Author Topic: Romans 5:18-19...what did I miss?  (Read 2732 times)

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Offline shawn

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Romans 5:18-19...what did I miss?
« on: October 09, 2011, 11:09:01 PM »
Recently someone close to me used these verses to suggest that not everyone is saved.  I responded with the following email.  What did I miss?

Assuming the change in wording is because Paul is excluding presents an interesting problem.  Paul states that ALL men were under condemnation, then in the next set of verses states that many were made sinners..  Is Paul saying that all were under condemnation, yet not everyone was a sinner?  That can't be...because in Romans 3:23 Paul wrote this...
 
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. 
 
So, we can reason that the change in wording isn't to exclude.  If so, Paul would be contradicting himself.  Let me ask you a question, can these two sentences mean the same thing?
 
The whole world was celebrating the new year.
The many peoples of the world were celebrating the new year.
 
Yes, they can and often do.  And that is how  I look at Romans 5:18-19.  Through Adam's sin all men were condemned and made into slaves to sin, by no choice of their own.  This was Adam's doing.  And, by the righteousness of Jesus Christ and His sacrifice on the Cross a free gift came to the world, given to the entire world, and eventually everyone (all, the many) shall be made righteous.  This is Christ's doing...his free gift to us all.  Jesus' sacrifice on the Cross was just as effective at saving men as Adam's was condemning them.
 
Also, I don't think the focus on the word gift was the need for it to be received, and something done with the gift.  I believe the focus on the word gift is the fact that Paul was stating salvation is a pure gift...not something we have or could/can earn.  To read anything more into that word is likely being shaded by previous teachings on the subject.  It is very difficult to clear our minds and hearts of old teachings in order to get a fresh look at the Holy Scriptures.
 

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: Romans 5:18-19...what did I miss?
« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2011, 12:50:20 AM »
Shawn, this is a tricky one...

Variation #1
Verse 18 is simple. All are made rightous. Because the Bible doesn't contradict the many in verse 19 simply means all.

Variation #2
Verse 18 claims all people were made sinners. Jesus wasn't a sinner. So all is not 100%. It's believers only
Verse 19 just says there are many believers.

Variation #3
Both verses define groups. The groups don't change within the verse. So if all a doomed all are saved. If some are doomed then some are saved. Those that were not doomed don't need to be saved.

Knoch's commentary.
18 The parallel here is perfect. Adam's one offense is counteracted by Christ's one just award. The act of Adam actually affects all mankind. So Christ's work, eventually, must also actually justify all mankind. This cannot be during the eons, hence will not be fully accomplished until after the eons are past, when all are made alive in Christ (1Cor 15:22). If Adam's offense only gave each one an opportunity to sin, so that some become sinners and others not, then we might say that Christ's work brings justification to all subject to their acceptance. But we must acknowledge that man has no choice in becoming a sinner, thus also will it be through the work of Christ. Both are actual and universal.

19 The contrast here is between one and many, not between the many and the all of the previous statement. The many here are the all of verse eighteen.


The verses are about contrast. One person has a negative impact on many. But one person also has a positive impact on many.
Because of it's clear/widely accepted that Adam sinned and automatically everyone else was doomed, it's also reaonbly to assume the contrast implied here is that because of Jesus' sinlessness automatically every is saved.

The KJV translation doesn't seem accurate to me. First a few different translations:
18 Hence then, as through one fault, [the sentence was] unto all men unto condemnation, so, also, through one recovery of righteousness, [the decree of favour] is unto all men for righteous acquittal unto life;
18 So, then, as through one offence to all men it is to condemnation, so also through one declaration of `Righteous' it is to all men to justification of life;
18 So then, as through an offense of one man was for condemnation for all men, so also through a righteousness of one man was for justification of life for all men.
18 So then as through one trespass the judgment came unto all men to condemnation; even so through one act of righteousness the free gift came unto all men to justification of life.
18 So then, as the effect of one act of wrongdoing was that punishment came on all men, even so the effect of one act of righteousness was righteousness of life for all men.
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men to justification of life.
18 Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.
18 Therefore, just as through the offense of one, all men fell under condemnation, so also through the justice of one, all men fall under justification unto life.
18 so then as it was by one offence towards all men to condemnation, so by one righteousness towards all men for justification of life.
18 Therefore, as by the offence of one, unto all men to condemnation; so also by the justice of one, unto all men to justification of life.
18 Thus as through one downfall all humanity is unto condemnation; even thus through one justification all humanity is unto justification of life.
18 Therefore as by the offence of through one judgment came upon downfall to all men humanity is to condemnation; even so thus by the righteousness of through one the free gift justification came upon all men to all humanity is unto justification of life.
18 So then as through one trespass the judgment came unto all men to condemnation; even so through one act of righteousness the free gift came unto all men to justification of life.
18 So then as through one trespass, all men were condemned; even so through one act of righteousness, all men were justified to life.
18 Therefore, as by the offense of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
18 Therefore, in the same manner that by the iniquity of one [guilt came] upon all men unto condemnation, even so by the righteousness of one, [grace came] upon all men unto justification of life.
18 Consequently, just as condemnation for all people came through one transgression, so too through the one righteous act came righteousness leading to life for all people.
18 So then as through one trespass, all men were condemned; even so through one act of righteousness, all men were justified to life.
18 So then as through one trespass, all men were condemned; even so through one act of righteousness, all men were justified to life.
18 As then through one trespass all men have come under condemnation, so through one act of righteousness all obtain the gift of righteousness unto life.
18 The result of one trespass was condemnation for all men. The result of righteousness was justification acquittal, which brings life for all men.
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men to justification of life.
18 Therefore as by the fall of one for all men to condemnation; so also by the justification of one for all men to justification of life.
18 So then as through one trespass, all men were condemned; even so through one act of righteousness, all men were justified to life.
18 Therefore, as by the offense of one, judgment came upon all men to condemnation, even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men to justification of life.


Many translations show that life/justification was declared/forced upon.
That aligns perfectly with the following verse: Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...
God wasn't begging for someone to accept it. He simply declared it. Even, especially, on the ungodly. If verse 5 declared ungodly rightous it would be silly to assume verses 18 and 19 are about believers only.

The Greek in verse requires a lot of 'adding'  to translate it to English.

Rom 5 [KJVCNT]
18 Therefore as by the offense of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

The red words are both translated from the same Greek word.
εἰς
eis
Thayer Definition:
1) into, unto, to, towards, for, among
Part of Speech: preposition
A Related Word by Thayer's/Strong's Number: a primary preposition
Citing in TDNT: 2:420, 211



My  :2c: conclusion.
Whatever the number of doomed people, those very same doomed people are made/declared rightous. No conditions of any kind. Love your enemy.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline shawn

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Re: Romans 5:18-19...what did I miss?
« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2011, 01:38:50 AM »
I appreciate your input...good stuff.

Offline shawn

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Re: Romans 5:18-19...what did I miss?
« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2011, 10:25:26 PM »
Any other opinions?

Offline Molly

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Re: Romans 5:18-19...what did I miss?
« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2011, 10:36:46 PM »
Paul is just repeating himself using a literary device.   For as by one...all, so by one...all.   For as by one, the many...so by one, the many.

The many=all.  He's just being 'poetic' while at the same time using parellelism to clarify.

Did it work?  It just seems to confuse people, even the translators.  But Paul is saying the same thing twice, in two different ways.


18 One man's sin brought guilt to all people. So also one right act made all people right with God. And all who are right with God will live. 19 Many people were made sinners because one man did not obey. But one man did obey. That is why many people will be made right with God. [Rom 5]


I think the real problem is nobody can believe it. lol

Offline shawn

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Re: Romans 5:18-19...what did I miss?
« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2011, 10:58:13 PM »
Paul is just repeating himself using a literary device.   For as by one...all, so by one...all.   For as by one, the many...so by one, the many.

The many=all.  He's just being 'poetic' while at the same time using parellelism to clarify.

Did it work?  It just seems to confuse people, even the translators.  But Paul is saying the same thing twice, in two different ways.


18 One man's sin brought guilt to all people. So also one right act made all people right with God. And all who are right with God will live. 19 Many people were made sinners because one man did not obey. But one man did obey. That is why many people will be made right with God. [Rom 5]

I think the real problem is nobody can believe it. lol

And this is how I interpret the passage.  I didn't know if there was anything beyond that I missed with these verses.

« Last Edit: October 11, 2011, 05:11:00 PM by shawn »

PaoloNuevo

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Re: Romans 5:18-19...what did I miss?
« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2011, 01:19:40 PM »
My pseudo UR friend or half UR oriented friend believes that "all" who die in Adam literally means all... but "all" who are given justification of life is restrictive and simply means all races and all nations and NOT everyone...

But I think the best expose in this is found in Thomas Talbott's Inescapable Love of God. The Chapter on "The Universalism of St. Paul."

Offline CHB

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Re: Romans 5:18-19...what did I miss?
« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2011, 08:31:07 PM »
(Rom. 5:17-19) For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ. Therefore as  by the offence of one {ADAM} judgment came upon ALL MEN TO CONDEMNATION;...{even Jesus, he was crucified}...even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon ALL MEN UNTO JUSTIFICATION OF LIFE. {even Jesus}

For as by one man's disobedience {ADAM} many were made sinners,...{Jesus wasn't made a sinner}... so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous...{Jesus wasn't made righteous}. This is why it says "many" Jesus is excluded here.

My  :2c:

CHB

Offline eaglesway

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Re: Romans 5:18-19...what did I miss?
« Reply #8 on: October 27, 2011, 09:04:22 PM »
Did Paul mean ALL when he said ALL. Does God mean ALL when He says ALL? If not, why do we call it the Word of God?

]And He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.
(Col 1:15-20)


Paul doesnt contradict himself or the word is not the Word and we can believe none of it. If the all being reconciled in Colossians means: all that he created, all that is visible and invisible, all things that he is before and all things that he holds together with all things over which he is pre-eminent-Then most certainly it must be ALL; THE ENTIRETY OF THE COSMOS AND EVERY BEING WITHIN IT.

 In all wisdom and insight He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth.
(Eph 1:8-10)

This summing up of ALL THINGS IN HEAVEN AND EARTH is the mystery of the gospel, according to Paul.

For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all. Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, OR WHO BECAME HIS COUNSELOR? Or WHO HAS FIRST GIVEN TO HIM THAT IT MIGHT BE PAID BACK TO HIM AGAIN? For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.
(Rom 11:32-36)

Perhaps someone should counsel God.......Perhaps someone should say WE THE RIGHTEOUS DEMAND THAT YOU NOT SAVE ALL! But He changes not. He has exalted His word above all His name. He will be true to Himself and mercy will triumph over judgment for ALL, as He becomes ALL IN ALL.

For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death. For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.
(1Co 15:22-28)

God is subjecting all things to Christ so that HE WILL BE ALL IN ALL- Not so that most can be annihilated or dwell in torment forever.

Yes, when every enemy has been subjected, having passed through the lake of fire, having been penetrated by the eyes that are as flames of fire, having suffered in the presence of our God, who is a consuming fire, until all darkness is brought to light( and as Paul says, all that is brought to the light becomes light), Jesus will return ALL THINGS, INCLUDING THE NOW SUBJECTED ENEMIES, to the Father. YES- after EVERY KNEE has bowed and EVERY TONGUE CONFESSED that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of the Father (Phil 2:10), THE WHOLE CREATION HAS BEEN SET FREE INTO THE GLORIOUS LIBERTY OF THE CHILDREN OF GOD(Ro 8:19-23)- the freedom of the love of God, for God is love and He will be ALL IN ALL.


Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice, "Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing." And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever." And the four living creatures kept saying, "Amen." And the elders fell down and worshiped.
(Rev 5:11-14)


"Behold I Am Making ALL THINGS NEW"





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Offline Ross

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Re: Romans 5:18-19...what did I miss?
« Reply #9 on: October 28, 2011, 04:53:54 PM »
Amen!!

His love is exceeds our limited uinderstanding in our present tense.

Let us boast in the hope of the glory of God. [ Rom 5;2]
Fellow brother in Christ