Author Topic: pretty convincing argument against UR  (Read 4332 times)

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Offline Universalist Catholic

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Re: pretty convincing argument against UR
« Reply #25 on: June 26, 2010, 06:48:30 AM »
Ive seen that argument, but if I have to say, this person is only seeing the scriptures through the lens of an orthodox sanctioned view. 

The bible is not necessarily clear about many things, like on the fate of our pets after death, whether or not holidays are forbidden, how the Judgments are done, whether having religious decorations is idol worship, whether we go to heaven or live on a paradise earth, the extent of free will.

However Universal Salvation is a very clear bible teaching, but so are reforming judgments.

"If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men." 1 Corinthians 15:19

Offline Nathan

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Re: pretty convincing argument against UR
« Reply #26 on: June 26, 2010, 05:50:46 PM »
Jabcat, you remind me of an incident that I experienced several years ago that became a key role in mending relationships between my family members, namely, my sister and my Dad.  She left home as soon as she turned 18 and never looked back.  She's much like my Dad in the way that they both are very strongly opinionated in their beliefs.  The problem was, their beliefs didn't entirely match up so much.

So, as a result, over the course of time, there was never any healing, only abused opportunities to reunite.  By abused I mean, whenever there was a visit, instead of just being family, it would always turn into an attempt to bring the other into submission and end up in another big fight.  This went on many years.  Then one year, my sister was making plans to visit all of us for a couple weeks.  but this time, something happened.

I had just had my first earth shattering experience with the Father and my wife and I were very much on fire with what God was doing in us and in our church.  We lived in this house for two years.  Along one side of our house was a sidewalk that went from the front porch to the back yard.  At the gate of our chainlink fence, the sidewalk stopped.  My wife had always wondered why they didn't just run the sidewalk on through the gate and to the back entrance of the house.  She always wanted one because when it rained, with no sidewalk meant you had to walk in the mud or wet grass.

So that year I decided I was going to pour a little sidewalk of my own . . .never did anything of this nature before, but how hard could it be .. right?  My first task was to dig out the sod.  So I got a shovel and stabbed the ground with it . . .about two inches down, I hit a rock .. . "What a cooincidence!"  I thought.  So I took a couple steps over and did it again .. .and hit another rock again . .. I did this about 4 times and every time I would hit a rock.  I was so perplexed at this.  Our yard was not that rocky.  So I changed directives just a bit. 

Instead of digging down, I started scraping across.  The rock I hit was a flat one . . .so I scraped the sod away and found it was fitted up against another.  After an hour or so of scraping . .. to my amazement, I had uncovered quite a treasure.  Someone had laid a hand-made, cobblestone sidewalk down that went from our back gate to our back entrance to the house.  And then they outlined the edges with brick-work.  It was beautiful and way more articulate than what I had planned for it.

We loved it and were in awe that we'd lived there for two years and didn't have a clue it was there.  We so badly wanted something there, and had something there, but we didn't "know" it was there.

When my sister came, we had made reservations at our favorite camp ground for a camping trip.  All of the family came out and it was around the campfire the the Lord spoke to me to share with them about the sidewalk because he was going to heal my family that night.  So I took the shovel and the head of the garden hose .. .the only two tools needed to uncover the sidewalk. 

The shovel represented His Word, the garden hose head represented the Spirit.  Through the Word, our earth was broken, through the water of the spirit, the dirt was removed.  God revealed to us that night that there was never a broken relationship.  Just as there was always a walkway provided to get us from our back gate to our back entrance, there has always been a walk way between my sister and my Dad.  The problem wasn't that it wasn't there, the problem was, we let things of our earth cover it up so it was no longer visible.

Just as our intent for that camping trip wasn't to heal our family, neither were my intentions of digging up the sod to expose the sidewalk.  I was just going to make my own.  We were just going camping . . but God put it in us to do something and our minds assumed it meant "this" when all the while, God's purpose was to do "that".  That night at the camp site, for the first time in 20 years, my family broke down and embraced each other as all of the scars melted away.  Since that day, my family has been the family we always desired to be when it came to being a whole family. 

Truth is "always there".  The cold heart of man may have covered it up for hundreds of years, initiating the dark ages, but Truth was there.  It lied just beneath the surface of mankind's beliefs, just waiting for someone to stumble across it.  And now, I believe all the sod is being removed and man is seeing for the first time, something that's been there for thousands of years. 

Jesus didn't die to give man an option to go to heaven.  Jesus gave us his resurrection so that in his resurrection, we could see His truth.  When man knows the truth, truth will set him free.  It's not about choosing heaven or hell, it's about seeing the truth and being set free in it.

Offline eaglesway

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Re: pretty convincing argument against UR
« Reply #27 on: July 17, 2010, 03:48:33 AM »
The "all things" in Colossians ch 1 is defined as evrything God created through Christ, everything over which Christ reigns, everything in earth and in heaven. We can see in John chapter one and Hebrews chapter one that "all things" have come into being through Him. In Revelations 21:5 we see that He "is making ALL THINGS NEW". In Ephesians 1:9,10 we see that the mystery of the will of God is revealed in the "summing up of all things in Christ"....whether things in heaven or on earth, whether visible or invisible, whether thrones or principalities. Finally we see in Phillipians 2:10 that every knee shall bow whether on earth, in heaven or under the earth and every tongue confess His Lordship to the glory of the Father. Finally in Revelations 5:13 we see this glorious promise fulfilled through the eyes of the prophet.....

Rev 5:13  And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Rev 21:5  And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

The scriptures, when taken in context, reveal the ultimate destiny of "all things" is to be summed up in Jesus in a glorious harmony where God the Father will be "ALL IN ALL"(1 Corinthians 15:22-28)

 He created "all things" and He is redeeming "all things"....

For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all. Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, OR WHO BECAME HIS COUNSELOR? Or WHO HAS FIRST GIVEN TO HIM THAT IT MIGHT BE PAID BACK TO HIM AGAIN? For from Him and through Him and to Him are ALL THINGS. To Him be the glory forever. Amen. (Rom 11:32-36)

Peace, Love and Grace to you from God our Father and Jesus our Lord, John
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood.

Offline Cardinal

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Re: pretty convincing argument against UR
« Reply #28 on: July 17, 2010, 04:28:51 AM »
 :cloud9:  :thumbsup:
"I would rather train twenty men to pray, than a thousand to preach; A minister's highest mission ought to be to teach his people to pray." -H. MacGregor

Offline micah7:9

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Re: pretty convincing argument against UR
« Reply #29 on: July 17, 2010, 06:14:36 AM »
I find nothing in the artical that is worth the time refuting, except in this little patch of weed work.
"Obviously, those outside of Christ, who have rejected Him, are not included in the word "all" in this verse. Notice that the verse says, "things in earth and in heaven," not things in hell, that God will reconcile. The truth is that He will reconcile "all things in Christ" by restoring this earth and bringing things into order during the millennium, after the wicked are removed."
"Obviously, those outside of Christ.." did they miss verse 16 in Col. and the "ALLs"?
They also need to find the word "until" in Acts. 3:21 "..until the times of restoration of all things" And who ever wrote that essay still has the Dante concept of hell, so that is just plain humorus. I continue to ask the question, why are the "good" people of the christian belief so intent on having somebody to be tortured in a burning fire while they live in a trouble free place? Who inspired such a vendetta? my :2c:
Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.

Offline thinktank

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Re: pretty convincing argument against UR
« Reply #30 on: July 17, 2010, 08:43:19 PM »
people of the christian belief so intent on having somebody to be tortured in a burning fire while they live in a trouble free place? Who inspired such a vendetta?

The devil did, what better way to hinder the growth of the church, also allows ministers to come in to make merchandise of the people by using fear tactics. It limits spiritual growth by believing that our maker and the most powerful entity in the universe, is capable of such things. Also what better way to make people hate their local pastor, despite all the great things the pastor does for the community people thinks he/she's evil because they have been taught the ET doctrine all their life and preaches it. Today ET preachers are being increasingly hated and I feel sorry for them, for not all are wolves in sheep clothing.
But I hope that God will send a batism of fire and end this doctrine, it'll be a tough and sad day for the preachers involved, but ultimately it would be for the best.