25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS

[jabcat]

Just a quick one here - I'm sure some will add more indepth.

I think of the scriptures about the fullness of times, all things above and on earth being reconciled.  Also, the prodigal son, and how it was mostly about the (F)father - his love, long-suffering, acceptance, willingess to forgive and take back in....   

There'll be more...

[Theo Book]

willieH: Hi Theo...

I'm not Paul (obviously!)... but I would like to give you something to think about bro...

Paul, I have been following the posts lately instead of being the posts, because I am perplexed by some of what I am reading. Please indicate if I am misapplying what has been said. One post seems to me to indicate that if I sin it is God's will that I have sinned. Have I misunderstood?

How can something be IN the Creation of God, and NOT be forthcoming OF HIS WILL?

Well, that is the issue isn't it? You say it is God's will that I sin. I deny that. It is not God's will that any man should perish, but that all come to repentance.[II Pet 3:9]  It is no longer an issue with me as to the eternallity of the event, but the meaning of the term itself. What is "destroy" if it is only a temporary thing?

I have resolved "eternal" as mistranslation, because I already understood that application in the old covenant, just never considered it in the new. For that teaching, I thank those who have contributed to this thread.

The only issue I have remaining is the meaning and application of the punishment of those who choose to disobey and demean God himself. I am not speaking here of ignorance, nor of temporary insanity, but of planned malicious hatred toward God.

To assign such means that ..."CLAY" generates the shape it becomes (is becoming) via its own propensity!  As an observer of nature, ...what "CLAY" has ever been witnessed "shaping itself" (in a good, bad, ugly or beautiful "manner")?

Obviously you have never spent any time in a glass-blowers establishment, nor yet a clayworkers factory. There are many instances of works that go wrong in the makiing, not according to the intent of the designer. It all has to do with time and circumstance, design and design flaws incorporated in new patterns. Some work, some do not. And even some will work and some not within the parameters of a new pattern. Time and circumstance happens to them all.

Watch and see how it is the clay disobeys God's will. AND it  is only AFTER the clay becomes evil in behaviour, that God determiones to destroy it. He did not make some pots evil and some good, he made them all and watched to see how they would turn out.  Jer 18:3 "Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels. 4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it. 5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel. 7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; 8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. 9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; 10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them."

I might volunteer that this whole "Creation" scenario is being "PROJECTED" (EXPRESSED) by GOD... to include ALL THINGS which occur IN IT -- which actively -- LIVE -- the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL...

Like it or not, this observation I offer to you, is made in COMPLETE ALIGNMENT with Eph 1:11 -- as well as is found in alignment with many other verses which speak of MAN and his "doings", as being DIRECTED by YHVH -- Rom 9:21 -- Jer 18:4 -- Prov 16:9 -- Jer 10:23 -- Prov 20:24 -- Jer 29:14

Sure, all you have to do is ignore those verses IN THE SAME CONTEXT that do not agree with your position.

Look, you say people only do what God wills. God says different. God makes his will known through his commandments.  Jer 29:23 "Because they have committed villany in Israel, and have committed adultery with their neighbours' wives, and have spoken lying words in my name, which I have not commanded them; even I know, and am a witness, saith the LORD."

When you do a word search on the word "will" you only get a part of the doctrine of scripture. Try doing a wordsearch on "would not" which means "did not will to..." or "willed to not do."

Deuteronomy 1:26 "Notwithstanding ye would not go up, but rebelled against the commandment of the LORD your God:"
 Was the "commandment of the Lord" an expression of his will? They rebelled against it. Is God of two minds? Is he trying to deceive his people? I think not.

Deuteronomy 1:43 "So I spake unto you; and ye would not hear, but rebelled against the commandment of the LORD, and went presumptuously up into the hill."

Deuteronomy 8:20 "As the nations which the LORD destroyeth before your face, so shall ye perish; because ye would not be obedient unto the voice of the LORD your God."

Isaiah 30:15 "For thus saith the Lord GOD, the Holy One of Israel; In returning and rest shall ye be saved; in quietness and in confidence shall be your strength: and ye would not."

Jeremiah 29:19 "Because they have not hearkened to my words, saith the LORD, which I sent unto them by my servants the prophets, rising up early and sending them; but ye would not hear, saith the LORD."

Mat 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!"

I firmly believe, after studying with this group, that all souls will eventually return to God in sweet rapport; I firmly disagree that God's will is always done. I do believe that his will is going to be the final authority, but I do not believe his will is being carried out daily by men. There is a great difference between his will for man's daily behaviour, and his ultimate goal of salvation. And I in no way believe it is God's will that we sin so he can bless us. "Let us do evil that good may come" is a slander against God, according to Paul, yet that is what that doctrine expresses.

Let me begin by saying that the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL which "man" has come to "know" -- Gen 3:22 -- was FIRST, ...PRIOR to this EXPRESSION (or "PROJECTION"), ...found EXCLUSIVELY within the heart of YHVH God...

Which also means that in order for OUR HEARTS to be as IS HIS... then OUR HEARTS must also contain this "KNOWLEDGE"... otherwise His heart would DIFFER from ours...

I think you are confusing the content of the heart for the container which IS the heart. David was assessed by God as "a man after my own heart" yet David certainly does not have the knowledge God possesses, in his heart.

GOD is ALL in ALL... (He does not "need" the manifestation of TIME, which is a "created" entity, in order to BE -- ANYTHING)  GOD is an UNCHANGING being -- Mal 3:6 -- which means that He never, EVER... "becomes" something that He "IS", ...NOT!

God did not create time. He created those heavenly bodies by which man measures time, but it is not the same thing. "Be" is a verb expressing activity in time. For God to "be" requires time. Time has been around as long as God has been around, for God to "be" in existence. When God told Moses, "I am the being" he made no reference to creation of time, nor did he in the beginning create time; there is no reference in all of scripture to God creating time. And he is subject to time, by his covenant relations with men. It was God who introduced feast days, sabbaths, and holy days, all related to time; Jubillee sabbath, every forty nine years + one; fiftieth year after seven cycles of seven years. It was God who explained a day as a thousand years and a thousand years as a day. God is very cognizant of the significance of time in the mind and heart of man.

Also ...He is ETERNAL which means that "how He IS", He HAS ALWAYS BEEN ---> IS ---> and ALWAYS WILL BE...

We on the other hand, as we view ourselves within this scenario, are part of a TEMPORAL setting even though we are found within HIM who IS ETERNAL -- Act 17:28 -- and which is UNCHANGING, and which is and remains, PERFECTLY UNALTERED for EVER...[/quote]

Agreed!

All that said... In HOPES to convey (and IN that process answer your question above), ...here is my observation of the Creation of GOD:

The "Creation" has ALWAYS BEEN... but VEILED to ALL... except YHVH God.

ALL that occurs in this scenario is the projection (expression) of that which is IN the Heart of YHVH...

In which case, there was no "In the beginning God created." It was all a ruse to get man to behave by sinning. Nah... don't think so.

The knowledge of EVIL is simply the "flipside" of the knowledge of GOOD... TOGETHER they are ONE KNOWLEDGE, ...both are necessary that the other be KNOWN for what the other ...IS... BOTH are FOREVER EXISTENT, ...WITHIN the Heart of YHVH God...

This "Creation scenario" is an REVELATION of that KNOWLEDGE of G & E, which has ALWAYS BEEN, IS and ALWAYS WILL BE...  IOW the Creation never "came into being" it was VEILED to ALL except YHVH (within the ETERNAL setting.)

No such scene is depicted in all of scripture. Enlighten me.

YHVH ...IS... REVEALING Himself to ALL that is IN HIM, which includes EVERYTHING living WITHIN Him, extensions OF HIM...

This "Creation scenario" will perish from ACTIVITY/practice... but the KNOWLEDGE availed BY IT... forever ...IS... and forever ...WILL BE... and forever ...WAS...

eh?  

That FINITE vision to a degree, perishes with ETERNAL REVELATION is also, the basis of ALL KNOWLEDGE...

What is the scope of "eternal revelation?" Do you mean the revelation about eternal things, or do you mean a revelation that eternally goes on?

When the "wheel" became known... those LIVING became LARGER by that knowledge.  And MANY things were left behind.  Such as CARRYING heavy objects from one place to another, or WALKING long distances... CARRYING did not disappear, neither did WALKING... however, the "dealings" with both were forever ALTERED and ENLARGED, by the REVELATION of the knowledge of the WHEEL.

EVIL as a practice shall FINITELY remain in this TEMPORAL historical document we LIVE and KNOW as TIME... within its "portion" of the KNOWLEDGE of GOD... but it's KNOWLEDGE, shall remain FOREVER as the indicator of PRAISE which is given to the GLORY -- that is known as LOVE and is named, YHVH God...

...willieH  

All you need now is to produce scripture that teaches that. I'm in listening mode. Try me.

[jabcat]

I agree with much of what you've said in your last post, and I think much of this particular piece of things is "debatable" and can get "really hot".  That's why we're careful with it here.  Even within UR believers, there is quite a bit of variance in understanding as to how God will eventually reconcile all, yet still a belief that it will happen.

By the way...I see you said you believe all will eventually be reconciled to God.  Praise the Lord!

You may not have been able/ready to hear it at the time, but awhile back I believe I said to you that I believe the evil works will be burned away, so the spirit will be saved in the day of the Lord.  God gave the spirit, and it returns to Him.  There may not be much if ANYTHING left of, say Hitler, except the spirit God gave.  That's the way I see it.  That whatever "makes it through the fire" will bow and confess IN the Holy Spirit that Jesus is Master.  Also, that however much we may struggle about the "wills" issue, that God sets the conditions for every knee to bow, and that He will ultimately get His way.  Example of the prodigal son...I would say God allowed for/set those conditions within His overall plan and will, that the prodigal, through his choices of disobedience, would end up somewhere he didn't want to be, reaping what he'd sown, and meeting his end in "destruction" so to speak.  So that he returned (actually was brought back  ) to the Father [father].

Hope that helps some...James.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Different question. o.k.
Response. No. If God does not allow something to happen, it doesn't, didn't, and won't happen. NOTHING overpowers God's rule.

Thank you for answering and bearing with me here.  I will try to help you with your request, that is why I am asking these questions.  How do you reconcile the idea that if anything that happens is because God allowed it but because he allowed it that is not saying he intended for it to happen?

Just for an example.  From our perspective if God planned creation and seen that a persons life ended up in an eternal place of torment, what would it be called other than intent if God went ahead and set that in motion?

[Theo Book]

Different question. o.k.
Response. No. If God does not allow something to happen, it doesn't, didn't, and won't happen. NOTHING overpowers God's rule.

Thank you for answering and bearing with me here.  I will try to help you with your request, that is why I am asking these questions.  How do you reconcile the idea that if anything that happens is because God allowed it but because he allowed it that is not saying he intended for it to happen?

Just for an example.  From our perspective if God planned creation and seen that a persons life ended up in an eternal place of torment, what would it be called other than intent if God went ahead and set that in motion?

It was God who inspired men to use the example of parents and children, when he expressed how it is God punishes those whom he loves. He in effect, had us testifying against ourselves, if we expressed unfairness in God for punishing us. (Of course, that would be before we knew better).

But God expressed the example of how a parent chastens his son betimes. Not because he hates him but expressly because he loves him. So also God chastens his children. But in the same way a parent will let a child go who is stubborn and set in his way, after that child reaches his majority, the parent no longer can express what he thinks in the same fashion he could when that child was under the parents jurisdiction.

THAT fact is what was expressed by God when he said that the children of Israel would perish in the desert, twenty years of age and up. Because under twenty, were under their parents law, and could not determine for themselves. After twenty years of age, they were responsible for their own decisions, and ultimately consequences of those decisions.

We can teach out child all we think we know about God, he will discover some of it is true, for himself, and will make other discoveries that we never considered, and God will bless him in his search for truth. BUT, if he loses his way for whatever reason, how can we blame God who provided us with not only every blessing, but with grace and opportunity to seek him out? It becomes our own will to love God or hate him, but God did not predetermin some to hat ehim. He predetermined that some who would not believ his son would eventually hate him, and that is what I understand to be the methodology of predetermination. "He that believeth" takes on a meaning that has consequences.

Does that make sense, or am I rambling?

[peacemaker]

"We are not predestinated to sin, that's choice; but we are predestined to holiness."

peacemaker

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Theo...

I will address this answer of yours in a few posts due to the length that shall be required...  

willieH: Hi Theo...

I'm not Paul (obviously!)... but I would like to give you something to think about bro...

Paul, I have been following the posts lately instead of being the posts, because I am perplexed by some of what I am reading. Please indicate if I am misapplying what has been said. One post seems to me to indicate that if I sin it is God's will that I have sinned. Have I misunderstood?

How can something be IN the Creation of God, and NOT be forthcoming OF HIS WILL?

Well, that is the issue isn't it? You say it is God's will that I sin. I deny that. It is not God's will that any man should perish, but that all come to repentance.[II Pet 3:9]  It is no longer an issue with me as to the eternallity of the event, but the meaning of the term itself. What is "destroy" if it is only a temporary thing?

Theo... the commonly used Greek word "DESTROY" ("perish in 2 Pet 3:9) -- is APOLLUMI, which was the condition of the LOST [apollumi/destroyed] SON... destruction IS temporary... for the issue of being LOST is an issue of DESTRUCTION when PERFECTION is considered by the observer.

The Parables of the LOST COIN, LOST SHEEP and LOST SON ...ALL... use the word APOLLUMI... in ALL cases destruction which is implied by the use of the word Apollumi is NOT PERMANENT... the COIN and SHEEP were both FOUND... (therefore NOT LOST) and the LOST SON, returned Home from destruction (therefore NOT DESTROYED nor LOST)

One who is LOST/destroyed/apollumi, is one which is OTHER than in a state of PERFECTION [which means COMPLETE]... but Scripture demonstrates parabolicly that this is NOT a permanent state.

I have resolved "eternal" as mistranslation, because I already understood that application in the old covenant, just never considered it in the new. For that teaching, I thank those who have contributed to this thread.

The only issue I have remaining is the meaning and application of the punishment of those who choose to disobey and demean God himself. I am not speaking here of ignorance, nor of temporary insanity, but of planned malicious hatred toward God.

Okay Theo... WHO "seeks after God"?  Rom 3:10-13 -- Psalm 14:1-3

If we are not "seeking" after Him, (coming to the light) OF OURSELVES... then we are, OF OURSELVES found, ...HATING the LIGHT... which is why YHVH must DRAG each one to the WORD -- John 6:44 -- (one dragged is not coming willingly)... and even then the journey is not yet complete, ...for the WORD must then, REVEAL the Father to them -- John 14:6

For coming to it causes men EXPOSURE of the actual state they are IN...

As far as "Planned malicious hatred"... it is DECLARED we shall be DESPARATELY WICKED of HEART... what else can a DESPARATELY WICKED HEART ...Plan, bro?

To assign such means that ..."CLAY" generates the shape it becomes (is becoming) via its own propensity!  As an observer of nature, ...what "CLAY" has ever been witnessed "shaping itself" (in a good, bad, ugly or beautiful "manner")?

Obviously you have never spent any time in a glass-blowers establishment, nor yet a clayworkers factory. There are many instances of works that go wrong in the makiing, not according to the intent of the designer.

Though I am not a maker of things made from CLAY, you assume incorrectly...

I have experienced working CLAY, in my education... and can testify that CLAY (of itself) is inert, inanimate, and aside from its ingredients, ...its only NATURAL trait is RESISTANCE.

Your answer, did NOT ADDRESS what I asked you... Have you EVER witnessed CLAY -- SHAPING ITSELF?    In ANY "manner"?  

Because the NATURE of "CLAY" is RESISTENT, does not mean that said RESISTENCE is emergent of an INTENT of the CLAY... It is merely NATURALLY resistant, for HE which CREATED the CLAY, also CREATED its inherent feature of RESISTANCE.  

Not of its "PLANNED MALICIOUS HATRED" of the POTTER, but of its NATURE, which was INTENDED of the POTTER which made it as well as SHAPES it.

Your reference to a "designer" in a CLAY factory is insufficient in this... for said "designer" is a mere human being who is NOT the designer (creator) OF the CLAY itself... he is only the RESHAPER of it.

I'll continue in the next post, and give you and opportunity to try to ANSWER what I asked you...

Since you seem to consider yourself an observer of CLAY... have you ever witnessed it SHAPING ITSELF?  (Btw... Please don't cite, wet clay "falling apart", for this is not of an inherent "intent", it is simply the CLAY submitting to external affecting elements or laws such as water, and/or gravity)

...willieH  

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Theo...  

Continuing:

It all has to do with time and circumstance, design and design flaws incorporated in new patterns. Some work, some do not. And even some will work and some not within the parameters of a new pattern. Time and circumstance happens to them all.

Watch and see how it is the clay disobeys God's will. AND it  is only AFTER the clay becomes evil in behaviour, that God determiones to destroy it. He did not make some pots evil and some good, he made them all and watched to see how they would turn out.  Jer 18:3 "Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels. 4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it. 5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel. 7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; 8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. 9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; 10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them."

Your attempt to avoid what is stated is shown in your own "contextual" report:

6 "AS the CLAY is in the potter's hand [which noted being MARRED in the hand of said potter]... so ARE YE --- IN MINE HAND, ...O house of ISRAEL..."

YHVH is noting an example of CLAY to the hearer... which notes that ALL of its shaping, good or bad, is done by the exampled potter, ...and in the VERY SAME WAY ["AS"] ...ALL of said SHAPING and RESHAPING of ISRAEL [God's people] is done BY the hand of the POTTER... to include the "MARRING" and the "REMAKING" of the "marred clay".

I personally do not see how you cannot see this brother Theo...  

I might volunteer that this whole "Creation" scenario is being "PROJECTED" (EXPRESSED) by GOD... to include ALL THINGS which occur IN IT -- which actively -- LIVE -- the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL...

Like it or not, this observation I offer to you, is made in COMPLETE ALIGNMENT with Eph 1:11 -- as well as is found in alignment with many other verses which speak of MAN and his "doings", as being DIRECTED by YHVH -- Rom 9:21 -- Jer 18:4 -- Prov 16:9 -- Jer 10:23 -- Prov 20:24 -- Jer 29:14

Sure, all you have to do is ignore those verses IN THE SAME CONTEXT that do not agree with your position.

In what way are they ignored Theo?

Look, you say people only do what God wills. God says different. God makes his will known through his commandments.  Jer 29:23 "Because they have committed villany in Israel, and have committed adultery with their neighbours' wives, and have spoken lying words in my name, which I have not commanded them; even I know, and am a witness, saith the LORD."

It is YOU which IGNORE that prior to this statement in Jer 29:23 -- YHVH had just PREVIOUSLY noted that it was HE that DROVE these into this state!

He did NOT command them to do these things, He COMMANDED them to do otherwise, ...however... HE DECLARED (before a breath was taken by ANY MAN --Isaiah 46:10 --  that they would DO these things AGAINST His command, and that HE would also, ...deliver them FROM these things...

He CONCLUDED men in UNBELIEF -- Rom 11:32 --  He DROVE men into CAPTIVITY...

Let me ask you a few questions Theo...

(1) Is YHVH a DELIVERER?
(2) Is this an ETERNAL designation?
(3) How can He DELIVER when there are none to DELIVER?  

Apart from ordaining men to enter into UNBELIEF, because He created "choice" in the supposedly "perfect man" He created... what happens to His eternal designation as an UNCHANGING DELIVERER, if that "choosing" was PERFECT?

How could He DELIVER and thereby BE a DELIVERER, when there is nothing and no one to DELIVER?

IMO -- Christianity utilizes FAR too much vanity in its observance of itself... thinking that IT is the chooser of ITS own destiny... (Heaven or Hell)... and that GOD is standing helplessly by as the WORLD He so (ETERNALLY) LOVES... mostly "sends itself" to "hell"...

If it is as you (and most of Christianity) believes... that THEY chose their SIN... and God never intended it to be so... This position only decreases YHVH, by reducing Him to a "tinkering" scientist that is unable to create a PERFECT entity which is PERFECT, as He is... because He gave the man "choice" and then, ...OOPS!  The whole she-bang goes down the drain!    

To conclude that YHVH who is ALMIGHTY, to be almost TOTALLY upended and confounded, by the dumb CLAY?  You are welcome to swallow this bro... I ain't buyin' it!

To teach others that EVIL wins (the MAJORITY) and GOOD loses (reclaiming only a paltry few)?  Is NOT "good news"...

When you do a word search on the word "will" you only get a part of the doctrine of scripture. Try doing a wordsearch on "would not" which means "did not will to..." or "willed to not do."

Deuteronomy 1:26 "Notwithstanding ye would not go up, but rebelled against the commandment of the LORD your God:"
 Was the "commandment of the Lord" an expression of his will? They rebelled against it. Is God of two minds? Is he trying to deceive his people? I think not.

Of course He is not... however, you fail to recognize that BOTH EVIL and GOOD are GOD's KNOWLEDGE... and as do most of Christianity, you separate this [knowledge of EVIL] from Him and from GOOD, ...UNBIBILCALLY...

Again... I remind you that if you are a true follower of YHVH... and His Son JESUS CHRIST... then you are compelled to BELIEVE... What does this verse say to YOU, Theo? --- Eph 1:11 -- does this verse DISINCLUDE Him from ...ANY "THING"?

I believe as are many, that you are cornered by your own historical theology, which finds itself imprisoned in a quandary from the very BEGINNING... in which it PURPORTS that Adam & Eve were created "PERFECT", and that they "chose" "IMPERFECTLY" -- and such is an arguement against itself.

How could something PERFECT, do something IMPERFECT?  

GOD is PERFECT according to the Scriptures... will HE make IMPERFECT "choices" in the ETERNAL setting, Theo?

Deuteronomy 1:43 "So I spake unto you; and ye would not hear, but rebelled against the commandment of the LORD, and went presumptuously up into the hill."

Deuteronomy 8:20 "As the nations which the LORD destroyeth before your face, so shall ye perish; because ye would not be obedient unto the voice of the LORD your God."

Isaiah 30:15 "For thus saith the Lord GOD, the Holy One of Israel; In returning and rest shall ye be saved; in quietness and in confidence shall be your strength: and ye would not."

Jeremiah 29:19 "Because they have not hearkened to my words, saith the LORD, which I sent unto them by my servants the prophets, rising up early and sending them; but ye would not hear, saith the LORD."

Mat 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!"

I firmly believe, after studying with this group, that all souls will eventually return to God in sweet rapport; I firmly disagree that God's will is always done.

FIRST --- I am glad of heart to hear you say that ALL SOULS will eventually return to GOD...

SECOND I find flaw in the second portion of your statement --- "Firm" as in what?  ..."in THIS moment"?  

Do you think you have nothing further to LEARN about this subject, Theo?  That you would state that -- you "firmly" disagree that the WILL of GOD is not always done?  Do you hereby note this position is UNMOVEABLE?  

Well, you have already demonstrated by the first portion of your statement, that the position you held coming here, has been enlarged to "ALL SOULS" returning to GOD...  What makes you so sure, that your second portion is "FIRMLY" not in need of the same kind of "enlargement"?

In your "FIRM" position, GOD is therefore in your eyes... "FIRMLY" ...imperfect... for He has a WILL --- which brought forth IMPERFECTION via His OWN HAND, in Creating this scenario...    

If indeed He were PERFECT (and BE IT KNOWN, that I believe that He IS), ...and IMPERFECTION were NOT part of the plan and upon the agenda of PERFECTION... then His "plan" was IMPERFECT, ...for IMPERFECTION arose within His "plan"...

And we still have Eph 1:11 to deal with...  

I'll pause here a moment, and continue later...



...willieH  

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Theo...

And more...

I do believe that his will is going to be the final authority, but I do not believe his will is being carried out daily by men. There is a great difference between his will for man's daily behaviour, and his ultimate goal of salvation. And I in no way believe it is God's will that we sin so he can bless us. "Let us do evil that good may come" is a slander against God, according to Paul, yet that is what that doctrine expresses.

I do not ever intend to slander GOD... but we cannot avoid what is said in -- Eph 1:11 -- nor can we sidestep that those THINGS which were "NOT DONE" as  DISINCLUDING ALL EVIL deeds... ALL DEEDS yet to be DONE, were DECLARED to be DONE, by YHVH to BE DONE -- Isaiah 46:10 -- without regard to their "GOOD or EVIL"...

GOD does not RECOMMEND/COMMAND we DO EVIL... but He has DECLARED that we shall... by HIS WORD... and His WORD never changes... so whatever is stated in HIS WORD, shall come to PASS...

Again, CHRIST was slain (past tense/already in place) BEFORE ...ANY MAN... needed His REDEEMING sacrifice -- Rev 13:8 --  This is a CLEAR statement that a SACRIFICE was already IN PLACE before the doings of MAN within TIME, demanded the need for it.

Let me begin by saying that the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL which "man" has come to "know" -- Gen 3:22 -- was FIRST, ...PRIOR to this EXPRESSION (or "PROJECTION"), ...found EXCLUSIVELY within the heart of YHVH God...

Which also means that in order for OUR HEARTS to be as IS HIS... then OUR HEARTS must also contain this "KNOWLEDGE"... otherwise His heart would DIFFER from ours...

I think you are confusing the content of the heart for the container which IS the heart. David was assessed by God as "a man after my own heart" yet David certainly does not have the knowledge God possesses, in his heart.

And that quote does NOT in any way try to say that DAVID had the knowledge GOD possesses... You are stretching things to accomodate your thinking bro...

The KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL is not just each individual choosing between the two... Is THAT what you think, Theo?

The KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL is the ETERNAL and COMPLETE TOTAL of ALL of BOTH... Try and swallow that one, dude!

GOD ...IS... ALL in ALL, in the ETERNAL setting.  Which means ALL of HIM is within ALL of US... We are a TEMPLE collectively... which shares the PRESENCE of YHVH God... and IN WHICH the COMPLETE KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL (in the ETERNAL setting) ...IS...

GOD is ALL in ALL... (He does not "need" the manifestation of TIME, which is a "created" entity, in order to BE -- ANYTHING)  GOD is an UNCHANGING being -- Mal 3:6 -- which means that He never, EVER... "becomes" something that He "IS", ...NOT!

God did not create time. He created those heavenly bodies by which man measures time, but it is not the same thing.

Of course it is Theo...

I beg to differ... TIME is measured by DAYS (which contain seconds, minutes and hours, each which BEGIN and END)...

TIME is also noted as having a BEGINNING... and shall have an END... Rev 10:6

TIME was created BEFORE ANY "HEAVENLY BODIES" were available to be used to measure it... Gen 1:14-19 -- The Sun, Moon and Stars (heavenly bodies) were not even created until the FOURTH DAY... which means that THREE DAYS were measured, containing EVENING and MORNING, ...WITHOUT the "heavenly bodies" available to make measurement of an EVENING or MORNING...

Not only that but CHRIST noted... are there not TWELVE HOURS [time] in a DAY? -- John 11:9 -- what are HOURS, Theo?  But a measurement of TIME... as noted BY CHRIST --  

PETER and JOHN noted that they were in the LAST "TIME" -- 1 Pet 1:20 -- 1 John 2:18

PAUL also noted -- Eph 1:10 -- of the FULLNESS of TIME... How can something which is EVER ON GOING, ever be FULL?

If TIME were as you propose, there could be NO "LAST TIME" or "TIMES"  possible... otherwise, GOD whom YOU maintain NEEDS TIME to exist... would be WITHOUT IT!  And thereby CEASE to "BE"...  

TIME is noted within SEASONS (which have beginnings and endings) as Ecclesiastes, so poetically notes -- Ecc 3:1-17

TIME was NOT, before the FIRST DAY... and shall NOT BE past the LAST DAY -- John 6:44 -- John 12:48

ETERNITY "being" on either side of this TEMPORAL PLANE.

"Be" is a verb expressing activity in time. For God to "be" requires time.

Sorry, but GOD does not "require" ANYTHING, to ...BE... He ...IS... and that He IS ...is without BEGINNING or ENDING... both of which are parameters (boundaries) of, "TIME"...

You are welcome to maintain the illusion that TIME (which you and I experience and can measure) is something that is ETERNAL... and try to use said FINITE observation to determine INFINITE essence, ...but in the end, it is as futile as trying to see HOW LONG 10 gallons of water are... or HOW HIGH the Sky is from the Earth... or HOW much LOVE can be inserted in a 10 gallon bottle... Or how many Angels can stand on the head of a pin...

Time has been around as long as God has been around, for God to "be" in existence.

How can that be, Theo?  GOD has not "been around a -- long time", for the words "AS LONG AS" implies an emergent point... a beginning.  GOD has NO BEGINNING, for He has ALWAYS BEEN...

You and I cannot comprehend what existence is without TIME, for we are imprisoned by it and within it... GOD and HIS EXISTENCE is not IN TIME, it SURROUNDS it.

I'll take another break here...  

...willieH  

[Paul Hazelwood]

but God did not predetermin some to hate him.

Does that make sense, or am I rambling?

I understand what your saying.  human analogies do not address a soveriegn God who set everything in motion.   I have two sons, but I did not create the universe and set things in motion knowing what would happen in the end.

From my perspective, I would not create a being that I could not save for any reason.

Would you?   And if a mere human would not and Gods love is unimaginably greater, can we actually see fit to rationalize creating one knowing it would suffer for eternity with no hope as Love?

I'm not arguing scripture at all yet,  because I think too many times we will squabble over decades of religion rather than matters of the heart.

So, mainly what I am getting at, is if the Character of God you know deep down matches such a thought?

[willieH]

willieH: Hi TB...  

Okay, ...I'll try and finish up here...

When God told Moses, "I am the being" he made no reference to creation of time, nor did he in the beginning create time; there is no reference in all of scripture to God creating time. And he is subject to time, by his covenant relations with men.

Disagree... MAN is subject to GOD, not the other way around... Neither is GOD subject to ANYTHING -- Including TIME

As I have already noted that CHRIST Himself broke down "DAYS" (which have not only individual beginning and end, but COLLECTIVE beginning and end) as having 12 HOURS... which is the MEASUREMENT of them... all of which have beginnings and endings...  Enough about that.  You are welcome to think whatever you like...

It was God who introduced feast days, sabbaths, and holy days, all related to time; Jubillee sabbath, every forty nine years + one; fiftieth year after seven cycles of seven years. It was God who explained a day as a thousand years and a thousand years as a day. God is very cognizant of the significance of time in the mind and heart of man.

More of the same... the mind and heart of man are TEMPORAL and have been placed in a TEMPORAL setting [time], as a vapor which appeareth for a SHORT TIME, then vanisheth AWAY... beginning & end...

That GOD has placed us in a scenario (time) which is SEPARATED from the ETERNAL, and which is IN MOTION and thereby ALL within it, including IT, is CONTINUALLY CHANGING... is evidence of its OPPOSITION to the ETERNAL... which is UNCHANGING and at PEACE... which opposes the IMMENSE quantity of TURMOIL  amidst "TIME".

TIME is the OPPOSITE of ETERNITY, but then again, you aren't buying that areya?  Don't care.

Also ...He is ETERNAL which means that "how He IS", He HAS ALWAYS BEEN ---> IS ---> and ALWAYS WILL BE...

We on the other hand, as we view ourselves within this scenario, are part of a TEMPORAL setting even though we are found within HIM who IS ETERNAL -- Act 17:28 -- and which is UNCHANGING, and which is and remains, PERFECTLY UNALTERED for EVER...

Agreed!

Well ...BLOW ME DOWN! :omg:

All that said... In HOPES to convey (and IN that process answer your question above), ...here is my observation of the Creation of GOD:

The "Creation" has ALWAYS BEEN... but VEILED to ALL... except YHVH God.

ALL that occurs in this scenario is the projection (expression) of that which is IN the Heart of YHVH...

In which case, there was no "In the beginning God created." It was all a ruse to get man to behave by sinning. Nah... don't think so.

FIRST -- "In the "BEGINNING" ...was the emergent point of ALL THINGS ...WHICH HAVE... Beginnings and endings... including TIME and ALL within its grasp...

CHRIST, who HAS NO BEGINNING or ENDING, ...IS... the Alpha and Omega of ALL THINGS which DO have them...

SECOND -- No "ruse" at all, only PURPOSE, if GOD should choose you  to SEE IT... the LIVING KNOWLEDGE of GOD, REVEALED before ALL, utilizing His CHILDREN within the LIVING realization of that REVELATION...

God did not ordain this as a method to "rehabilitate" men... He is REVEALING Himself before ALL... that He be ALL in ALL... You are just too involved in the complexities of your theology to see the simplicity of it all.

GOOD and EVIL is not about "SINNING", Theo... it is about the REVELATION of WHAT OCCURS when the COMMAND of GOD (which is HOLY, PERFECT and PURE)... is OPPOSED... and the LOSS, SORROW, PAIN and DEATH that results in the MANIFESTATION of that OPPOSITION...

The knowledge of EVIL is simply the "flipside" of the knowledge of GOOD... TOGETHER they are ONE KNOWLEDGE, ...both are necessary that the other be KNOWN for what the other ...IS... BOTH are FOREVER EXISTENT, ...WITHIN the Heart of YHVH God...

This "Creation scenario" is an REVELATION of that KNOWLEDGE of G & E, which has ALWAYS BEEN, IS and ALWAYS WILL BE...  IOW the Creation never "came into being" it was VEILED to ALL except YHVH (within the ETERNAL setting.)

No such scene is depicted in all of scripture. Enlighten me.

Do you really wish enlightenment brother?  Or was that just the smug comment of one who will ignore?

Oh but it IS... all you need to do is open the eyes of your heart, ....matter of fact an ENTIRE BOOK of the Scripture is DEDICATED to it!

It is PLAINLY and CLEARLY there... will you listen, brother Theo?  Do you "got yer ears on?"  Or will you refuse to see or hear, as did the Pharisees of old?

The REVELATION of JESUS CHRIST ...IS... the OUTWARD EXPRESSION of the WORD of GOD, which is within HIS HEART...

Here comes the part, you will likely "ignore":

ALL things that were "MADE" were "MADE" by the WORD -- Col 1:16 -- John 1:3  -- which IS an UNCHANGING entity -- Heb 13:8 -- and which manifest them by REVEALING their presence found WITHIN the WORD of GOD!  

That the WORD is UNCHANGING, means that whatever EXTENDS from IT ("made" by IT"), is also UNCHANGING... otherwise the WORD is NOT the same, yesterday, today and forever, for EXTENSIONS of IT... are CHANGEABLE.

You will likely balk at what I just said, because you believe that YOU choose your own WAY (with "free will")... and I on the other hand, KNOW that we walk a pathway which is SET BEFORE US... and NOT ONE MOMENT of that journey shall CHANGE from what the WORD DECLARED of it before a step of it was taken! -- Isaiah 46:10 -- believe what you will...

Where is your "word", Theo?  In your shoe?  Behind the garage?  On the moon? In a safe deposit box at the bank?  

Or is it IN YOUR  ?  Is your "word", TRULY YOU?   When expressed, does it contain WHO you are?  What you think?  What you like and dont like?  Of course it does! (or at least, it should)

And when YOU reveal IT, those HEARING, then become AWARE of many things that were ALWAYS there within YOU, ...just WORDS which were yet, UNSPOKEN by YOU...  

Well... GOD's WORD is found amidst HIS HEART, and the expression of HIS HEART contains ALL and more (as compared to you or I), ...concerning what "He likes and doesn't like... What He "thinks"... and WHO He truly ...IS... (which is LOVE)

ALL these were ALWAYS [forever] within the Heart of YHVH, just UNREVEALED... unexpressed until the WORD was SPOKEN from His HEART, ...REVEALING that Heart in the presence of the HEARERS...

YHVH ...IS... REVEALING Himself to ALL that is IN HIM, which includes EVERYTHING living WITHIN Him, extensions OF HIM...

This "Creation scenario" will perish from ACTIVITY/practice... but the KNOWLEDGE availed BY IT... forever ...IS... and forever ...WILL BE... and forever ...WAS...

eh?  

That FINITE vision to a degree, perishes with ETERNAL REVELATION is also, the basis of ALL KNOWLEDGE...

What is the scope of "eternal revelation?" Do you mean the revelation about eternal things, or do you mean a revelation that eternally goes on?

FIRST -- the "ETERNAL" does NOT "go-on"... it ALWAYS IS.  

You, as do many Christians, ...use FINITE terminology (a "from now-on"  ETERNITY) and expect that this defines the INFINITE... which is like the blind man, using "his eyes", endeavoring to describe the design on my shirt.

SECOND -- "ETERNAL REVELATION" is that which HAS ALWAYS BEEN, (amidst the HEART of GOD) made known... which is the KNOWLEDGE of YHVH God, ...which contains GOOD and EVIL... imparted to MAN, that the CHILDREN of GOD, be AS ...IS... He, having that KNOWLEDGE...

When the "wheel" became known... those LIVING became LARGER by that knowledge.  And MANY things were left behind.  Such as CARRYING heavy objects from one place to another, or WALKING long distances... CARRYING did not disappear, neither did WALKING... however, the "dealings" with both were forever ALTERED and ENLARGED, by the REVELATION of the knowledge of the WHEEL.

EVIL as a practice shall FINITELY remain in this TEMPORAL historical document we LIVE and KNOW as TIME... within its "portion" of the KNOWLEDGE of GOD... but it's KNOWLEDGE, shall remain FOREVER as the indicator of PRAISE which is given to the GLORY -- that is known as LOVE and is named, YHVH God...

All you need now is to produce scripture that teaches that. I'm in listening mode. Try me.

Are you really bro?  If you are, then this question has already been answered hasn't it?  I have already extensively shown the Scripture, ...Or were you not listening?  

I hope you were!  


...willieH  

[WhiteWings]

Hi Theo.
Let me start that thoughts below sometimes feel like a contradiction to me. But still it's how I understand them.

No. If God does not allow something to happen, it doesn't, didn't, and won't happen. NOTHING overpowers God's rule.

I take the liberty to summarize that as: Noting that happens on earth is against God's will.

Many things happen that are not God's will for them to happen.

That contradicts your above statement.

THAT does NOT mean God does not allow some things that are against his will.

So God has an unbendable will but still He for some reason allows that will to be temporarily overruled. Unlike earthly parents God has the power to stop every breaking of the rules but He doesn't. For me that leads to two possible conclusions:
a] God's will was overruled and He could not stop it.
b] God's will was not overruled. Everything what we see as bending/overruling etc was/is His will.

For me it's simple. Some things simply are not compatible. First state God has 100% complete control and absolutely everything is according to His will. But when things start to look bad (sinful things) we have to get God of the hook and suddenly say humankind broke Gods control. 100% control isn't 100% if has been broken a zillion times during mankinds history.

Sometimes, a parent will allow a child to touch the warm stove, to teach him/her about heat and danger, but it is not the parents will that the child be injured. It was not even the parents will that the child touch the stove, but observation demonstrates the strength of the child's will, and the parent provides for different eventuallities.

A very good example Theo. Replace a few words now. Parent=God. Stove=Sin. Touch=sinning.
God is teaching us. Teaching is giving knowledge.

God allowed Isreal to disobey his commandments, over and over again, but that did not change either the commandments nor the covenant under which the commandments came.

It did change the Israelites relation to God, in that they moved from obedient, to disobedient. They moved from receiving blessings, to receiving curses. That did not change the fact they were God's chosen people.

Were the Israelites overstepping Gods will? Or did God just allow the Israelites to touch the stove?

To me, "will" implies intent. When you say it was God's will, I read "it was God's intent... He willed it to be so." God predestined a class of people to conform to the pattern laid down by his son. He did not say "Willie, and James, and Bob etc. will be saved but John and Ed and Joe will be lost. He said "Whoever believes my son, and is baptized into his death, will receive power to become sons of God. "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:" Those who denied him, did not receive that power.

I agree will=intend. Human will is limited by zillions of human limitations. God has no such limitations.
Human: Will=I would like it if I could make it happen.
God: Will=I can state as a 100% fact it will happen to the smallest detail.

I believe I am beginning to see your point on eventual salvation for all souls, but it remains for me to resolve a couple of issues. I do not see yet, where God's enemies are allowed back into the fold. Can you help me resolve this?

I think the answer is not found in a single verse. Are there verses that state that all chances of Father's grace end at death? Are there verses that indicate the little verse list below ends at death? Usally the answer would be yes. But the Bible is a book that's about life after death. So we should see verses in that light.
 

Psalm 30:5 His anger lasts only a moment. His favor lasts a lifetime. Weeping may last for the night, but there is a song of joy in the morning.
==> This is not only for this lifetime... Malachi 3:6  "I the LORD do not change....
Isaiah 54:7 For a short time I gave you up; but with great mercies I will take you back again.
Isaiah 54:8 In a little wrath I turned away my face from thee; but with everlasting mercy will I have compassion upon thee, saith the Lord that delivers thee.
1 Corinthians 13:8  The love doth never fail.
Chronicles 16:34 Give thanks to the LORD, for he is good; his love endures forever.
Lamentations 3:31-32  For the Lord will not cast off for ever: But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies.
Micah 7:18-19 .... he does not keep his wrath for ever, because his delight is in mercy....He will again have pity on us
2 Samuel 14:14 .... But God does not take away life; instead he devises ways for the banished to be restored.

[WhiteWings]

The only issue I have remaining is the meaning and application of the punishment of those who choose to disobey and demean God himself. I am not speaking here of ignorance, nor of temporary insanity, but of planned malicious hatred toward God.

You mean people like Saul/Paul....

To assign such means that ..."CLAY" generates the shape it becomes (is becoming) via its own propensity!  As an observer of nature, ...what "CLAY" has ever been witnessed "shaping itself" (in a good, bad, ugly or beautiful "manner")?

Obviously you have never spent any time in a glass-blowers establishment, nor yet a clayworkers factory. There are many instances of works that go wrong in the makiing, not according to the intent of the designer.

Don't you think God's craftmanship is of higher standards as that of those you saw in that factory?

Watch and see how it is the clay disobeys God's will. AND it  is only AFTER the clay becomes evil in behaviour, that God determiones to destroy it. He did not make some pots evil and some good, he made them all and watched to see how they would turn out.  Jer 18:3 "Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels. 4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

I see your point Theo. The evil vessel was not trown into eternal hell. It wasn't annihilated. It was made anew. That sounds  abit URish. The only problem I have with that verse is that it seems to say Father is a potter of average skills. Lots of pots are not according to design. If we look back into history only the pot called Jesus was according to design. All others need(ed) to be remodelled. That would make Father the a worse potter in history.....

[Theo Book]

willieH: Hi Theo...

I will address this answer of yours in a few posts due to the length that shall be required...  

willieH: Hi Theo...

I'm not Paul (obviously!)... but I would like to give you something to think about bro...

Paul, I have been following the posts lately instead of being the posts, because I am perplexed by some of what I am reading. Please indicate if I am misapplying what has been said. One post seems to me to indicate that if I sin it is God's will that I have sinned. Have I misunderstood?

How can something be IN the Creation of God, and NOT be forthcoming OF HIS WILL?

Well, that is the issue isn't it? You say it is God's will that I sin. I deny that. It is not God's will that any man should perish, but that all come to repentance.[II Pet 3:9]  It is no longer an issue with me as to the eternallity of the event, but the meaning of the term itself. What is "destroy" if it is only a temporary thing?

Theo... the commonly used Greek word "DESTROY" ("perish in 2 Pet 3:9) -- is APOLLUMI, which was the condition of the LOST [apollumi/destroyed] SON... destruction IS temporary... for the issue of being LOST is an issue of DESTRUCTION when PERFECTION is considered by the observer.

The Parables of the LOST COIN, LOST SHEEP and LOST SON ...ALL... use the word APOLLUMI... in ALL cases destruction which is implied by the use of the word Apollumi is NOT PERMANENT... the COIN and SHEEP were both FOUND... (therefore NOT LOST) and the LOST SON, returned Home from destruction (therefore NOT DESTROYED nor LOST)

One who is LOST/destroyed/apollumi, is one which is OTHER than in a state of PERFECTION [which means COMPLETE]... but Scripture demonstrates parabolicly that this is NOT a permanent state.

I have resolved "eternal" as mistranslation, because I already understood that application in the old covenant, just never considered it in the new. For that teaching, I thank those who have contributed to this thread.

The only issue I have remaining is the meaning and application of the punishment of those who choose to disobey and demean God himself. I am not speaking here of ignorance, nor of temporary insanity, but of planned malicious hatred toward God.

Okay Theo... WHO "seeks after God"?  Rom 3:10-13 -- Psalm 14:1-3

If we are not "seeking" after Him, (coming to the light) OF OURSELVES... then we are, OF OURSELVES found, ...HATING the LIGHT... which is why YHVH must DRAG each one to the WORD -- John 6:44 -- (one dragged is not coming willingly)... and even then the journey is not yet complete, ...for the WORD must then, REVEAL the Father to them -- John 14:6

For coming to it causes men EXPOSURE of the actual state they are IN...

As far as "Planned malicious hatred"... it is DECLARED we shall be DESPARATELY WICKED of HEART... what else can a DESPARATELY WICKED HEART ...Plan, bro?

To assign such means that ..."CLAY" generates the shape it becomes (is becoming) via its own propensity!  As an observer of nature, ...what "CLAY" has ever been witnessed "shaping itself" (in a good, bad, ugly or beautiful "manner")?

Obviously you have never spent any time in a glass-blowers establishment, nor yet a clayworkers factory. There are many instances of works that go wrong in the makiing, not according to the intent of the designer.

Though I am not a maker of things made from CLAY, you assume incorrectly...

I have experienced working CLAY, in my education... and can testify that CLAY (of itself) is inert, inanimate, and aside from its ingredients, ...its only NATURAL trait is RESISTANCE.

Your answer, did NOT ADDRESS what I asked you... Have you EVER witnessed CLAY -- SHAPING ITSELF?    In ANY "manner"?  

Because the NATURE of "CLAY" is RESISTENT, does not mean that said RESISTENCE is emergent of an INTENT of the CLAY... It is merely NATURALLY resistant, for HE which CREATED the CLAY, also CREATED its inherent feature of RESISTANCE.  

Not of its "PLANNED MALICIOUS HATRED" of the POTTER, but of its NATURE, which was INTENDED of the POTTER which made it as well as SHAPES it.

Your reference to a "designer" in a CLAY factory is insufficient in this... for said "designer" is a mere human being who is NOT the designer (creator) OF the CLAY itself... he is only the RESHAPER of it.

I'll continue in the next post, and give you and opportunity to try to ANSWER what I asked you...

Since you seem to consider yourself an observer of CLAY... have you ever witnessed it SHAPING ITSELF?  (Btw... Please don't cite, wet clay "falling apart", for this is not of an inherent "intent", it is simply the CLAY submitting to external affecting elements or laws such as water, and/or gravity)

...willieH  

Please do not tell me what not to cite. THAT is overcontrol. If I cite an argument and you can respond, that is one thing, but for you to tell me what not to argue is pretentious.

As for witnessing clay shape itself, God himself gave you the excample in two different areas. First, in Jeremiah, which I cited for you, which applies to your question. God only decided good or evil AFTER the clay determined its use.

Look again at how GOD speaks of HIS effort as the potter: Jer 18:3 "Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels. 4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it. 5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 6 O house of Israel, cannot I DO WITH YOU as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel. 7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; 8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. 9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; 10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them." This is God's description of himself dealing with Israel as a potter deals with his clay. I DID NOT MAKE THIS UP. GOD DID. I think it will be prudent for you to make the same application God did. HE, AS a potter, forms the clay, and only AFTER determining how the clay behaves, decides how to respond to its behaviour. He does not design evil into the pot.

Second: You ask if I ever observed clay forming itself. 2 Cor 4:7 "But we have this treasure in [clay][ostracinois] earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us." ostrakinois = dative neuter plural adjective = made of baked clay, pottery. My response is YES! I have seen this mortal clay tiome and again make decisions contrary to its best interest, as family and neighbors, friends, and strangers, dete3rmined to go their own headstrong way. I had a baby sister that took her own life. I do not believe for a moment, God directed her to do that. I do not accept that it was God's will that she kill herself. She was impregnated by a Catholic priest, her councellor, and when her baby was born, he made her give it to the Catholic orphanage. She killed herself because of post partum depression, only one among other issues she had. IT WAS NOT GOD'S WILL. The earthen vessel she was did her in.

[Theo Book]

willieH: Hi Theo... 

Continuing:

It all has to do with time and circumstance, design and design flaws incorporated in new patterns. Some work, some do not. And even some will work and some not within the parameters of a new pattern. Time and circumstance happens to them all.

Watch and see how it is the clay disobeys God's will. AND it  is only AFTER the clay becomes evil in behaviour, that God determiones to destroy it. He did not make some pots evil and some good, he made them all and watched to see how they would turn out.  Jer 18:3 "Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels. 4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it. 5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel. 7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; 8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. 9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; 10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them."

Your attempt to avoid what is stated is shown in your own "contextual" report:

6 "AS the CLAY is in the potter's hand [which noted being MARRED in the hand of said potter]... so ARE YE --- IN MINE HAND, ...O house of ISRAEL..."

YHVH is noting an example of CLAY to the hearer... which notes that ALL of its shaping, good or bad, is done by the exampled potter, ...and in the VERY SAME WAY ["AS"] ...ALL of said SHAPING and RESHAPING of ISRAEL [God's people] is done BY the hand of the POTTER... to include the "MARRING" and the "REMAKING" of the "marred clay".

I personally do not see how you cannot see this brother Theo... 

Oh, I see your point quite adequately WH; I hjust do not agree with your final conclusion. You see, you are not tasked with just the final conclusion, but must properly assess all that leads to that conclusion.

Look again at what God said. I will begin with that part that leads to YOUR cdonclusion, then expand to MY conclusion, for your consideration:

THE PART THAT LEADS TO YOUR FINAL CONCLUSION: Jer 18:3 "Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels. 4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it. 5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.

I agree, God's part in designing the pots from clay seems to parallel that of the potter who designs pots. BUT, God tells of a difference, in just the next part of the context: Jer 18:7 "At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; 8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. 9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; 10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them."[/quote]

Look real close WH; God tells us at what point he determines a vessel has not turned out according to its original design. "
At what instant" is a reference to a particular popint in time at which God makes a decision based on results, not intention. He proceeds then to define the moment "IF that nation against whom I have pronounced, turn from evil..."
Do you see it WH? There is opportunity provided before God destroys, to repent. THAT tells us God did not design with intent for nations to do evil. He designed nations to exist, and only after their intent becomes evident from their activities, does he then determine to advance, or deter, their activity with destruction or blessings.

Look at it again with this in view.
Jer 18:7 "At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; 8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. 9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; 10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them."[/quote]

I'll quit for now. Too much territory has built up in some of the posts, so I will not respond to very much at a time, until some are resolved. Thank you for your input.

[Theo Book]

Just a quick one here - I'm sure some will add more indepth.

I think of the scriptures about the fullness of times, all things above and on earth being reconciled.  Also, the prodigal son, and how it was mostly about the (F)father - his love, long-suffering, acceptance, willingess to forgive and take back in....   

There'll be more...

Agreed! BUT (knew that was coming) notice the prodigal son REPENTED and returned to his Father's hous. The Father did not pursue him in any way. Did not send a servant after him with invitation, nor did he send a soldier after him with threats, nor did he send a prophet after him with warnings. He waited until the son repented, THEN blessed him with all his love.

[Theo Book]

I agree with much of what you've said in your last post, and I think much of this particular piece of things is "debatable" and can get "really hot".  That's why we're careful with it here.  Even within UR believers, there is quite a bit of variance in understanding as to how God will eventually reconcile all, yet still a belief that it will happen.

By the way...I see you said you believe all will eventually be reconciled to God.  Praise the Lord!

You may not have been able/ready to hear it at the time, but awhile back I believe I said to you that I believe the evil works will be burned away, so the spirit will be saved in the day of the Lord.  God gave the spirit, and it returns to Him.  There may not be much if ANYTHING left of, say Hitler, except the spirit God gave.  That's the way I see it.  That whatever "makes it through the fire" will bow and confess IN the Holy Spirit that Jesus is Master.  Also, that however much we may struggle about the "wills" issue, that God sets the conditions for every knee to bow, and that He will ultimately get His way.  Example of the prodigal son...I would say God allowed for/set those conditions within His overall plan and will, that the prodigal, through his choices of disobedience, would end up somewhere he didn't want to be, reaping what he'd sown, and meeting his end in "destruction" so to speak.  So that he returned (actually was brought back  ) to the Father [father].

Hope that helps some...James.

I always consider the parable of the "riotous" son to be more about the older brother than the younger.

Luke 15:11 "And he said, A certain man had two sons: 12 And the younger of them said to his father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth to me. And he divided unto them his living. 13 And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living. 14 And when he had spent all, there arose a mighty famine in that land; and he began to be in want. 15 And he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country; and he sent him into his fields to feed swine. 16 And he would fain have filled his belly with the husks that the swine did eat: and no man gave unto him. 17 And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger! 18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee, 19 And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants. 20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him. 21 And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son. 22 But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet: 23 And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry: 24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry."

So far, we have a story that presents us with a son in his youth, impatient and reckless, asking for something he had not a right to ask, his inheritance, whcih usually waits for the passing of a generation, to spend it upon his whimsical wants. Upon wasting his living, he remembers the "good ol' days" and returns(repent = a turning back) to his father's house, expressing his acceptance of his fatherr's jugment, even to the point of being considered one of the servants, rather than an heir. This is no longer a son in youth trying to gain advantage; this is a repentant son striving for a better reality than his actions have provided.

THEN comes the older brother, naturally curious and inquisitive as to the sounds emanating from his father's house. Upon being told of the return of his younger brother and his father's reaction, he became angry at the injustice of the treatment he received in comparison with the treatment his brother received:
 25 "Now his elder son was in the field: and as he came and drew nigh to the house, he heard musick and dancing. 26 And he called one of the servants, and asked what these things meant. 27 And he said unto him, Thy brother is come; and thy father hath killed the fatted calf, because he hath received him safe and sound. 28 And he was angry, and would not go in:"

His father this time, pursued the brother who was wrong. "therefore came his father out, and intreated him." Perhaps because he owed his firstborn something he did not owe his second son, I don't really know why the disparity in treatment.

I do know that the older brother began to express himself in self-righteous indignation; 29 "And he answering said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends:"

I see that the older brother then begins an attack on his sibling: 30 "But as soon as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf." The older brother assumes and then convicts without evidence, so typical of many of us who feel wronged by family affiliations.

The old man appealed to reason with his firstborn son;  31 "And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine. 32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found."

How it turned out in the end we will never know, but I live with the hope that the elder brother also repented.

[CHB]

Hi Theo,

The way I came to understand that God didn't just allow things to happen, that he planned it all is like this:

You said that "God didn't cause you to sin", in a sense that is right. Let's go back to the beginning and ask ourselves these questions.

Who created Satan/the serpent, or whatever you want to call it?
Who put the tree in the garden of Eden?
Who made law and gave it to us in the first place?  
Doesn't it say that sin is the transgression of law?
Where did this law come from?
Wasn't Adam and Eve flesh? If so, then it says the flesh cannot please God.

If God created the thing, Satan that is always tempting us and it was God who gave us these commandments that is impossible for us to keep why do you think that God isn't responsible for our sinning?

God didn't ask our permission to even be here, he didn't ask our permission for Christ to die for us.

God is ultimately responsible for our birth, death, salvation, and everything in between. We can only choose what is available to us and who was it that created all things?

Man works, moves, acts, eats, lives, dies, with what God has provided for us.  (Acts 17:28) "For in him we live, and move, and have our being:

Now it says that God doesn't tempt man and that is right, but he gave that job to Satan or influences that will cause us to be tempted.

If you put your child in a room full of toys and tell it it can play with any toy but don't touch the doll or car, what is the first thing it will do once you leave the room? You know it will do what you told it not to do because you know how the mind of a two or three year old operates.  God knows the beginning and he knows the outcome because he created all things and knows how it all works.

CHB

[Theo Book]

Hi Theo,

The way I came to understand that God didn't just allow things to happen, that he planned it all is like this:

You said that "God didn't cause you to sin", in a sense that is right. Let's go back to the beginning and ask ourselves these questions.

Who created Satan/the serpent, or whatever you want to call it?

God did.

Who put the tree in the garden of Eden?

God did.

Who made law and gave it to us in the first place?

God did.

Doesn't it say that sin is the transgression of law?

Correct.

Where did this law come from?

From God.

Wasn't Adam and Eve flesh? If so, then it says the flesh cannot please God.

Not until after the fall of man. Prior to that fall, he loo0k and proclaimed all things "very good."

If God created the thing, Satan that is always tempting us and it was God who gave us these commandments that is impossible for us to keep why do you think that God isn't responsible for our sinning?

Because with every temptation, God provides a way of escape. The fact that we do not avail ourselveof that A"way of escape" does nothing to negate the fact or the reality of it.  [1 Cor 10:13] "There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it."

It is similar to an event in which you give your graduating daughter a car for comploeting the rigors of school. If she goes out and some drunken idiot runs into her car and she gets killed in the car, is it your fault because you gave her the car? "Time and circumstance happeneth to them all." It is so much easier to just blame God for everything, but I blame God for absolutely positively NOTHING. He provides. We either use or abuse. Are YOU responsible for every abuse your children pile on the blessings you provide for them? You buy a television for their entertainment when they are little children; as teens they ruin their health by non-stop addictive t.v. - do you take the blame? Or have they refused to stop after you tried to rectify the issue? You might even die in an attempt to correct something that has gone radically wrong with something you provided initially, but blame belongs on the one who abuses through making bad decisions.

God didn't ask our permission to even be here, he didn't ask our permission for Christ to die for us.

The old issue of "Don't blame me, I didn't ask to exist" is so out of balance with reality it seldom deserves a response. Consequences for our decisions NEVER have anything to do with our not being consulted about our existence. If we existed, it would be too late, if we did not yet exist, how is one to ask? It is so far out of reality it makes me want to describe it with bad words. Shame on you for tempting me. (See how easy it is to assign fault?)

God is ultimately responsible for our birth, death, salvation, and everything in between. We can only choose what is available to us and who was it that created all things?

Too many questions there to respond with one answer. You mix absolute responsibility put on God for creating all things, with our actively "choosing" which implies F/W, which is not a topic for this board. But I agree, "we can only choose." It is a choice. It is a selection of available options, including a "way of escape" from all temptations.

Man works, moves, acts, eats, lives, dies, with what God has provided for us.  (Acts 17:28) "For in him we live, and move, and have our being:

Now it says that God doesn't tempt man and that is right, but he gave that job to Satan or influences that will cause us to be tempted.

AND provides a way of escape, for all temptations. THAT implies choice on my part.

If you put your child in a room full of toys and tell it it can play with any toy but don't touch the doll or car, what is the first thing it will do once you leave the room? You know it will do what you told it not to do because you know how the mind of a two or three year old operates.  God knows the beginning and he knows the outcome because he created all things and knows how it all works.

THAT is an assumption. God says otherwise. He says "Neither came it into my mind" in Jeremiah 32:35 "And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin."

AND God told Israel - " Deuteronomy 8:2 And thou shalt remember all the way which the LORD thy God led thee these forty years in the wilderness, to humble thee, and to prove thee, to know what was in thine heart, whether thou wouldest keep his commandments, or no."

Joshua 5:6 "For the children of Israel walked forty years in the wilderness, till all the people that were men of war, which came out of Egypt, were consumed, because they obeyed not the voice of the LORD: unto whom the LORD sware that he would not shew them the land, which the LORD sware unto their fathers that he would give us, a land that floweth with milk and honey."

God did not prejudge Israel, he gave them a task and watched them perform, and only after they failed did he punish their efforts for disobedience, not for lack of performance. Disobedience is an act of will, following instruction.

In no way did God give them commandments knowing they would fial, then hit them with punishment for doing that which he knew all along they would do. THAT is not found in scripture. "Will with the temptation, provide a way of escape" is scripture.

What say you?

[Paul Hazelwood]

So far, we have a story that presents us with a son in his youth, impatient and reckless, asking for something he had not a right to ask, his inheritance, whcih usually waits for the passing of a generation, to spend it upon his whimsical wants. Upon wasting his living, he remembers the "good ol' days" and returns(repent = a turning back) to his father's house, expressing his acceptance of his fatherr's jugment, even to the point of being considered one of the servants, rather than an heir. This is no longer a son in youth trying to gain advantage; this is a repentant son striving for a better reality than his actions have provided.

One thing I want to make sure of.  One misunderstanding that can rear it's head is that Christian universalism in any way teaches that the unrepentant get saved. The issue really is if any can possibly remain unrepentant endlessly.  While true the parable of the prodical son shows the son leaving home and making choices without the father seeking and coming after him to persuade him to do anything. 

This is a picture of but one way we come back home.

The law of reaping what we sow is one thing God has put into place in order that we learn and many times reaping what we sow is all we need to return home.


We also have the parable of the lost sheep, where it is explained that the shepherd looks "until" it is found. This is another thing that God has set into place.  There is no possible way that God can seek us "until" we are found if there is a time limit on how long he has to look.   

[Theo Book]

One thing I want to make sure of.  One misunderstanding that can rear it's head is that Christian universalism in any way teaches that the unrepentant get saved. The issue really is if any can possibly remain unrepentant endlessly.

THAT is the crux of the matter. I indeed thought that was what USAL teaches.

There is no provision made for the dead tro repent of anything, and the judgment is going to judge us for the deeds done IN THE BODY, which kinda limits us to when we were alive.

???

[CHB]

THAT is an assumption. God says otherwise. He says "Neither came it into my mind" in Jeremiah 32:35 "And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

look at this verse really good. It says "which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind.  

God didn't command them to do this neither did it come into his mind to command them to do it. That is not a commandment he gave them.

He gave them other commandments which they couldn't keep either and he took responsibility for it by saying, "The great temptations which thine eyes have seen, the signs, and those great miracles; Yet the Lord HATH NOT GIVEN YOU AN HEART TO PERCIEVE, AND EYES TO SEE, AND EARS TO HEAR, UNTO THIS DAY".

God is teaching us good and evil. He gave Israel laws to live by and consequences if they broke those laws. He also blinded their eyes and stopped their ears so they would experience the evil or consequences for not keepin those laws.

CHB

  

[Paul Hazelwood]

THAT is the crux of the matter. I indeed thought that was what USAL teaches.

There is no provision made for the dead tro repent of anything, and the judgment is going to judge us for the deeds done IN THE BODY, which kinda limits us to when we were alive.

???

Well if your comment is a statement concerning salvation then are you saying deeds are what saves us?
 

[jabcat]

Hi Theo.  Re: the prodigal son, take it another step deeper - ultimately, who sets the parameters of the conditions, set the law of reaping and sowing in place, put the hole in our heart that longs for God, etc?  I believe it's God Almighty - "man's mind plans his way, but God directs his steps" (Pr. 16:9).  

[CHB]

Wasn't Adam and Eve flesh? If so, then it says the flesh cannot please God.

Not until after the fall of man. Prior to that fall, he loo0k and proclaimed all things "very good."

God said it was "good", he didn't say it was perfect. It won't be perfect until all is in all.

You keep saying "the fall of man". Where did man fall from? Adam and Eve were flesh and blood just like we are. Eve sinned before she ever partook of the tree of good and evil. She LUSTED for the fruit of the vine, thought it could make her wise, PRIDEFUL.

CHB