Author Topic: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS  (Read 63045 times)

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Offline WhiteWings

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #225 on: March 23, 2010, 03:16:54 PM »
Gen 1:27 So God [epoieesen] created man in his own image, in the image of God [epoieesen] created he him; male and female created he them. ["epoieesen" is aorist active] "is being created" is present active.

Man is being created in the image of God.  RIGHT NOW. And in the future... until God has completed making man in His image.

But according to you and mainstream tradition, man who was in the perfect exact final image of God, SINNED!  How ridiculous is that?  Think about it.  If  man is in the perfect express image of God, how can man sin since God does not sin?
[/quote]
First of all according to Jewish scholars it's not image but schadow or inside a outline (of Jesus)
What verse states it was equally perfect as Father and more important the same as Father?
What is perfect? I posted a message on that 2 weeks ago. Not sure it was in this thread. Perfect can't be understood without the context. If a surgeon would have saved the lives of all 10,000 patients he had during his career he would have a perfect track record. If a army general wipes out 10,000 enemy troops in a few hours he did a perfect job.
10,000 saved = perfect. 10,000 killed = perfect. Whoops :winkgrin:


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Are you familiar with Enoch, seventh from Adam? He "pleased God and was not, for God took him, for he pleased God." Enoch was translated, never having died,
I'm gonna dig up something when I'm at home.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline legoman

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #226 on: March 23, 2010, 03:26:56 PM »

Gen 1:27 So God [epoieesen] created man in his own image, in the image of God [epoieesen] created he him; male and female created he them. ["epoieesen" is aorist active] "is being created" is present active.
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Man is being created in the image of God.  RIGHT NOW. And in the future... until God has completed making man in His image.

But according to you and mainstream tradition, man who was in the perfect exact final image of God, SINNED!  How ridiculous is that?  Think about it.  If  man is in the perfect express image of God, how can man sin since God does not sin?

Are you familiar with Enoch, seventh from Adam? He "pleased God and was not, for God took him, for he pleased God." Enoch was translated, never having died, for the wages of sin is death.  It was not ordained that man would sin.

Gen 5:22 "And Enoch walked with God..." (This reminds me of Adam in the beginning)
Gen 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Enoch not only pleased God when he walked with God, he was also a prophet of God:
Jude 1:14 "And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,"

It is beginning to seem as though you are correct, however, except for scenes like this one. How is it Enoch never obeyed God and sinned, when scripture says he obeyed God by NOT sinning; and "God is no respecter of persons." Seems confusing to me.

I'm not sure what you are getting at here with Enoch.

Regarding Gen 1:27, here is the Concordant Literal version:
"And saying is the Alueim, Make will We humanity in Our image, and according to Our likeness… And creating is the Alueim humanity in His image. In the Image of the Alueim He creates it. Male and female He creates them"

Notice it is "creating", "creates", etc.  This indicates to me an ongoing process.

But if you still believe man was really in the perfect image of God, then you must admit that man would not have sinned, because God does not sin.  Since man did sin, we know he could not have been in the perfect image of God. ie. Man was not completed in God's image yet.

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I see a certain pattern of sense in your presentation, which I will have to contemploate on for a bit. I have to evaluate what I know with what you have presented, and see if it meshes in truth. I will probably look over some more posts in the meantime, though I may not respond for a while, as I think on these things.

Patience?

No problem.  Patience is one of the fruits of the spirit :Sparkletooth:  so perhaps that is what God is trying to teach us all here...

Theo Book

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #227 on: March 23, 2010, 03:29:00 PM »
If the arguments posted all over the website about "aiwnion" NOT meaning eternal, but "age" are any indication of what this site is about, then I am correct, not simply "overloaded" and "already thinking you are wrong" as you indicate.

In Mat 25:46 "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal," both "everlasting" and "eternal" are the same form of the same word, "aiwnion" and therfore cannot be used to mean two radically different and opposing timeframes.
Theo you wrote you spend 50 years studying Trinty. You also have a forum that is focusing on Trintity. Why study so long on a subject that can be explained in 10 verses?
It's a bit the same with aion. The word is simple. But when you start applying it may seem to contradict. Or state Father is not eternal. And to clear up those questions much more verses/study is needed. I assume that's not unlike a solid Trinity study.

Let me give you a thought to consider....

wwMat 25:46 "And these shall goto jail for 100 years: but the righteous shall party for a 100 years,"

Nope that verse is not from a special UR Bible  :laughing7: Just me changing some words to clarify.
What does that verse tells us?
1. The wicked will spend 100 years in jail.
2. The rightous will have 100 years of parting.

What does it not say?
1. What happens after those 100 years to both groups.
2. Many, many, many other things.

That's just one thought.
There are many post on the subject. But a new thread on teh subject recently got started here

I am already suffering from too much input, which I cannot rest until I have considered it all, and I see where my previous understanding was due to a lack of some of this information, and YOU do THIS to me?

Thanks! I will consider it.

Theo Book

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #228 on: March 23, 2010, 03:35:06 PM »
And for the record, Theo, perhaps you do but — I DO NOT SERVE A MORTAL GOD.

I do not serve a mortal God either, BServant. And I apologize from the depth of my soul  for offending you when I intended no offense.

Just because I have different beliefs for a season, than you do, does not mean I belittle your beliefs, rather I am almost desparate to understand what it is you believe, because your belief seems to give you peace, while mine keeps me seeking for answers.

You can continue to fight me and make me feel bad, or join with me in MY search for truth. I really do not want to fight you, nor do I intentionally insult you or your beliefs. Again, I do, with full humility, apologize for any and all offense I have given to all on this board. It is not my intent.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2010, 03:46:17 PM by Theo Book »

Theo Book

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #229 on: March 23, 2010, 03:44:19 PM »
It still contrasts with "Choose you this day whom you will serve, as for me and my house, we will serve jehovah." If God was just teasing them, I begin to have a desparate problem. If he meant it, then YOU begin to have a desperate problem.

I've thought about that scripture too.  What if it has other possibiliites, such as "yes, we make choices - within the parameters God sets" - i.e., "we plan our way but God directs our steps?"  Some things just aren't as black and white as we've often made them.  Such as destruction, or judgment.  We often add "complete" to destruction [or "that means going to hell"], or "eternal/without remedy" to judgment - when digging deeper and clearer revelation reveals some other aspects.  Thinkin' here... :scratchhead:   :bigGrin:

Good point!

I will share with you what is part of my problem, so you will at least understand why I seem stubborn to some on this board, and maybe rightly so.

I began life as a Catholic, and studied my way out of Catholicism at some slight cost to my ego. I then became a member of the Church of Christ, those pesky little "Only we have the truth" people. I was disfellowshipped from them over the issue of the equality of divinity and pre-existence of Jesus.

I now find that Gary Amirault's presentation of USAL is not all ther is to the issue, and it is almost overload to my mind. I will simply read this board,a nd not participate in any more posts if that becomes necessary, but read it I will, unless banned from so doing.

When I study an issue, I do so to great depth, and believe with finality, only until I find I am wrong. I cannot afford to be flung about "with every wind of doctrine," so I seem stubborn to some, but I think it is time I take a stand SOMEWHERE. As I have indicated elsewhere, I .like what I am hearing, but am slow to change again, as I have done so too many times already.

Please , understand, and be patient.

Offline legoman

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #230 on: March 23, 2010, 03:45:17 PM »

Regarding Gen 1:27, here is the Concordant Literal version:
"And saying is the Alueim, Make will We humanity in Our image, and according to Our likeness… And creating is the Alueim humanity in His image. In the Image of the Alueim He creates it. Male and female He creates them"

Notice it is "creating", "creates", etc.  This indicates to me an ongoing process.

But if you still believe man was really in the perfect image of God, then you must admit that man would not have sinned, because God does not sin.  Since man did sin, we know he could not have been in the perfect image of God. ie. Man was not completed in God's image yet.

One other thing to consider here.  It may mean something, or it may not mean much. I think it means something.  Look at this, I will give a synopsis of some verses in Gen 1:

Gen 1:3 Light Created
Gen 1:4 It was good

Gen 1:6-9 Water, land, sky separated
Gen 1:10 It was good

Gen 1:11 Plants appear
Gen 1:12 It was good

Gen 1:14-17 Lights (sun, moon, stars) created
Gen 1:18 It was good

Gen 1:20 Water creatures and birds created
Gen 1:21 It was good

Gen 1:24 Land creatures created
Gen 1:25 It was good

Gen 1:26 Man created "Let us make man in our image"
Hmm, it doesn't say "It was good" ... why not, was it not good yet?

Gen 1:31 all that he made, was very good


Now, why does it not say "It was good" immediately after man was created in verse 26, just like every other day when something good was created?  

But still it does say all that was made was very good at the end.  But does "very good" = "perfect"?  I don't think so.  Unless you understand that "perfect" = "perfect for what they were designed for".

For example would you call a scorpion or a poisonous snake or a mosquito or a shark "perfect"?  Yet these were also part of the whole creation that was "very good".  A mosquito is only "perfect" at its job of annoying you and biting you in the summer.  That is what a mosquito is "very good" for - annoying us humans and spreading disease!

I think the fact that it doesn't say "it was good" yet for man, means that we aren't finished yet!  Thus part of the reason why we sinned...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #231 on: March 23, 2010, 03:48:53 PM »
I am almost desparate to understand what it is you believe, because your belief seems to give you peace, while mine keeps me seeking for answers.
I believe you Theo. I'm sure you are a honest searcher. That good. But I think you started your thread in a wrong way.
Something like: "I, Theo, send by God am here to break down UR."
I'm sure some grabbed for their blood pressure medication after reading that  :laughing7:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #232 on: March 23, 2010, 03:56:58 PM »
If the arguments posted all over the website about "aiwnion" NOT meaning eternal, but "age" are any indication of what this site is about, then I am correct, not simply "overloaded" and "already thinking you are wrong" as you indicate.

In Mat 25:46 "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal," both "everlasting" and "eternal" are the same form of the same word, "aiwnion" and therfore cannot be used to mean two radically different and opposing timeframes.
Theo you wrote you spend 50 years studying Trinty. You also have a forum that is focusing on Trintity. Why study so long on a subject that can be explained in 10 verses?
It's a bit the same with aion. The word is simple. But when you start applying it may seem to contradict. Or state Father is not eternal. And to clear up those questions much more verses/study is needed. I assume that's not unlike a solid Trinity study.

Let me give you a thought to consider....

wwMat 25:46 "And these shall goto jail for 100 years: but the righteous shall party for a 100 years,"

Nope that verse is not from a special UR Bible  :laughing7: Just me changing some words to clarify.
What does that verse tells us?
1. The wicked will spend 100 years in jail.
2. The rightous will have 100 years of parting.

What does it not say?
1. What happens after those 100 years to both groups.
2. Many, many, many other things.

That's just one thought.
There are many post on the subject. But a new thread on teh subject recently got started here

I am already suffering from too much input, which I cannot rest until I have considered it all, and I see where my previous understanding was due to a lack of some of this information, and YOU do THIS to me?

Thanks! I will consider it.
That the difficult thing Theo. You can't know everything instantly. At least I can't.
Reading a verse and then draw a conclusion about UR is just like saying "Theo believes in 3 gods because TRI(nity) means 3. That's equally stupid.

Another suggestion to consider. What if you say for 3 weeks just accept the answers given to you. Then you will cover lots more UR ground in a short while. Now you are digging in deep into a single concept. But that's impossible to do if you don't have at least some background info on the general line of thought of UR. And then after those 3 weeks puzzle the pieces together and then start digging real deep.

Just a thought. :2c:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Theo Book

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #233 on: March 23, 2010, 04:06:26 PM »

Regarding Gen 1:27, here is the Concordant Literal version:
"And saying is the Alueim, Make will We humanity in Our image, and according to Our likeness… And creating is the Alueim humanity in His image. In the Image of the Alueim He creates it. Male and female He creates them"

Notice it is "creating", "creates", etc.  This indicates to me an ongoing process.

But if you still believe man was really in the perfect image of God, then you must admit that man would not have sinned, because God does not sin.  Since man did sin, we know he could not have been in the perfect image of God. ie. Man was not completed in God's image yet.

One other thing to consider here.  It may mean something, or it may not mean much. I think it means something.  Look at this, I will give a synopsis of some verses in Gen 1:

Gen 1:3 Light Created
Gen 1:4 It was good

Gen 1:6-9 Water, land, sky separated
Gen 1:10 It was good

Gen 1:11 Plants appear
Gen 1:12 It was good

Gen 1:14-17 Lights (sun, moon, stars) created
Gen 1:18 It was good

Gen 1:20 Water creatures and birds created
Gen 1:21 It was good

Gen 1:24 Land creatures created
Gen 1:25 It was good

Gen 1:26 Man created "Let us make man in our image"
Hmm, it doesn't say "It was good" ... why not, was it not good yet?

Gen 1:31 all that he made, was very good


Now, why does it not say "It was good" immediately after man was created in verse 26, just like every other day when something good was created?  

Possibly because if it was a comparison with all that went before, man was superlative (everything was good until man, after which VERY GOOD is the assessment); I really don't know, but I suspect it was something like that.

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But still it does say all that was made was very good at the end.  But does "very good" = "perfect"?  I don't think so.  Unless you understand that "perfect" = "perfect for what they were designed for".

From its designation in other scriptures I think "perfect" is a reference to maturity in choices, right selections, good decisions.

Quote
For example would you call a scorpion or a poisonous snake or a mosquito or a shark "perfect"?  Yet these were also part of the whole creation that was "very good".  A mosquito is only "perfect" at its job of annoying you and biting you in the summer.  That is what a mosquito is "very good" for - annoying us humans and spreading disease!

I am not sure those little peskies were so pesky until after the flood. Remember, animals were not man's enemies until after Noah left the ark, and animals were given into man's hands for food.

Gen 9:1 And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.
2 And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth upon the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered. 3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.

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I think the fact that it doesn't say "it was good" yet for man, means that we aren't finished yet!  Thus part of the reason why we sinned...  

Ir certainly must be considered, but it must also be remembered, he did not pronounce ANYTHING "Very Good" until he had created Man.

Perplexing, isn't it?

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #234 on: March 23, 2010, 04:10:34 PM »
It still contrasts with "Choose you this day whom you will serve, as for me and my house, we will serve jehovah." If God was just teasing them, I begin to have a desparate problem. If he meant it, then YOU begin to have a desperate problem.

I've thought about that scripture too.  What if it has other possibiliites, such as "yes, we make choices - within the parameters God sets" - i.e., "we plan our way but God directs our steps?"

Good point!

I will share with you what is part of my problem, so you will at least understand why I seem stubborn to some on this board, and maybe rightly so.
All are stubborn here. Noone gets converted in 2 posts. Is that bad? Nope I don't think so.

Jabcat,
Now you mentioned it I take the liberty to add my thought. Remove at will. Free will  :laughing7:
It's possible if both are true. Consider one of those maze puzzles. You enter at A and must exit at the only possible exit point B.
Jesus is waiting at point B.
All other routes are dead ends.
We are born/created at entry point A. The funny thing is we can run around freely in that maze according to our own choices. But eventually we end at B. God designed the maze according to His will. He already knew the route we would take. So no suprises at all.


(just a weeee little bit wabbit :laughing7: - good post  :thumbsup:)
« Last Edit: March 24, 2010, 01:24:38 AM by jabcat »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #235 on: March 23, 2010, 04:15:23 PM »
I began life as a Catholic, and studied my way out of Catholicism at some slight cost to my ego. I then became a member of the Church of Christ, those pesky little "Only we have the truth" people. I was disfellowshipped from them over the issue of the equality of divinity and pre-existence of Jesus.

I was raised southern baptist, the price I paid for never giving myself over to that denomination is that my mother to this day has doubts about my salvation and it has nothing to do with UR.

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I now find that Gary Amirault's presentation of USAL is not all ther is to the issue, and it is almost overload to my mind. I will simply read this board,a nd not participate in any more posts if that becomes necessary, but read it I will, unless banned from so doing.

One mistake we can all make is trading one religious sect for another. I hangout at tentmaker alot for one reason and one reason only, I do not have to agree with Gary, follow him, or accept his teaching in order to be here and interact with everyone.   There are other places that center on a certain theological stance where if you post you had better be in lock step with the teachings of the website owner or your beliefs can be anything but UR.  This is not "every" other place, but I find this place for my online adventures very good in that nature.


Quote
When I study an issue, I do so to great depth, and believe with finality, only until I find I am wrong. I cannot afford to be flung about "with every wind of doctrine," so I seem stubborn to some, but I think it is time I take a stand SOMEWHERE. As I have indicated elsewhere, I .like what I am hearing, but am slow to change again, as I have done so too many times already.

Please , understand, and be patient.

We should be for the most part confident where we stand,  I was confident when I would teach about eternal torment, I am confident now,  there is a difference between confidence and stubborness.  You can be confident and open to change.  Stubborness is a label that other tend to use on me because I do not lay down at their opinions because they opened their glorious mouth.  But in reality stubborness is an attribute that is an issue between the person and God when it comes to whether it is a strength or a weakness in an particular area.

Keep on keepin on as far as I am concerned because I do understand.



Theo Book

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #236 on: March 23, 2010, 04:24:16 PM »
Thanks Bob.

The problem that remains for me to deal with, is, all the passages in the new covenant that seem to be saying something about eternal punishment, and some say they are all mistranslations. I have been sstudying that issue (mistranslations) for many years, and agree, it happens. But when it come to eternal salvation, I cannot depend upon a "maybe" response. Does that make sense?

Yes... I understand, because each one of us has had to deal with the same issue and deal with those lingering doubts.  We will probably never get a definitive answer about the word aionion because there are now and always will be "scholars" on both sides that disagree.  The hard fact though is that olam and aionion are applied to temporary things in scripture.  Therefore those words cannot intrinsically impart everlastingness to the noun they modify the way our word "everlasting" does, which could never be applied to something temporary, except by hyperbole (e.g. we've been waiting in line forever).

I have known that for years, because of how it is used in Micah 5:2. it is just that I never considered in with reference to the new covenant. I am now struggling with THAT and not having an easy time. On top of that, I offend some, and feel badly about that. I may wello do better to just read and contemplate and quit asking questions and responding to what I perceive to be insults. It might be my own immaturity showing through.


 The explanation "beyond the horizon" as given by the Hebrew scholars, is it least consistent with all of scripture, while the definition given in strongs "1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be 2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting" is simply not consistent with many examples in the LXX.

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If I did not desperately WANT to accept what you guys are saying, I would not spend so much time on this board, I would just settle for what I already think I know. But Instead, I believe there are many issues raised in Christianinty that are contrived, and eternal damnation may well be one of them. But so can USAL. I am not being "turned by every wind of doctrine" here, I am simply trying to get clear answers, without offense to ANYONE, and be given whatever time it takes to assimilate it into my understanding.

I would suggest that you just continue to study it and pray about it and take your time.   You can't believe something just because you want too or that's not a good idea at least.
Quote
From some of the responses my posts are getting, it might be better to just move on, yet I hesitate because I really do want to know. I just do not want to sit quietly by and aloloow someone to destroy my character with opinions that are expressed that have nothing to do with reality.

What to do...

I wouldn't let that keep you from continuing to discuss here.  We have the same issues amongst ourselvees at times.  As far as character goes, my view is that a person's character is ultimately revealed by and judged according to his own words, not by the words of anyone else.

[/quote]

Theo Book

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #237 on: March 23, 2010, 04:33:48 PM »
I am almost desparate to understand what it is you believe, because your belief seems to give you peace, while mine keeps me seeking for answers.
I believe you Theo. I'm sure you are a honest searcher. That good. But I think you started your thread in a wrong way.
Something like: "I, Theo, send by God am here to break down UR."
I'm sure some grabbed for their blood pressure medication after reading that  :laughing7:

That was actually a response to another thread title "Best arguments for Universal Salvation project" or something like that.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #238 on: March 23, 2010, 06:08:05 PM »
Are you familiar with Enoch, seventh from Adam? He "pleased God and was not, for God took him, for he pleased God." Enoch was translated, never having died, for the wages of sin is death.  It was not ordained that man would sin.

Gen 5:22 "And Enoch walked with God..." (This reminds me of Adam in the beginning)
Gen 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Enoch not only pleased God when he walked with God, he was also a prophet of God:
Jude 1:14 "And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,"
The Bible says that Enoch 'was not, for God took him' (Genesis 5:24), and that he was 'translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him' (Hebrews 11:5).

What actually happened to Enoch? Where did he go? Where is he now?

At this moment Enoch is dead and in his grave. We know this because it is clearly stated in Hebrews that Enoch died in faith, not having received the promises (Heb. 11:5, 13). And Genesis 5:23 plainly says that ALL THE DAYS of Enoch were 365 years.

On the other hand, God did deal with Enoch in a highly unique manner.

Enoch was one of those rare persons who realized the tremendous importance and profit in living God's way. From age 65 until his death, three hundred years later, Enoch "walked with God" (Genesis 5:22). And God is always particularly concerned for those who put His work first in their lives. He promises to protect them in times of severe trial:

But the salvation of the righteous is of the LORD: he is their strength in the time of trouble.(Ps. 37:39-40).

We are not informed of the conditions that made it necessary for God to "translate" (transfer, transport) Enoch from where he had been, but it is clear that God did this to save his life (Heb. 11:5). Enoch was not taken to the heaven of God's Throne — he was removed by God to a safer location on the earth. Conditions were so bad that Enoch would have perished at the hands of men — had not God intervened.

A similar time of severe trial and test is soon coming on this entire world — but worse than any the world has heretofore known (Matt. 24:21). Enoch knew the way to Divine protection – it was obedience to God!

1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #239 on: March 23, 2010, 06:08:17 PM »
Q. Where is Enoch and Elijah? Did God whisk them to heaven or did they die like all other humans?

(Submitted by: J. C.)

A. Many Bible readers have been mystified by the "disappearance" of these personages. Some believe they are evidence that those who die righteously go to heaven. Of course this is a big misconception, so what did happen to Enoch and Elijah?

Let's begin with Enoch. There are only two Scriptural passages that mention him by name. The first one is found in the book of Genesis, chapter 5 and verse 24. Let's see how the various Bible translations render this verse (Genesis 5:24):

"And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him. " (New King James Version)
"Then Enoch walked with God, and he was no longer here . . . " (New American Bible)

"And Enoch continued to please God and was not found, for God translated him" (Septuagint).

"lived close to God, and then disappeared . . . " (Moffet Translation)

Other translations render the verse "he disappeared for God took him".
 
 
Now lets take a look at the second scripture that mentions Enoch by name:

"By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had his testimony, that he pleased God. " (Hebrews 11:5)
The most significant aspect of these two Scriptures is the fact that neither of them say Enoch went to heaven.

The word rendered translated in the Greek, μετατίθημι, is Strong's Concordance #3346. It means to transfer, transport, exchange, change sides, carry over, change or remove.

We read in John 3:13 :

"And no man has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of man who is in heaven. "
Also Acts 2:34 :

"For David did not ascend into the heavens but he said himself: 'The Lord said to My Lord, 'Sit at My right hand, till I make your enemies Your footstool.' "
Both Enoch and David were long dead when Jesus and Peter made those statements. This is positive proof that neither Enoch nor David were taken to heaven, at least the "heaven" where God resides.

What about Elijah? Let's look at 2 Kings 2:1, 11 :

"And it came to pass, when the Lord was about to take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal. Then it happened, as they continued on and talked, that suddenly a chariot of fire appeared with horses of fire, and separated the two of them; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven " (2Kings 2:1, 11)
What few people realize is that the Bible discusses three types or kinds of heaven. Briefly, the first heaven is the atmosphere or sky that surrounds the earth, the second heaven is the physical universe that has stars, planets and so on, and the third type of heaven is where God's throne resides. For a fuller explanation of this topic please see our short article What are the three heavens?

Which heaven then is 2 Kings 2 verses 1 and 11, mentioned above, referring to?

The word translated heaven in 2Kings 1, 11 comes from the Hebrew word shamahym (שׁמה שׁמים, Strong's Concordance #8064). It is the plural form of the Hebrew word shameh which means to be lofty, the sky, the visible arch in which the clouds move. Its certainly not the heaven where God's throne is.

When Jesus (John 3:13) and Peter (Acts 2:34) state that no person has gone to heaven, the heaven they are referring to is the one containing God's throne. Therefore, when Hebrews 11:5 states that Enoch was "translated" or moved, it does not mean that he was somehow scooped up by God to live forever with him near his throne. It means that Enoch was moved or taken through the earth's atmosphere (sky), to a physical location on the earth the Bible does not name, so " . . . that he should not see death." This is the same thing that happened to Elijah.

God, in His wisdom, decided to physically transport Enoch and Elijah away from where they were originally located so that someone (or something) would not be able to physically kill them at a certain time. They continued to live the same kind of fleshly existence you or I do after they were moved until they died just like any other human on planet earth. This is in agreement with other scriptures that state all men (humans) must die a physical death:

"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: " (Hebrews 9:27, KJV)
 
 
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #240 on: March 23, 2010, 06:10:56 PM »
"WHERE are ENOCH and ELIJAH?"
 
  
Enoch was translated that he should not see death. Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. Yet the Bible reveals they are not in heaven today! WHERE ARE THEY? Here's the astounding truth.
Where Is Enoch?
   ENOCH was "translated." Where did he go? Was he immediately taken to heaven? NO! Because Jesus Himself said: "No man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man" (John 3:13). Here are Jesus' own words that no man, except Himself, had ascended into heaven!
   And how did He know? Why, He came from there!
   Then where is Enoch? Let's see what the Bible says.

Enoch Walked with God
   At the age of 65 Enoch had a son named Methuselah. "And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and he begat sons and daughters" (Genesis 5:22).
   Here was a man that PLEASED God, a man that WALKED WITH GOD.
   Enoch had to have faith, for in Hebrews 11:6 the Apostle said, "But without faith it is impossible to PLEASE Him: for he that cometh to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him." So Enoch walked with God. He obeyed God, and followed Him in His paths BY FAITH.
   No one can walk with God unless he is in agreement with the will of God and doing it. Amos the prophet said: "Can two walk together, except they be agreed?" (Amos 3:3.) So in his generation Enoch was the only recorded person who followed the ways of God—even though it possibly took him sixty-five years to learn to walk with God!
   But how long did Enoch walk with God? The Scripture says that he "walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years." So Enoch followed God's ways for three hundred years. Notice that Moses did not record that Enoch is still walking with God. The Scripture says that Enoch WALKED with God for three hundred years and not one year more! Then Enoch is not still walking with God! Why?
   Because "all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty-five years" (Gen. 5:23). All the days of Enoch were three hundred and sixty-five years. Not just part of his days, but all his days! If Enoch did not die—if he was changed to immortality—and thus continued to walk with God, then his days would have been more than three hundred and sixty-five years. But the Bible plainly says that ALL his days were just that many, and no more!
   This expression "all his days" is used in the same fifth chapter of Genesis about a dozen times and always it means that the person lived for that length of time ONLY "and he died." So Enoch lived NO MORE than three hundred and sixty-five years because "all his days were three hundred and sixty-five years." As he lived only for this length of time THEN HE MUST HAVE DIED!
   But what about his translation? Does that mean he didn't die?
   That's what most people carelessly assume without proof

What Really Happened at Enoch's Translation!
   Remember, Moses didn't write that Enoch did not die. Rather Moses wrote that "Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him" (Gen. 5:24). Paul records the same event by saying that he "was not found, because God had translated him" (Heb. 11:5).
   Thus the Scripture records that Enoch was not found because God took him, or "translated" him. THE BIBLE DOES NOT SAY THAT ENOCH WENT TO HEAVEN when he was translated. Instead it says he was not found.
   Certainly Enoch was "translated," but what does the word "translate" mean?
   Strange as it may seem, nowhere in all the Bible does "translate" mean to make immortal!
   The original Greek word for "translate" is metatithemi. According to Strong's Concordance it signifies: transfer, transport, exchange, change sides.
   The same Greek word is rendered "carried over" in Acts 7:16. Here we read that after Jacob DIED his body was "carried over"—transported, TRANSLATED—to Sychem WHERE HE WAS BURIED! That's what your Bible says! Jacob was transported or TRANSLATED to the place of burial!
   That is why Moses said that God TOOK Enoch. God removed—translated—him so that he was not found. God took Enoch and buried him!
   In Deuteronomy 34:6 we read also how God took Moses from the people after which he died and was buried by God. "But no man knoweth his sepulcher unto this day." God removed Moses—God translated him—and he was not found either!
   So Enoch was not made immortal after all! He was taken away and was not found. ALL his days were three hundred and sixty-five! That's as long as Enoch lived.
   Notice another proof that "translate" does not mean to make immortal. It is found in Col. 1:13: the Father "hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath TRANSLATED us into the kingdom of His dear Son." Here the Bible says that Christians are already translated—but Christians still die! We are not immortal bodies, but mortal flesh and blood. Although we were once part of the darkness of this world, now we are TRANSLATED, removed from darkness into the light of the kingdom of God.

Didn't Receive the Promise
   Enoch is included by Paul (in Hebrews 11) among the fathers who obtained a good report through faith; but "ALL these, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise" (Heb. 11:39). What promise? The "hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began (Titus 1:2).
   So Enoch therefore is one of "ALL THESE" who have not yet obtained the promise of eternal life and inheritance. Enoch and all the worthies of old will receive the promise of eternal life at the return of Christ, the same time Christians obtain it (Heb. 11:40). That is yet future!
   Since Enoch has not yet inherited eternal life he must be dead! This is exactly what Paul writes in Heb. 11:13! Paul says Enoch DIED! Notice it! "These ALL died in faith, not having received what was promised:' Who were these "ALL"?
   Paul tells us: Abel, ENOCH, Noah, and the patriarchs and their wives. Hebrews 11:1-12 lists those who had faith and Enoch is included among them. Then in verse 13 Paul proved that they had not inherited the promises by saying: "These ALL [including Enoch] died in faith?'
   But what about Paul's saying that Enoch "should not see death"?

Which Death Did Enoch Escape?
   Enoch lived only three hundred sixty-five years. Then what could Paul possibly have meant by saying: "By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found because God had translated him?" This verse nowhere says that Enoch did not die. Rather, it says that Enoch "should not see death." But what does it mean?
   Remember, there is more than one death mentioned in the Bible. There is a first death, and there is a second death (Rev. 20:6). Which death did Paul mean?
   The first death is appointed unto men (Heb. 9:27). That death cannot be humanly evaded. It is inevitable. That death Enoch died, as we have already proved.
   But Paul was not writing about that death. The phrase "should not see" is in the conditional tense of the verb, having reference to a future event. It is not in the past tense, that he "did not see" death—but that he "should not see death." So this death that Enoch escaped by being translated is one that he can escape in the future ON CERTAIN CONDITIONS!
   Did Jesus ever speak of a death that might be escaped? He certainly did! In John 8:51 Jesus said, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my sayings, he shall never see death"—shall never see— that is, suffer—the second death! And again in John 11:26, "Whoso liveth and believeth in me shall never die"—or "shall not die forever."
   This death is one that can be escaped on condition that men keep the sayings of Jesus and believe Him. This death is not the first death, because Christians who keep Jesus' sayings die this first death. Then the death which Enoch should escape must be the second death which will NEVER TOUCH THOSE WHO ARE IN THE FIRST RESURRECTION (Rev. 20:6). And Enoch will be in the first resurrection because he met the conditions!
   Enoch had faith. He believed God and walked with God, obeying Him. In keeping the sayings of God, Enoch kept the sayings of Jesus too; because Jesus did not speak of Himself, but spoke what the Father commanded Him (John 14:10).
   Thus Enoch met the conditions so that he should not see death. The second death shall never touch Enoch, because of his faith and obedience.

Two Translations
   Now we can understand Hebrews 11:5: "By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him; for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God."
   This verse plainly mentions two translations.
   Examining this verse fact by fact, we notice that Enoch had faith and was translated. This translation—removal, transference—was on condition of FAITH. NOW what translation mentioned in the Bible is on condition of faith? Why, the one we read about in Colossians 1:13. The Father "hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of His dear Son."
   This is a FIGURATIVE translation—a FIGURATIVE removal or transference from the spiritual darkness of this world to the light of the family or kingdom of God and Christ. In verse 10 Paul shows that to abide in this kingdom we must "walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing." This is exactly what Enoch did. He walked with God, and pleased God.
   Then Enoch, the same as Christians, was delivered from the power of sin and darkness in which he had been living for sixty-five years. He was removed (translated) from the ways of the world and lived three hundred years according to God's ways so that he might inherit eternal life at Christ's return, and should not suffer the second death.
   By faith Enoch was separated—removed or translated—from the world, the same as Christians who are not to be a part of the world, although living in the world.
   Not only was Enoch FIGURATIVELY taken from the society of his day, but he was also LITERALLY removed—translated—so that he was not found.
   God took him physically away from the people, just as He later took Moses. And God buried each so well that neither has ever been found since! Enoch had completed this present normal life. "All his days were three hundred sixty-five years." This was the second translation—a literal removal at death.
   God gave Enoch this sign of physical removal as a type for all those who should later follow Enoch's example of faith. He was taken physically from the people just as Christians are to be spiritually removed from the ways of the world. The physical translation or carrying away of Enoch was also a sign to him from God that his faith had been accepted.
   Like every true saint, Enoch is awaiting the hope of the resurrection and the return of Christ (Jude 14, 15).

Did Elijah Go To Heaven?
   You have been told that Elijah went to heaven. Yet over 900 years after Elijah was taken up by a whirlwind Jesus Himself said. "NO MAN ascended up to heaven, but He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man!" (John 3:13.)
   Is this a Bible contradiction? Did Elijah really ascend to the heaven where God's throne is—even though Jesus said he didn't?
   If Elijah is not in heaven today, then where did Elijah go?

Which Heaven?
   There are three heavens mentioned in the Bible, not just one! And if, as Jesus said, no man, which included Elijah, had ever ascended to the heaven where He came from, then the heaven into which Elijah was taken was a different heaven!
   Which one was it?
   The third heaven is the heaven of God's throne, where Jesus is today. Jesus, being the High Priest of God, is the only one who has the right to be in that heaven with the Father.
   Notice why! Hebrews 8:1-5 explains that the original earthly tabernacle under the Old Covenant, with its most holy place, or compartment, was the type of the throne of God in heaven. Only the high priest—type of Christ as High Priest now—was allowed to enter!
   The second heaven represents the expanse of this great universe—the space where we find the sun, moon, stars, comets and planets. How often do we find the Psalmist admiring the "heavens, the work of Thy fingers, the moon, and the stars, which Thou has ordained" (Psalm 8:3; Genesis 1:15-17).
   Beside the heaven of the stars, we find that the atmosphere, the air that surrounds this world, is also called heaven. Birds fly "in the midst of heaven"— certainly not God's throne in heaven—for we read in Genesis 1:20 of "fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven." In blessing Jacob, Isaac said; "God give thee of the dew of heaven:' and Moses joyed that the "heavens shall drop down dew" (see Gen. 27:28 and Deut. 33:28).
   This first heaven, from which dew comes, means the atmosphere, where the clouds and the wind roam. Everyone of us is right now breathing the air of heaven!
   Since Elijah could not have gone to the heaven of God's throne, then to which heaven did he go?—for the Scripture reads: "and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven" (II Kings 2:1, 11).
   The answer ought already be quite obvious! Elijah "went up by a whirlwind into heaven"—not to the heaven of God's throne, but into this earth's atmosphere, the first heaven.
   There could be no whirlwind in any other place but in the atmosphere surrounding this earth—in the first heaven, in which the birds fly. You certainly have seen the great lifting power of a whirlwind, haven't you?

Why Taken Up?
   What was the reason for this unusual act of God? Why did He take Elijah up into the atmosphere? Was it to make him immortal? No! The Scripture says no word about that! The ancient prophets—including Elijah—did not receive any promise of immortality prior to or apart from us. Notice it in Hebrews 11:13 and 39: "These all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise!" And we shall not receive it until Christ returns (Heb. 11:40).
   So Elijah was not to be made immortal—for that would give him pre-eminence above Jesus. But what does the Bible reveal as the reason for his removal? II Kings 2:3 and 5 has the answer.
   Notice now what the sons of the prophets said to Elisha: "Knowest thou that the Lord will take away thy master from thy head today?" Or as the Smith and Goodspeed translation has it, "Do you know that today the Lord is about to take away your master from being your leader?" Christ is the head of the Church today as Elijah was the head or leader of the sons or disciples of the prophets in that day. God had sent Elijah as His prophet to wicked king Ahab and to his son Ahaziah. Now God wanted Elisha to direct His work, as Ahaziah the king had died (II Kings 1-18) and a new king was ruling.
   So what did God do?
   He could not allow Elijah to be among the people with Elisha directing the work now. That would have been the same as disqualifying him! God never takes an office from a man when that man has been performing his duty well, the only thing God could do would have been to remove Elijah so that another would fulfill the office.
   This God did do. When he was taken up, Elijah's mantle dropped from him and Elisha picked it up. See II Kings 2:12-15.
   And what did the "mantle" mean?
   In Clarke's Commentary we note that it was "worn by prophets and priests as the simple insignia of their office." (Vol. 2, page 484.)
   The purpose of God in removing Elijah was to replace him with another man who would occupy Elijah's office in Israel for another fifty years. This work had to start under a new king, for Ahaziah had just died. And Elijah was already aging. So as not to disqualify Elijah in the sight of the people, God took him away from the sons of the prophets and the people, allowing the mantle which signified the office of Elijah to drop into the hands of Elisha. Thus God preserved the name and office of His prophet.

How Taken Up?
   Having crossed Jordan near Jericho, Elijah was taken up by a whirlwind in what appeared to be a chariot and horses of fire. The violent motion of the wind pulled the mantle off the prophet as he was seen to ascend into the sky. You probably remember reading the promise of Elijah that Elisha would have a double portion of the Spirit of God if he would be allowed by God to see Elijah taken up (II Kings 2:9). All this meant that Elisha was to be the leader, the new head of the sons of the prophets.
   Having ascended into the air, Elijah was borne away out of the sight of the new leader—beyond the horizon. But—

Where Did Elijah Go?
   This has been the perplexing problem to so many!
   He did not ascend to the throne of God. Jesus said so! Yet he couldn't remain in the air forever.
   And God did not say that Elijah was to die at that time. If he were, Elisha could have assumed his new office without the removal of Elijah, for we know that Elisha died in office after fulfilling his duty (II Kings 13:14).
   The sons of the prophets who knew that their master was to be removed also that Elijah was not to die then. That is why they were fearful that the Spirit of God might have allowed him to drop "upon some mountain, or into some valley" (II Kings 2:16). Elisha knew that God would preserve Elijah from falling, but at their insistence he permitted men to go in search for him—to no avail.
   Elijah was gone!
   And where to? Certainly the whirlwind used by God could not take him beyond the earth's atmosphere. Neither does the Bible account leave Elijah in the air!

The Answer Unfolds
   Let us notice the next few years and see what further events the Scripture records. The new king of Israel was another son of Ahab, Jehoram, or Joram as he is sometimes called. The beginning of his reign marked the year of the removal of Elijah (II Kings 1:18 and 3:1). During this king's reign Elisha was the recognized prophet of God (II Kings 3:11). In the fifth year of Joram king of Israel, the son of the king of Judah began to reign along with his father in Judah (II Kings 8:16). His name also was Jehoram. The first thing he did to establish his kingdom rule was to put his relatives to the sword lest they should claim the throne from him (11 Chronicles 2 1:4). For nearly six years he followed the ways of the nations about him and did evil in God's sight.
   Almost ten years had now expired since Elijah was taken from the people. But what do you think was about to happen?
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #241 on: March 23, 2010, 06:11:20 PM »
--- continued
A Letter Comes from Elijah!
   Yes, after this wicked rule by the Jewish king, God chose Elijah to write a letter and have it sent to the king!
   The contents of the letter are found in II Chronicles 21:12-15. In part it reads: "Because thou hast not walked in the ways of. . . thy father . - . but hast walked in the way of the kings of Israel.. . and also hast slain thy brethren of thy father's house, which were better than thyself. . . thou shalt have great sickness by disease."
   From the wording of the letter, it is clear that Elijah wrote it after these events had occurred, for he speaks of them as past events, and of the disease as future. Two years after the king became diseased the king died—having reigned only eight short years (II Chronicles 21:18-20).
   This proves that the letter was written about ten years after Elijah had been taken to another location by the whirlwind.
   God used Elijah to convey the message because he was the prophet of God in days of the present king's father—and the son was not going in the ways of his obedient father, Jehosophat.
   The letter he had others deliver was recognized as his—proving that he was known to be alive someplace. Just how much longer he lived, the Bible does not reveal. But in that "it is appointed unto men once to die"—Elijah must have died somewhat later. See Hebrews 9:27. All human beings born of Adam, and that includes Elijah, must die—for we read: "In Adam ALL DIE" (I Corinthians 15:22). Elijah was a man "subject to like passions as we are" (James 5:17)...subject to human nature and death! The prophet, being mortal flesh as we are, could not have lived much beyond his seventy years.
   To suppose that God gave him the power of an endless life of nearly three thousand years already is to read into the Bible what is not there! He was mortal, subject to death, and after being lifted into the atmospheric heavens, spent the remaining years of his separate life at some little-known location on the earth, living as every human being, before he naturally died.

Was Elijah on the Mount?
   The only remaining texts that puzzle people are those relative to the appearance of Moses and Elijah on the Mount of Transfiguration with Jesus. The record of the event is found in Matthew 17:1-9; Mark 9:2-10; Luke 9:28-36.
   Leaving the mountain, Jesus told his disciples: "Tell the vision to no man (Mat. 17:9)." A vision is not a material reality but a supernatural picture observed by the eyes.
   Moses died, and was buried (Deut. 34:5-6). Both he and Elijah were still dead in their graves, but in vision both they and Jesus were seen in the glory of the resurrection—an event to which Moses and Elijah have not yet attained (Heb. 11:39). The vision was granted the disciples after Jesus had spoken of the glory of immortality in the coming kingdom.
   How plain the Bible is! Elijah is dead in the dust of the earth awaiting the resurrection of the just. Elijah, some years after being removed in the whirlwind, went to the grave, but will rise again to live forevermore!
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline sheila

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #242 on: March 23, 2010, 06:40:50 PM »
   Let us make make man in our image....

   and then He says..

  ..I WILL NOT GIVE MY GLORY UNTO ANOTHER[a mere image]

   now Jesus, though a son of God, when He found himself in

the fashion of a man...humbled himself as a servant

  Now we know that a servant does not remain in the household

 forever, but a son does.

  we also know...that He shows mercy unto a son that has

served him....and while young you can not tell a servant from a son.

  also,it is written, in the place were it was said, 'not my son, it

will be said 'you are the sons of the living God."


   So, the sons of God were subjected to vanity..when they took

on the body[flesh] to serve the Father's purpose. Which was to

educate His children that they should have an exercize in good

  and evil. This exercize provides an education like you wouldn't

beleive. It also adds the fruit of mercy and humility and

compassion...to the spirit of Love..for He demands ALL the fruit


   This perfection comes from obediance through suffering..

  evil is the tool that works the 'suffering' aspect. Evil is

 NOT OF GOD...He made a tool to serve as a negative in this

educating expierence.It is NOT of Him...and He does not give

His Glory unto another.  It serves Him in this function.

  Compassion would not be developed in His children, if they

 had never expierenced this evil, nor mercy...which is a distinct

quality of Love, of which HE IS.

   He sent His children down and placed them in a clay vessel

 that is corruptible..in that both positive and negative forces

can manifest and influence this flesh/vessel. Thus

the 'nakedness' of Adam and Eve that was so very very

interesting to the adversarial negative evil tool[ as God's

children we will be clothed in the incorruptible garment..and this

 evil tool can not and does not have an affect on that vessel

   Thus He set the stage for the exercize to take place.

   When Satan, adversarial spirit/negative tool was in heaven

 he dwelt in an uncorruptible garment. The evil substance in him

 could not express itself in the vessels of the angels or himself.


  Thus seeing Adam and Eve's 'nakedness' was very alluring to

him, to manifest outwardly the impelling nature of his

substance.  Jesus told us this in the parable of the feild sowed

with the good seed by the Father, and an enemy came in at

night and sowed tares. The feild is our clay vessel/flesh, the

seed is the seed of His children,due to bear fruit unto heaven,

 the tares are the evil substance fruit that is due to be

destroyed at harvest.

   All the children of God have served Father's purpose in this

exercize, whether He used  their flesh for honorable or

dishonarable examples, in this good evil exercize.

   There was a time when the evil tares had so increased in the

earth that man's thoughts were only evil all the time...He

cleared the feild,so to say, for a better balance of good evil

for His teaching purposes. He just about repented of the set up

at that time[placing us in corruptible vessels as man] So

decided He would NEVER AGAIN LET IT GET SO BAD OUT OF

BALANCE[thus the rainbow covenant] Also note that all

who perished in the flood were raised to heaven and delivered

from the great evil that was running rampant on earth at that

time.

   Now, the mystery of godliness and godlessness and the man

 of sin is being revealed at this end time.

   godliness is but of the spiritual DNA of God and it is eternal

 and immortal.  Godlessness is the temporal substance of the

negative/adversarial teaching tool. The man of sin or son of

perdition...is man's fleshly body inhabited by the adversarial

 negative teaching substance[ thus Judas picturing the son of

perdition when satan entered him]

   Now, when satan and others were in heaven..they dwelt in

 incorruptible vessels, and satan mistakenly thought he was a

son of God,also.But just had a different nature. That very nature

coveted Father's throne...but was unable[not strong enough]

 to work it's evil on the incorruptible vessels. Only by leaving his proper dwelling place[incorruptible garment in heaven]
could he work that evil that was  his nature.

   He was called the dragon up there....the original serpent

 when he entered the serpent in the garden to seduce Eve..

 and the wild beast when he entered the vessels of the animals

[on account of this the animals became wild/ferocious/devouring

 one another] Finally, he is known as the man of sin, or son of

perdition when he enters man's vessel or garment.

   God's sons, His progency do not sin...it is the substance of the

negative contrast in their vessels[sin in flesh] that works sin

  through deceiving the woman that adversary led her into

an act of disobediance that allowed him entry into her vessel

   Sin is the flesh is condemend[eat of the tokogae] and bring

death to the vessel of man[flesh and blood does not inherit the

kingdom of heaven] However the promised seed does..it falls to

the earth and dies then it bears fruit unto heaven, seperated

from chaff[corruptible flesh and tares surrounding it[sin in flesh]

it is gathered into the barn of heaven

   Now, just as all men have bore the image of the corruptible

[as servants that do not remain in the household of God/ sons of perdition that did not keep their proper dwelling place/sons of disobediance]

so too, all men will bear the image of the incorruptible son from heaven,who fell to earth and died in order to bear fruit unto heaven[progency of GOD]

2 Thess 2;7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so until he is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow, with the breath of His mouth, and destroy by the splendour of His coming

   Jesus told us to judge nothing before the appointed time,
and that there is nothing hidden that would not be revealed.
[many have judged by appearance and rendered unrighteous judgement]

  1Peter 1;3  Praise be to the God and Father of OUR LORD JESUS Christ! IN his great mercy he has GIVEN US NEW BIRTH into a living hope,through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that can never perish,spoil or fade- KEPT IN HEAVEN FOR YOU, who through faith are sheilded by God's power until THE COMING OF THE SALVATION THAT IS READY TO BE REVEALED IN THE LAST TIME

  Roman 8;18  I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory THAT WILL BE REVEALED IN US.

The Creation Waits in Eager Expectation for the SONS OF GOD TO BE REVEALED

v 29  FOR THOSE GOD FORKNEW HE ALSO PREDESTINED TO BE CONFORMED TO THE LIKENESS OF HIS SON,THAT HE MIGHT BE THE FIRSTBORN OF MANY BROTHERS

  Now, in all these things we are more than conquerors,

THROUGH HIM WHO LOVED US. For I AM CONVINCED THAT

NEITHER DEATH NOR LIFE,NEITHER ANGELS NOR DEMONS,

NEITHER THE PRESENT NOR THE FUTURE,NOR ANY POWERS

NEITHER HEIGHT NOR DEPTH,NOR ANYTHING ELSE

IN ALL CREATION....WILL BE ABLE TO SEPERATE US

FROM THE LOVE OF GOD THAT IS IN CHRIST JESUS OUR LORD

Also it is written that it is the Glory of God to conceal a matter,
and the glory of kings to reveal a matter

  Rev 21;24  The nations will walk by it's light, and the kings[kings and preists] of the earth will bring their splendour into it
....the glory and honour of the nations will be brought into it
Nothing impure[sin/adversary] will ever enter into it[incorruptible]

    

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #243 on: March 23, 2010, 07:16:26 PM »
Wonderful Sheila, just wonderful, thank you.

Offline sheila

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #244 on: March 23, 2010, 07:20:18 PM »


   HE IS WONDERFUL! :bgdance:

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #245 on: March 23, 2010, 07:27:55 PM »
Theo said this to what I took GREAT OFFENSE:

"I guess I was right then, you folks don't believe in etrnity, nor an eternal God."

And THAT, Paul, was hardly respectful to me or our Lord Jesus Christ Savior of All Mankind.


The thing is, Theo, we should all search for the Truth and the Spirit will lead us to Himself, but why come here and contentiously argue with us about it?
The spirit you have brought is not righteousness, peace and joy.
This "searching" soul you now profess has suddenly appeared and was not the one we first met.
The fact that you have had an eleven-year rift with Gary that you've shunted upon this fellowship also portents your true intention.

Offline willieH

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #246 on: March 24, 2010, 01:11:24 AM »
willieH: Hi Theo...  :cloud9:

What would have happened if Eve sinned, and Adam did not? I do not know, but I believe God had a solution for that eventuallity.

There was/is NO "eventuality", Theo!  :mshock:  So what "solution" is needed for that which NEVER existed?  :msealed:

"What if" (fictional) imaginations are NOT what occurs!  Any such IMAGINATION is accomplishing nothing, but IS placing a useless and distracting stumbling block before that which actually DID occur!

Can't speak for anyone else, ...but I do not proceed in the dealings of life upon such fictional premises or thoughts... I deal with LIFE in its REALITY...

"What if" I didn't cut my finger (which I did), then I wouldn't need a BAND-AID (which I DO)  :dontknow:  The thought of "What if" concerning my cut is TOTALLY IRRELEVANT to the REALITY that the CUT exists... and the "What if" DOES NOT.  Which makes the "what if" a waste of time concerning my cut, ...which is REALITY.  :dontknow:

GOD does not need to come up with "solutions" for scenarios that do not exist -- such as "what if Eve sinned but Adam didn't"...  He is not a problem solver...

He is the DESIGNER of ALL THINGS...  Within each DESIGN which comes forth from Him, is found all the necessary parts of that which is DESIGNED.

Such as...

Question:  "What if" there was no "UP"... Would God have to have come up with a "solution" so that "DOWN" could still exist?  :dunno:

Answer:  NO! ...because "UP" ...DOES exist. :nod:  ...And this proposed, "what if" ...concerning the non-existence of "UP", Never has and NEVER WILL exist!

There is no need to IMAGINE what could have occured because such "imagination" is BASED in Fictional (NON-EXISTENT) premises... which have NO BASIS in REALITY (which IS EXISTENT)...

"what if" the sky falls... Or "what if" there was no water... Or "what if" inside was outside...  Or "what if" there was a tooth fairy...

Well the facts are: the sky cannot fall, there IS water, inside IS not outside, and there IS no tooth fairy...

And for every other possibility that could happen. He did not design us TO sin


This contention is also, not based in the TRUTH... for the TRUTH notes that MAN DID SIN, and that GOD concluded ALL to enter into such...

Paul said this:

Rom 14:23 ...whatsoever is NOT of FAITH, ...IS... SIN

After having said this:

Rom 11:32 ...for GOD hath CONCLUDED them ALL in UNBELIEF [without FAITH], that He might have MERCY upon ALL

He designed us to be inventive, and responsible, and imitate him. some of us actually accomplish that at some point in our life, and rejoice. Some never do.

This is also misled thinking... for CHRIST is the AUTHOR (generator) and FINISHER (accomplisher) of our FAITH -- Heb 12:3

"WE" do not "accomplish" anything.  Those who percieve that THEY "accomplish",  speak accordingly:

Matt 7:22 --  MANY will SAY to Me in that day:  Lord, Lord, have ...WE... not prophesied in Thy Name? and in Thy Name have cast out devils? and in Thy Name DONE ...MANY wonderful WORKS?

To which CHRIST SAYS:

Matt 7:23 -- and then will I profess unto THEM -- I never knew YOU, depart from Me, ye that WORK INIQUITY.

They have proclaimed to CHRIST, themselves as the DOERS (accomplishers) of wonderful works, instead of laying those works at the foot of He who actually DID THEM, ...IN them.

Quote
Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

God has already declared everything that will happen - the end from the beginning, including the things that are not yet done.  He not only knows the future, He declares what it will be.  God's counsel shall be done and He will do his pleasure, which includes His desire and will to save all men (1 Tim 2:4).

THOSE are the premises that are making me rethink my position. If it is compatible with everything else, I must adopt it as my conscience must be solvent in this matter.

Praise the Lord, Theo, ...I  :HeartThrob: fully, commend you for these words...   :handshake:

Quote
If you continue to believe this nonsense that God didn't know if we would sin or not, then you will not be able to understand and appreciate the truth of UR, nor will you understand God's power in the matter at hand.

Please I hope you really consider your belief here, and how it makes God appear, and how it contrasts with what scripture actually says, being that God IS all-knowing, and IS in control, and WORKS all things according to HIS will. 

God has no need for a plan B my friend.

I will continue more in the next post as this is getting too long...

It still contrasts with "Choose you this day whom you will serve, as for me and my house, we will serve jehovah." If God was just teasing them, I begin to have a desparate problem. If he meant it, then YOU begin to have a desperate problem.

Not if you look at -- Eph 1:11 -- which SAYS -- that GOD WORKS ALL THINGS according the the counsel (advising) of HIS OWN WILL...

ALL things means... ALL THINGS including --->  Sin (concluding us in Unbelief)/Repentence (delivering us from that which HE concluded)

Jer 29:14 --  and I will be found of you saith YHVH, and ...I... will turn away YOUR CAPTIVITY, ...and ...I... will gather YOU from ALL the NATIONS, and from ALL the PLACES [such as SIN] whither ...I... have driven YOU, saith YHVH, and ...I... will bring YOU ...again... into the place whence ...I... caused YOU to be CARRIED AWAY CAPTIVE.

It's right there in the WORD, Theo... all YOU have to do is BELIEVE what the WORD SAYS...  :cloud9:

YHVH decides WHO shall "choose" to serve Him, and WHO shall not:

Rom 9:17 -- For the SCRIPTURE SAITH unto Pharaoh... Even for this SAME PURPOSE have ...I... raised THEE up, that ...I... might show MY POWER ...in THEE... and that My Name be DECLARED throughout the earth...

Pharaoh DID (chose) as was ORDAINED by YHVH... that he DO (choose)... and IN that process was YHVH glorified by the "misdeeds" of Pharaoh, ...which stood HELPLESS before the POWER of the DELIVERANCE of YHVH.

Rom 9:11 -- for the children being NOT YET BORN, neither having DONE, ...good OR evil, that the PURPOSE of GOD according to ELECTION might stand... NOT of WORKS, but of HIM that CALLETH...


...willieH  :HeartThrob:

Online jabcat

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #247 on: March 24, 2010, 01:35:58 AM »
Theo said this to what I took GREAT OFFENSE:

"I guess I was right then, you folks don't believe in etrnity, nor an eternal God."

And THAT, Paul, was hardly respectful to me or our Lord Jesus Christ Savior of All Mankind.


The thing is, Theo, we should all search for the Truth and the Spirit will lead us to Himself, but why come here and contentiously argue with us about it?
The spirit you have brought is not righteousness, peace and joy.
This "searching" soul you now profess has suddenly appeared and was not the one we first met.
The fact that you have had an eleven-year rift with Gary that you've shunted upon this fellowship also portents your true intention.

I'd suggest we see how it goes, David.  As long as the forum guidelines are followed, we should be OK.  We can all go ahead and discuss, point out, disagree, etc., as long as it's respectful.  We probably didn't get off to the best start, but maybe Theo is reconsidering some things, as Paul and WW's recent interactions have suggested.  Time tells  :bigGrin:.   We might yet be able to recover from "I'm here to break down UR", and then a collective "Oh no you're not, buddy!".   :laughing7:    
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #248 on: March 24, 2010, 01:44:00 AM »

"Oh no you're not, buddy!".


That line should be put on the Tentmakers home page!
Classic and bravo, James!
 :clapping:

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #249 on: March 24, 2010, 01:48:54 AM »
willieH: Hi Theo...  :cloud9:

What would have happened if Eve sinned, and Adam did not? I do not know, but I believe God had a solution for that eventuallity.

There was/is NO "eventuality", Theo!  :mshock:  So what "solution" is needed for that which NEVER existed?  :msealed:

"What if" (fictional) imaginations are NOT what occurs!  Any such IMAGINATION is accomplishing nothing, but IS placing a useless and distracting stumbling block before that which actually DID occur!

Can't speak for anyone else, ...but I do not proceed in the dealings of life upon such fictional premises or thoughts... I deal with LIFE in its REALITY...

"What if" I didn't cut my finger (which I did), then I wouldn't need a BAND-AID (which I DO)  :dontknow:  The thought of "What if" concerning my cut is TOTALLY IRRELEVANT to the REALITY that the CUT exists... and the "What if" DOES NOT.  Which makes the "what if" a waste of time concerning my cut, ...which is REALITY.  :dontknow:

GOD does not need to come up with "solutions" for scenarios that do not exist -- such as "what if Eve sinned but Adam didn't"...  He is not a problem solver...

He is the DESIGNER of ALL THINGS...  Within each DESIGN which comes forth from Him, is found all the necessary parts of that which is DESIGNED.

Such as...

Question:  "What if" there was no "UP"... Would God have to have come up with a "solution" so that "DOWN" could still exist?  :dunno:

Answer:  NO! ...because "UP" ...DOES exist. :nod:  ...And this proposed, "what if" ...concerning the non-existence of "UP", Never has and NEVER WILL exist!

There is no need to IMAGINE what could have occured because such "imagination" is BASED in Fictional (NON-EXISTENT) premises... which have NO BASIS in REALITY (which IS EXISTENT)...

"what if" the sky falls... Or "what if" there was no water... Or "what if" inside was outside...  Or "what if" there was a tooth fairy...

Well the facts are: the sky cannot fall, there IS water, inside IS not outside, and there IS no tooth fairy...

And for every other possibility that could happen. He did not design us TO sin


This contention is also, not based in the TRUTH... for the TRUTH notes that MAN DID SIN, and that GOD concluded ALL to enter into such...

Paul said this:

Rom 14:23 ...whatsoever is NOT of FAITH, ...IS... SIN

After having said this:

Rom 11:32 ...for GOD hath CONCLUDED them ALL in UNBELIEF [without FAITH], that He might have MERCY upon ALL

He designed us to be inventive, and responsible, and imitate him. some of us actually accomplish that at some point in our life, and rejoice. Some never do.

This is also misled thinking... for CHRIST is the AUTHOR (generator) and FINISHER (accomplisher) of our FAITH -- Heb 12:3

"WE" do not "accomplish" anything.  Those who percieve that THEY "accomplish",  speak accordingly:

Matt 7:22 --  MANY will SAY to Me in that day:  Lord, Lord, have ...WE... not prophesied in Thy Name? and in Thy Name have cast out devils? and in Thy Name DONE ...MANY wonderful WORKS?

To which CHRIST SAYS:

Matt 7:23 -- and then will I profess unto THEM -- I never knew YOU, depart from Me, ye that WORK INIQUITY.

They have proclaimed to CHRIST, themselves as the DOERS (accomplishers) of wonderful works, instead of laying those works at the foot of He who actually DID THEM, ...IN them.

Quote
Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

God has already declared everything that will happen - the end from the beginning, including the things that are not yet done.  He not only knows the future, He declares what it will be.  God's counsel shall be done and He will do his pleasure, which includes His desire and will to save all men (1 Tim 2:4).

THOSE are the premises that are making me rethink my position. If it is compatible with everything else, I must adopt it as my conscience must be solvent in this matter.

Praise the Lord, Theo, ...I  :HeartThrob: fully, commend you for these words...   :handshake:

Quote
If you continue to believe this nonsense that God didn't know if we would sin or not, then you will not be able to understand and appreciate the truth of UR, nor will you understand God's power in the matter at hand.

Please I hope you really consider your belief here, and how it makes God appear, and how it contrasts with what scripture actually says, being that God IS all-knowing, and IS in control, and WORKS all things according to HIS will. 

God has no need for a plan B my friend.

I will continue more in the next post as this is getting too long...

It still contrasts with "Choose you this day whom you will serve, as for me and my house, we will serve jehovah." If God was just teasing them, I begin to have a desparate problem. If he meant it, then YOU begin to have a desperate problem.

Not if you look at -- Eph 1:11 -- which SAYS -- that GOD WORKS ALL THINGS according the the counsel (advising) of HIS OWN WILL...

ALL things means... ALL THINGS including --->  Sin (concluding us in Unbelief)/Repentence (delivering us from that which HE concluded)

Jer 29:14 --  and I will be found of you saith YHVH, and ...I... will turn away YOUR CAPTIVITY, ...and ...I... will gather YOU from ALL the NATIONS, and from ALL the PLACES [such as SIN] whither ...I... have driven YOU, saith YHVH, and ...I... will bring YOU ...again... into the place whence ...I... caused YOU to be CARRIED AWAY CAPTIVE.

It's right there in the WORD, Theo... all YOU have to do is BELIEVE what the WORD SAYS...  :cloud9:

YHVH decides WHO shall "choose" to serve Him, and WHO shall not:

Rom 9:17 -- For the SCRIPTURE SAITH unto Pharaoh... Even for this SAME PURPOSE have ...I... raised THEE up, that ...I... might show MY POWER ...in THEE... and that My Name be DECLARED throughout the earth...

Pharaoh DID (chose) as was ORDAINED by YHVH... that he DO (choose)... and IN that process was YHVH glorified by the "misdeeds" of Pharaoh, ...which stood HELPLESS before the POWER of the DELIVERANCE of YHVH.

Rom 9:11 -- for the children being NOT YET BORN, neither having DONE, ...good OR evil, that the PURPOSE of GOD according to ELECTION might stand... NOT of WORKS, but of HIM that CALLETH...


...willieH  :HeartThrob:

I hate to be the bringer of such news WH, but you're starting to make sense.

Clear up a thing for me if you will.
Scripture says "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish..." which is used as a proof text about Usal. But the scripture does not stop at that point, but continues on to read "but that all should come to repentance." [II Pet 3:9]

What IS the will of God in this verse? That none perish? Nope. That all come to repentance. What say you?