I have prepared a sort of questionaire to Universalists - Answer me please;
... questions 1-6 ...
(legoman) Yes these were all God's will.
Are you serious? Perhaps you read a different translation than I. You really think it was God's will that men sin? Please show me THAT scripture.
If it was not God's will that men sin, then man's will is more powerful than God's.
You ask for the scripture, it has already been given to you, but here they are again:
Romans 11:32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
Romans 8:20 For the creature (creation) was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
What is sin but disobedience of God's commands? Yet God binds all men to disobedience. Pride (vanity) is sin. Yet God has subjected all creation (men) to vanity.
Now if sin is simply a product of "free will", why is it that no man in all of history (except one - Christ), has ever used their free will to NOT SIN? Why are all men sinners? No one can choose to NOT be a sinner. If it was not, as you say, God's intention that we sin, and ALSO no one can choose to NOT be a sinner, then who is responsible for us being sinners? Adam? Satan? Are Adam & Satan's will more powerful than God's will?
You have now contradicted what you said earlier; "Yes, these were all God's will." Now you say "God does not will something to happen that will frustrate his will." Which is it?
There is no contradiction here. Read what I'm saying carefully. God does not will something that frustrates his own will. If He did, that would be contradictory in itself. We are disobedient (remember disobedience is sin) BECAUSE GOD WILLED IT TO BE SO, and bound us over to disobedience.
For right now, that is God's will for the human race. He has subjected the whole creation to VANITY, and bound us to DISOBEDIENCE. God's will is not being frustrated at all because that is what He wants RIGHT NOW. Later on God will DELIVER the creation from this BONDAGE and have MERCY on us all. That is God's will for the creation which will happen to completion sometime in the future, and that will not be frustrated either.
God's will is NOT frustrated.
No my friend, you and most of church tradition have it backwards. We are not fully made in the image of God yet. If you look at Gen 1:27 in the original languages, you will see the tense is "is being created" as opposed to "was created" as in:
Not sure! Brain freeze! I think you got it backwards. We are ALREADY made in the image of God. Adam was made sinless. If your assessment is correct GOD got it backwards. I do not believe that for one moment.
Gen 1:27 So God [epoieesen] created man in his own image, in the image of God [epoieesen] created he him; male and female created he them. ["epoieesen" is aorist active] "is being created" is present active.Man is being created in the image of God
. RIGHT NOW. And in the future... until God has completed making man in His image.
But according to you and mainstream tradition, man who was in the perfect exact final image of God, SINNED
! How ridiculous is that? Think about it. If man is in the perfect express image of God, how can man sin since God does not sin?[/quote]
Are you familiar with Enoch, seventh from Adam? He "pleased God and was not, for God took him, for he pleased God." Enoch was translated, never having died, for the wages of sin is death. It was not ordained that man would sin.
Gen 5:22 "And Enoch walked with God..." (This reminds me of Adam in the beginning)
Gen 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
Enoch not only pleased God when he walked with God, he was also a prophet of God:
Jude 1:14 "And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,"
It is beginning to seem as though you are correct, however, except for scenes like this one. How is it Enoch never obeyed God and sinned, when scripture says he obeyed God by NOT sinning; and "God is no respecter of persons." Seems confusing to me.
You show a God who not only creates man TO sin, but even as he creates them TO sin, he tells them to NOT sin. THAT is insanity. God is not insane.
No, believing God doesn't know that man would sin or not is insane. Believing God purposes or allows people to be tormented for ever is insane. You are right that God is not insane though.
Scripture shows that God binds all men to disobedience and subjects us to vanity. God then explains what sin is through His commandments and laws, and shows us how sin is overcome through Jesus and through the commandments of Love. Of course we fail to live up to these laws, GOD KNEW and INTENDED THIS WOULD HAPPEN. We thus experience the utter depths and futility of failure, sin, and evil. This is IMPORTANT for our spiritual growth and understanding. This allows us to learn what NON-LOVE is, so we can eventually fully appreciate and understand what LOVE is. Ultimately we WILL (future tense) be made into the exact express image of God, which is
How can you conclude that for God to give men free will is a mistake? God has free will and we are made in his image. I begin to comprehend how it is Universal Salvation becomes a welcome doctrine among men. It eliminates the guilt of sin by putting the blame all on God for making us sinners to begin with.
I didn't say that. I said if
God intended and purposed us NOT to sin, yet here we are sinning, then God made a mistake - a miscalculation, a mis-step; He had to change his plan IN CASE we sinned as YOU suggest. Now since YOU do believe God did NOT intend us to sin, and you stated He needed a backup plan IN CASE we sinned, you yourself have then admitted that God did indeed make the mistake, because his original plan was FOILED by the very "free will" man was given.
To do that we have to experience evil. From the CLV:
Eccl 1:13 It is an experience of evil Elohim [God] has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it
God is giving us an experience of evil. Think about the ramifications of that.
Actually, the quote says - 12 I the Preacher was king over Israel in Jerusalem. 13 And I gave my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all things that are done under heaven: this sore travail hath God given to the sons of man to be exercised therewith. 14 I have seen all the works that are done under the sun; and, behold, all is vanity and vexation of spirit.
"This sore travail" is a reference to his "seeking and searching out by wisdom all things that are done under heaven." "Seeking and searching" are not sin.
"This sore travail" is actually translated from the hebrew word "Ra" which means "EVIL", the same word in the "tree of knowledge of good and evil (Ra)".
The version I quoted was the Concordant Literal Version, which translates word for word:Eccl 1:13 "It is an experience of evil Elohim [God] has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it" (Concorant Old Testament).
God created evil (Isaiah 45:7) so that we would experience it (Eccl 1:13) so that we would be HUMBLED and LEARN.
22) And If God's will cannot be frustrated, and I preach about a God of vengeance, why do you correct me, and say that my God is a God of hate? It must be God's will that I so teach! And for you to intervene in any way; for you to not aid me in my task, is to go against God's will; which can't be done?
(legoman) "why do you correct me" you say. Why not? Because God has given me a heart to search out the truth and preach the gospel, that's why! Remember God's will does not frustrate His own will. God sets us up in disobedience, puts us through suffering, so He can have mercy on us later, show His glory, and perfect us as sons.
Nope! If all those things in which men sinned was God's will, and I teach truth about it, how then is it I am to be corrected? Am I not already correct, by your understanding of what constitutes God's will? You could NOT correct me, for it was already God's will for me to say those things, and you cannot thwart God's will, according to your comprehension of how things are. [/quote]
Then perhaps God's will for you RIGHT NOW is to oppose the teachings of UR on this tentmaker website, while God's will for me is to defend the teachings of UR here on this same website. This cannot and will not change until God changes one of our hearts and opens our eyes. In effect God's will is for us to FRUSTRATE each other! Yet God's will is not frustrated in this, because that is what He intended!
Perhaps we should pray that God will bring our two wills into agreement? God - who is the savior of all men, and who will have all men to be saved - how should He finally resolve our apparent conflict, which He has intended to happen, so that we would both LEARN? God will eventually bring us all to our knees, and we will all bow in agreement JOYFULLY PRAISING that He is Lord and Savior of all! Scripture declares it.
Again, you missed the condition in which Adam was placed in the garden. He was not created in sin, a sinner. He was created innocent UNTIL he sinned. THAT constituted the first "change of heart" resulting in rebellion against God. YOU HAVE EVERYTHING BACKWARDS.
Adam was a SINNER from the beginning, just like the rest of us. Adam did not have a choice to NOT be a sinner, for He was always intended to eat of the forbidden fruit. God was not rolling dice and waiting to see if Adam was a sinner or not, while holding Jesus in reserve "IN CASE" Adam "probably" would sin!
God KNEW how it would all go down, God INTENDED it, because God had already prepared the lamb of God BEFORE any human was ever created. God has bound all men to disobedience (this includes Adam). And He will have mercy on all men. [/quote]
I see a certain pattern of sense in your presentation, which I will have to contemploate on for a bit. I have to evaluate what I know with what you have presented, and see if it meshes in truth. I will probably look over some more posts in the meantime, though I may not respond for a while, as I think on these things.