a] Believe in Father and Son.
b] Love is the greatest commandment of all.

You seem to be a bit weak on point a. Or at leasr lost trust in Them.
Others would you call Christians are stronger on point a.

But if I read a typical ET post I fear they may be strong on "point a" (OR scared into a)
But usually weak on point b. They mostly pretent to love. At least that's my impression.

From your previous posts I remember that part of you religious crisis is because you can't accept certain people will be tortured forever.
I think that strongly points towards "point b"
From where I stand you you are more Christian than many that feel  exalted because they are privileged to watch the torture.
Prove an Approve

[shawn]

I'm not going to argue anymore

I've come to the conclusion that I've never been a true christian ever, I've just had a memory of a few years ago when I attended a church meeting

The person giving the message said - I'm sure most of us know the Lord even although there were only about 6 people present - thereby implying that that was someone there not truly saved

When I looked around the room, I immediately thought that I must be the person who was not saved as I couldn't see anyone else being the person he was referring to

As for christian councillors, been there done that, over 2 years ago, during the councilling session I was told that they spread the gospel because they don't know who God has chosen to save, that was very telling as it told me that they are dishonest in their presentation of the gospel, needless to say, I have not and will not ever set foot in a traditionalist christian church again unless it's a funeral or something

The problem is that if I find out I've been lied to especially about something this important, I find it very hard to believe things blindly

I don't care if you pinch something from me, or if you diddle me out of money, that I can overlook, but for a church to proclaim that God loves everyone (but in reality they don't believe it) shows a total lack of morality/dishonesty and shows that they are nothing more than opportunistic liars whose only interest is in the amount of money that will line the collection place, because if they had the guts to preach what they truly believed then their churches would be emptier faster than you can say Jack Robinson

What Willie H posted makes sense, it's obviously not my time yet, I don't think it's fair to blame me for something I have no control over, I tried to be a christian, I wanted to be a christian, but it won't happen until God lets it happen

That doesn't mean I have the license to live an immoral lifestyle and just do whatever I please, unlike what many tradtionalist christians claim, morality isn't just limited the christianity itself

So, basically you feel betrayed.  I doubt anyone here will argue with that.  I would imagine many of us here feel betrayed.  Do they understand how much mental torture they put people through with their interpretation of scripture?  It's bothered me deeply since I was very young.

With that said, when has the religious majority ever been right?  Man can twist anything of God into self serving purposes.  But, I realize it doesn't make God any less God.  I am growing more and more comfortable being in the religious minority with my views on scripture.

[Cardinal]

  Amen Shawn....FEW there be that find it. If something is mainstream, I've found it's just about a given, that it's been distorted and corrupted by the carnal minds of men. Blessings...