Author Topic: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS  (Read 71097 times)

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Offline Pierac

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #275 on: March 26, 2010, 04:01:06 AM »


This free will topic could get wore out real quick, and for the record if God saving all mankind does mean absolutely we have no free will, freedom of our will a certain liberty of our will,  then thats cool with me.   God will be the one to correct me and I accept his correction.


Jer 32:35 And they built the high places of Baal, which [are] in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through [the fire] unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.



I can only go by the entire scope of scripture the best I know and through prayer and study  offer things to consider.   I don't know if I will have much more to say on the matter.


Amen Paul,

It was not "free will" that got me fired up enough to seek understanding in reguards to Eternal Torment!  It was the Calvinist! Yes, I attended a Calvinist church and came to see some scary stuff in our scriptures, IF E.T. was correct that is!

Let me explain some scripture to you. :wink:


Paul,
Your faith comes not from you! If it did then you would not be relying entirely on GRACE!


So where does your faith come from?

Faith is a GIFT - Eph 2:8-10 - "For it is by free grace (God's unmerited favor) that you are saved (delivered from judgment and made partakers of Christ's salvation) through [ the gift of] faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [of your own doing, it came not through your own striving], but it is the gift of God; Not because of works [not the fulfillment of the Law's demands], lest any man should boast. [It is not the result of what anyone can possibly do, so no one can pride himself in it or take glory to himself.] For we are God's [own] handiwork (His workmanship), recreated in Christ Jesus, [born anew] that we may do those good works which God predestined (planned beforehand) for us [taking paths which He prepared ahead of time], that we should walk in them [living the good life which He prearranged and made ready for us to live].

Yes indeed! Even your belief is a Gift!

Belief is a GIFT  - Phil 1:29 - "For you have been granted  [the gift] to grant as a favor  for Christ's sake not only to believe  in (adhere to, rely on, and trust in) Him, but also to suffer in His behalf."

Time to open your eyes Paul!

Net Bible Eph 1:11  In Christ28 we too have been we were predestined 29 according to the one purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to the counsel of his will

Net Bible commentary: 29 tn Grk  "we were appointed by lot." The notion of the verb κληρόω (klēroō) in the OT was to "appoint a portion by lot" (the more frequent cognate verb κληρονομέω [klēronomclaimed as God's own possession,29 since eō] meant "obtain a portion by lot"). In the passive, as here, the idea is that "we were appointed [as a portion] by lot" (BDAG 548 s.v. κληρόω 1). The words "God's own" have been supplied in the translation to clarify this sense of the verb. An alternative interpretation is that believers receive a portion as an inheritance: "In Christ we too have been appointed a portion of the inheritance." See H. W. Hoehner, Ephesians, 226-27, for discussion on this interpretive issue.

Now let's get down to business!

We are told in no uncertain terms that it is God who enlightens our minds to famthom these wonderful truths we are privileged to comprehend. Jesus said...

John 6:44  "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws (Gr drags) him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

Php 2:13  for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.


Rom 11:25  For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery--so that you will not be wise in your own estimation--that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 26  and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB." 27"THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS." 28  From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30  For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, 31  so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. 32  For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all. 33  Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways!

Now let's review the apostles Paul's version of our lot!

Col 1:12  giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance G2819 of the saints in Light.

What inheritance? G2819

G2819

κληρος kléros; gen. klérou, masc. noun probably from kláō (G2806), to break.  A lot.

(I) A lot, the stone or mark itself which was cast into the urn or lap (Mat_27:35; Mar_15:24; Luk_23:34; Joh_19:24; Act_1:26; Sept.: Psa_22:18; Jon_1:7). It seems that the Greek method of casting lots was also followed by the Romans. The lots of several parties were properly marked or distinguished and put into a vessel which was violently shaken by one who turned his face away. The lot which first fell upon the ground indicated the man chosen or preferred for the occasion. The Romans attributed divine choice to this method.

(II) A lot, allotment, part, or share (Act_1:17
, Act_1:26; Act_8:21; Sept.: Deu_10:9; Deu_12:12).
(III) An inheritance (Act_26:18 [cf. Act_20:32]; Col_1:12 [cf. the noun klēronomía {G2817}, inheritance]).
(IV) Kléroi, in the pl. (1Pe_5:3), seems to denote those distinct congregations of Christians (cf. Deu_4:20; Deu_9:29) which fell to the lot, as it were, of different pastors. Deriv.: klēronómos (G2818), one who has an inheritance, a lot; klēróō (G2820), to cast lots, determine by lot; naúklēros (G3490), an owner of a ship; holóklēros (G3648), an entire portion, intact. Syn.: méros (G3313), a part, portion of the whole; merís (G3310), part, share.

Just ask John the Baptist's father! Luke 1:9  according to the custom of the priestly office, he was chosen by lot to enter the temple of the Lord and burn incense. G2819

Ouch! Paul this sucks!

1Pe 5:3  nor yet as lording it over those allotted (again G2819) to your charge, but proving to be examples to the flock.


Now let's see this in action!

Indeed, You know you and I were saved while we were yet  sinners! Yes, you and I were saved in our sins! Indeed, however, others were not alotted as you and I! They were not saved in their sins!

Mark 4:11  And he said to them, "To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables, 12  so that "they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven."

No my friend! Their lot was different! Read it again! If they heard the truth, they would have turned and been forgiven!

But Paul said it was not their lot! (Yet)!

Rom 11:7  What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened,

2Th 2:13  But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.



Yep...Elect! G1589
εκλογή
eklogé; gen. eklogés, fem. noun from eklégō (G1586), to choose, select. Election, choice, selection.


So Paul, do you want to see this preaching action of God's apostles in your New Testament in action?


Act 13:48  When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.


Hum? Let's review the Latin Vulgate!

Act 13:48  audientes autem gentes gavisae sunt et glorificabant verbum Domini et crediderunt quotquot erant praeordinati ad vitam aeternam

No paul, I don't read Latin, but I know praeordinati when I see it!

After all... John 6:65  And He (Jesus) was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."

Don't worry, each will come in God's on time!

If your of the chosen lot! What make you think you can pass judgement on the harden ones? Paul told you...


Rom 11:25  For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery-- so that you will not be wise in your own estimation--that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,... for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable...  For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

Who know's Paul, maybe you are chosen? Only God knows HIS chosen LOT!

Chosen indeed, but for what? Yep, that 1000 years before the rest of the dead come to life.  (Rev 20:5)

I'd sure like to know what's happening in that Thousand years before the rest come!

Paul




Paul Hazelwood

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #276 on: March 26, 2010, 05:39:14 AM »


Paul, you have not written anything I argue against per sey.   But none of that changes the scripture that I pointed out.  The scripture I pointed out does not change the scripture you gave either.

What changes is what we can know.    Salvation is not of us, and I have never said anything different.  The reason you may feel that I say otherwise is that we take a term and argue over it rather than actually letting scripture be the guide.

I honestly do not care if you call it "F W"  or not.   The fact remains is that I CAN devise a way in my heart not because I have "F W" but because SCRIPTURE says I can in proverbs.

I CAN put my life into turmoil through a choice I make, because SCRIPTURE says I can in Matthew 7.


But the reality is that GOD prepared the way for all I choose to do because SCRIPTURE says he does also in proverbs.

That preparation is what prevents me from being lost forever but saves me despite the choices I make that take me to through the path of destruction as stated in 1 Corinthians.   

Not because I do or do not have "F W" but because SCRIPTURE says that's how it is

You can apply whatever term you like and that does not change scriptural reality.    I am all for continuing to seek that reality and it can be called whatever it's called.




Offline jabcat

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #277 on: March 26, 2010, 05:49:54 AM »


Paul, you have not written anything I argue against per sey.   But none of that changes the scripture that I pointed out.  The scripture I pointed out does not change the scripture you gave either.

What changes is what we can know.    Salvation is not of us, and I have never said anything different.  The reason you may feel that I say otherwise is that we take a term and argue over it rather than actually letting scripture be the guide.

Both of you Paul's are saying good stuff.  

Good summary of this topic, PaulH.  Isn't that the truth?   We often end up quibbling over terms instead of what really matters.  Very good  :thumbsup:.


And I got a chuckle out of this;

I honestly do not care if you call it "F W"  or not.   The fact remains is that I CAN devise a way in my heart not because I have "F W" but because SCRIPTURE says I can in proverbs.

 :laugh:  You really tried, didn't cha brother.  I think FW makes fishing lures, don't they?   :coolsmile:
« Last Edit: March 26, 2010, 05:58:15 AM by jabcat »

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #278 on: March 26, 2010, 06:04:11 AM »
Both of you Paul's are saying good stuff.  

Yes the other Paul did say things I agree with very much, sometimes I do not mention that when I open my foghorn.


Quote
:laugh:  You really tried, didn't cha brother.  I think FW makes fishing lures, don't they?   :coolsmile:


LOL

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #279 on: March 26, 2010, 06:06:04 AM »

Offline jabcat

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #280 on: March 26, 2010, 06:07:43 AM »

Offline jabcat

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #281 on: March 26, 2010, 06:09:42 AM »
FW
LOL

Man, I've kept laughing.  Thanks  :bigGrin:

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #282 on: March 26, 2010, 06:19:04 AM »


...just something to read:
www.kingdombiblestudies.org/savior/SOW4.htm

One of my favorites  :thumbsup:.

Mine too.
Left to our own devices, God planned and made Way.
Oh! Proud Man — vanity — all is vanity.


Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #284 on: March 26, 2010, 06:56:09 AM »
Who am I?
Who I am!
www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWeEYKqAdQ8&feature=related

I Am Yours, because of Who You Are

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #285 on: March 26, 2010, 07:19:59 AM »

It's all about the reNEWing of our minds and identifying with Christ.
Without Him...just look at the villains of history — we are they!
With Him — we are the masterpiece of God's creation — Emmanuel, God with us.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=05Y-Px39cm4

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #286 on: March 26, 2010, 07:23:11 AM »


AND WHO IS THIS EMMANUEL, GOD WITH US?
IT IS YOU DEAR SAINTS, YOU IN HIM, HIM IN US!

Offline peacemaker

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #287 on: March 26, 2010, 07:41:03 AM »
Along came the tempter; the lust of the eyes (understanding the mind), lust of the flesh (a heart of emotion) and the pride of life (the desires of the will). Thus, while the first Adam conceded to all that is in the world, the second Adam stood his ground against the natural disposition or temperament.

The mark extends deep down from the surface, yet is visible through distinctive traits or characteristics common to human beings when in opposition to the Spirit, as "The beast nature in us insists upon having its own way."

Self preservation leads to denial, however; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day (star) shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire ... If any man's work (exerting effort directed to produce or accomplish something for themselves) shall be burned [katakaio; to burn down to the ground, to consume wholly, burn up, utterly – from the intensity of that light], he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire. (1 Corinthians 3:13-15, also see Revelation 20:13-15)

The way, truth, and life that God has prepared for the health (salvation) of everyone is a fruit product of infinite wisdom, powerfully efficacious from beginning to end.

Perhaps, the psychology of Satan and Hell within Religions, including the fears of Eternal punishment have clouded the soul.

"Every clouded soul has a silver lining; it never hurts to see the brighter side of things."

A cloudy day is no match for a sunny disposition.

Offline peacemaker

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #288 on: March 26, 2010, 07:45:53 AM »
Wonderful Peacemaker!
Where have you been?
Please stay.

I'll be back, yet always present.



Theo Book

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #289 on: March 26, 2010, 12:48:59 PM »


Paul, you have not written anything I argue against per sey.   But none of that changes the scripture that I pointed out.  The scripture I pointed out does not change the scripture you gave either.

What changes is what we can know.    Salvation is not of us, and I have never said anything different.  The reason you may feel that I say otherwise is that we take a term and argue over it rather than actually letting scripture be the guide.

I honestly do not care if you call it "F W"  or not.   The fact remains is that I CAN devise a way in my heart not because I have "F W" but because SCRIPTURE says I can in proverbs.

I CAN put my life into turmoil through a choice I make, because SCRIPTURE says I can in Matthew 7.


But the reality is that GOD prepared the way for all I choose to do because SCRIPTURE says he does also in proverbs.

Paul, I have been following the posts lately instead of being the posts, because I am perplexed by some of what I am reading. Please indicate if I am misapplying what has been said. One post seems to me to indicate that if I sin it is God's will that I have sinned. Have I misunderstood?

Is it so, that God selects whom he will to do his will, and selects others to serve his will as protagonists? As sinners? Does God choose some from among men to be punished for doing that which God designed him to do in violation of what God commands all men to do? Help me understand this.

That preparation is what prevents me from being lost forever but saves me despite the choices I make that take me to through the path of destruction as stated in 1 Corinthians.   

Not because I do or do not have "F W" but because SCRIPTURE says that's how it is

You can apply whatever term you like and that does not change scriptural reality.    I am all for continuing to seek that reality and it can be called whatever it's called.




[/quote]

Offline rosered

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #290 on: March 26, 2010, 04:41:09 PM »

 
  Dear Theo
  you know what , I am so glad you are  careful 
 with how you hear and how you handle the Word of Life
 
 and make sure things are settled within  and set well with you 
 It took years before  the Lord and the Holy Spirit  taught  me   His Truth about salvation 
 the Love of God is far greater than any  human mind can comprehend
 and though  we think we have the mind of Christ 

  we can read in the   LIVING WORD   all the examples of those whom stumbled  in the Living Word over and over again 
 and  in humility  I confess to be as one of them  :mblush:
 
 no one can ever speak these things without  an annointing on them from Jesus  Himself 
 its a  absolute Truth
  many cannot accept this
 
  just as  many could not accept it when Jesus come   the first time and told them of the new  covenant   Jesus Himself was bringing in ... 
all the percecutions   and doubts and our faith  being tested in this very thing , over and over again  FATHER showing His faithfulness  though Jesus Christ
 
   the Body of Christ/  body of living works   is ALIVE  and moving in the earth  and changing minds and hearts   continually
 
the breath of God , all that has to be done to make this as real as  rain  in you
 and that  comes by  faith and faith comes by hearing and those whom come are sent by the Lord Himself  , proving that His love , mercy  and great grace are a reality in a world with no hope , but in Him
 
  we serve a Living God and  are sons of God  by the adoption into  His family  of whom all the  new heavens and earth are named
 
  Jesus Christ , this name was hidden till  He was sent by the Father
 
  and none  can claim it is NOT HIM doing it / that is what we do know  its not of ourselves
 
without His Holy Spirit living in us and  giving us the mind of Christ  doing His will  ...
  we are to love and mostly forgive  and are to even   find joy in all tribulations  knowing it is working the righteousness of God and revealing Christ Light in the darkness of this world 
 
be bleessed  by Him in all you seek in the Lord and His wisdom 
 :cloud9:

Offline CHB

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #291 on: March 26, 2010, 05:13:21 PM »

Amen rosered!!!!


Here is the part of the article that was presented that convinced me that everything that happens in our lives no matter how small is OF, BY and THROUGH God. There is no way of getting around the fact that God is working everything out to his satisfaction, not us.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
"Even if Adam was a free moral agent, God is responsible for what happened in the Garden, for whatever a free moral agent may do, He is responsible for it who made him a free moral agent. If God made man a free moral agent, then God created within man the propensities for either good or evil which determined his choices. If God made man a free moral agent, He knew beforehand what the result would be, and hence is just as responsible for the consequences of the acts of that free moral agent as He would be for the act of an irresponsible machine that He had made. Man's free moral agency, even if it were true, would by no means clear God from the responsibility of his acts since God is his Creator and has made him in the first place just what he is, well knowing what the result would be. If God's will is ever thwarted, then He is not almighty. If His will is thwarted, then His plans must be changed, and hence He is not all-wise and immutable. If His will is never thwarted, then all things are in accordance with His will and He is the architect of all things as they exist. If He is all-wise and all-good, then all things, existing according to His will, must be working toward some wise and wonderful end!  {J Preston Eby}
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Here is some more good articles by L Ray Smith.
 
http://bible-truths.com/lake15.html

CHB


Paul Hazelwood

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #292 on: March 26, 2010, 07:07:32 PM »

One post seems to me to indicate that if I sin it is God's will that I have sinned.

In short, the direct answer is yes.  But I believe it is the nature of the circumstances that causes many of us to have disagreements.   Let me ask you a question to get us started in a dialog between You and I about this specifically.

Do you believe that the basic concept might be that if God allows something to happen that in some manner it must have been his will for it to happen?


« Last Edit: March 26, 2010, 07:12:57 PM by Paul Hazelwood »

Theo Book

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #293 on: March 26, 2010, 07:30:16 PM »

One post seems to me to indicate that if I sin it is God's will that I have sinned.

In short, the direct answer is yes.  But I believe it is the nature of the circumstances that causes many of us to have disagreements.   Let me ask you a question to get us started in a dialog between You and I about this specifically.

Do you believe that the basic concept might be that if God allows something to happen that in some manner it must have been his will for it to happen?

That's too vague."might be" "in some manner" "must have been" all seem noncommittal to me. More to the point, if God willed for me to sin, what then is the meaning of James 1:13 "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death." It looks to me like God expects something better of me than to yield to temptation and sin. How do you resolve this complexity?

And the concept of saying God expected me to sin, yea, willed it, contrasts with Rom 3:8 "And not rather, as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say, Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just."
To say man sins to accomodate God's grace to me says "Let us sin so God's grace may about; exactly what Paul says is slanderous. What say you?


Theo Book

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #294 on: March 26, 2010, 07:36:19 PM »

Jabcat, my friend, with regard to the thread posted by me and locked, please do not hesitate to delete it if it in fact violates board policy. I will not be offended. I simply responded to what I understood to be a request for me to tell "what I believe." And also to cover questions about John's reference to the logos, and Jesus, and beginnings, all of which I tried to incorporate into the thread.

It really has not anything to do with USAL, but then neither does some of the questions that were posted to me, so I thought to respond to them by the invitation.

My ego is covered by the blood of Christ, as i know many here are also. Feel free to dispose of the issue as you will.

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #295 on: March 26, 2010, 08:30:00 PM »
That's too vague."might be" "in some manner" "must have been" all seem noncommittal to me.

I am being vague because I am not at this point going to debate with you about the meanings of scripture until I have an understanding of how you see things right now.  

Let me try to ask again.    Do you believe that there is anything that happens that God has not allowed to happen?





« Last Edit: March 26, 2010, 08:41:15 PM by Paul Hazelwood »

mikeeb

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #296 on: March 26, 2010, 08:49:27 PM »
Hi
New to  the forum and definately believe in the Ultimate Reconsiliation of all to God through the finished work of Christ :thumbsup:

mikeeb

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #297 on: March 26, 2010, 09:04:21 PM »
Some He will save By"pulling them out of the Fire, Hating even the garment spotted by the flesh" as Paul states. But none the less they will be saved. Much easier to accept now than later. Better to have his peace now, Why wait. I sometimes have to take my kids to the doctor for a shot-which they hate -but need - but their gonna get it whether they come willingly or kickin and screaming all the way. When they accept its needed it, and Im doing it for their own good - they trust me and its over quickly and much LESS Turmoil.

Offline willieH

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #298 on: March 26, 2010, 10:55:52 PM »
willieH: Hi Theo... :hithere:

I'm not Paul (obviously!)... but I would like to give you something to think about bro...

Paul, I have been following the posts lately instead of being the posts, because I am perplexed by some of what I am reading. Please indicate if I am misapplying what has been said. One post seems to me to indicate that if I sin it is God's will that I have sinned. Have I misunderstood?

How can something be IN the Creation of God, and NOT be forthcoming OF HIS WILL? :dunno:

To assign such means that ..."CLAY" generates the shape it becomes (is becoming) via its own propensity!  As an observer of nature, ...what "CLAY" has ever been witnessed "shaping itself" (in a good, bad, ugly or beautiful "manner")?

I might volunteer that this whole "Creation" scenario is being "PROJECTED" (EXPRESSED) by GOD... to include ALL THINGS which occur IN IT -- which actively -- LIVE -- the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL...

Like it or not, this observation I offer to you, is made in COMPLETE ALIGNMENT with Eph 1:11 -- as well as is found in alignment with many other verses which speak of MAN and his "doings", as being DIRECTED by YHVH -- Rom 9:21 -- Jer 18:4 -- Prov 16:9 -- Jer 10:23 -- Prov 20:24 -- Jer 29:14

Let me begin by saying that the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL which "man" has come to "know" -- Gen 3:22 -- was FIRST, ...PRIOR to this EXPRESSION (or "PROJECTION"), ...found EXCLUSIVELY within the heart of YHVH God...

Which also means that in order for OUR HEARTS to be as IS HIS... then OUR HEARTS must also contain this "KNOWLEDGE"... otherwise His heart would DIFFER from ours...

GOD is ALL in ALL... (He does not "need" the manifestation of TIME, which is a "created" entity, in order to BE -- ANYTHING)  GOD is an UNCHANGING being -- Mal 3:6 -- which means that He never, EVER... "becomes" something that He "IS", ...NOT!

Also ...He is ETERNAL which means that "how He IS", He HAS ALWAYS BEEN ---> IS ---> and ALWAYS WILL BE...

We on the other hand, as we view ourselves within this scenario, are part of a TEMPORAL setting even though we are found within HIM who IS ETERNAL -- Act 17:28 -- and which is UNCHANGING, and which is and remains, PERFECTLY UNALTERED for EVER...

:cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9:

All that said... In HOPES to convey (and IN that process answer your question above), ...here is my observation of the Creation of GOD:

The "Creation" has ALWAYS BEEN... but VEILED to ALL... except YHVH God.

ALL that occurs in this scenario is the projection (expression) of that which is IN the Heart of YHVH...

The knowledge of EVIL is simply the "flipside" of the knowledge of GOOD... TOGETHER they are ONE KNOWLEDGE, ...both are necessary that the other be KNOWN for what the other ...IS... BOTH are FOREVER EXISTENT, ...WITHIN the Heart of YHVH God...

This "Creation scenario" is an REVELATION of that KNOWLEDGE of G & E, which has ALWAYS BEEN, IS and ALWAYS WILL BE...  IOW the Creation never "came into being" it was VEILED to ALL except YHVH (within the ETERNAL setting.)

YHVH ...IS... REVEALING Himself to ALL that is IN HIM, which includes EVERYTHING living WITHIN Him, extensions OF HIM...

This "Creation scenario" will perish from ACTIVITY/practice... but the KNOWLEDGE availed BY IT... forever ...IS... and forever ...WILL BE... and forever ...WAS...

eh?  :dontknow:

That FINITE vision to a degree, perishes with ETERNAL REVELATION is also, the basis of ALL KNOWLEDGE...

When the "wheel" became known... those LIVING became LARGER by that knowledge.  And MANY things were left behind.  Such as CARRYING heavy objects from one place to another, or WALKING long distances... CARRYING did not disappear, neither did WALKING... however, the "dealings" with both were forever ALTERED and ENLARGED, by the REVELATION of the knowledge of the WHEEL.

EVIL as a practice shall FINITELY remain in this TEMPORAL historical document we LIVE and KNOW as TIME... within its "portion" of the KNOWLEDGE of GOD... but it's KNOWLEDGE, shall remain FOREVER as the indicator of PRAISE which is given to the GLORY -- that is known as LOVE and is named, YHVH God...

...willieH  :HeartThrob:

Theo Book

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #299 on: March 27, 2010, 01:26:36 AM »
That's too vague."might be" "in some manner" "must have been" all seem noncommittal to me.

I am being vague because I am not at this point going to debate with you about the meanings of scripture until I have an understanding of how you see things right now.  

Let me try to ask again.    Do you believe that there is anything that happens that God has not allowed to happen?

Different question. o.k.
Response. No. If God does not allow something to happen, it doesn't, didn't, and won't happen. NOTHING overpowers God's rule.

ORIGINAL QUESTION:
Quote
Do you believe that the basic concept might be that if God allows something to happen that in some manner it must have been his will for it to happen?

Many things happen that are not God's will for them to happen. THAT does NOT mean God does not allow some things that are against his will. Sometimes, a parent will allow a child to touch the warm stove, to teach him/her about heat and danger, but it is not the parents will that the child be injured. It was not even the parents will that the child touch the stove, but observation demonstrates the strength of the child's will, and the parent provides for different eventuallities.

God allowed Isreal to disobey his commandments, over and over again, but that did not change either the commandments nor the covenant under which the commandments came. It did change the Israelites relation to God, in that they moved from obedient, to disobedient. They moved from receiving blessings, to receiving curses. That did not change the fact they were God's chosen people.

To me, "will" implies intent. When you say it was God's will, I read "it was God's intent... He willed it to be so." God predestined a class of people to conform to the pattern laid down by his son. He did not say "Willie, and James, and Bob etc. will be saved but John and Ed and Joe will be lost. He said "Whoever believes my son, and is baptized into his death, will receive power to become sons of God. "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:" Those who denied him, did not receive that power.

I believe I am beginning to see your point on eventual salvation for all souls, but it remains for me to resolve a couple of issues. I do not see yet, where God's enemies are allowed back into the fold. Can you help me resolve this?
« Last Edit: March 27, 2010, 03:30:38 AM by Theo Book »