25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS

[Beloved Servant]

...and that name above all others is:

JESUS

[Beloved Servant]

He is the first and the Last and without Him we are:

nothing
nothing
nothing
nothing
nothing
nothing
nothing
nothing
nothing

[WhiteWings]

So it was God's reluctance to stop world war II? He wanted all those children and babies to be slaughtered? Hated those six million Jews and seven million Christians who were slaughtered by the nazis? I'll think about it. Nah! Don't think so.

That's a difficult question. But I find the plagues of Egypt equally difficult to understand. Because the pharoo didn't cooperate the whole country suffered plagues. And my guess is that poor people in that country got hit harder by it than their master. And that includes children and babies. And that's not the only example of war in the Bible.
I agree not all is easy to understand.....

[jabcat]

I agree as well.  I sort of see it as a basic outline, with specific touchstone scriptures that "hold it together".  But then a lot of the in-between details can be hard to "figure out" sometimes.  I think that's one thing we try to do, is reason it out sometimes with our own minds, rather than just taking what the scriptures actually say, not read into them with our biases and "this doesn't make sense to me", and just trust that God will reveal the details as we go - or maybe not even until we're in His direct presence and perfected by Him.  I have maybe 10 or 20 main precepts I hang my hat on, and believe everything else fits within that outline somewhere, I just may not fully understand those things yet.

It's like Jesus slain, Savior, God is good and His ways are perfect, God's in control, we make choices within parameters He sets, we're blessed and/or judged, corrected, all not of Him destroyed, we're restored, reconciled, God all in all.  There are scriptures that address those things, those "building blocks" to the framework.  But a whole lot of "but how does this fit exactly" that I believe we just still see through a glass darkly - until face-to-face.  

[Theo Book]

So it was God's reluctance to stop world war II? He wanted all those children and babies to be slaughtered? Hated those six million Jews and seven million Christians who were slaughtered by the nazis? I'll think about it. Nah! Don't think so.

That's a difficult question. But I find the plagues of Egypt equally difficult to understand. Because the pharoo didn't cooperate the whole country suffered plagues. And my guess is that poor people in that country got hit harder by it than their master. And that includes children and babies. And that's not the only example of war in the Bible.
I agree not all is easy to understand.....

I'm finding out another thing while studying with you guys...
I am not without biases.

[WhiteWings]

I'm finding out another thing while studying with you guys...
I am not without biases.

We are all here to learn Theo. We all, at least I am, hope everyone adds a piece to the puzzle of understanding.
But not all pieces fit. Or there is disagreement on the puzzle piece. Take for example the two forbidden subjects "free will" and "Trinity". They cause hopeless fights between UR forum members. It's not a rule to hide from the hard questions by people who don't believe in UR.
It's also often thought UR people just pick 5 nice puzzle pieces and that concludes their doctrine.
If you stick around you will notice that's far from true. You may never agree with us, but I think you will at least know/learn we are trying to complete the whole puzzle.
Many people are very aware of the critical questions you asked because they have for example been Calvinists for decades before the turned to UR.
 

[Theo Book]

I'm finding out another thing while studying with you guys...
I am not without biases.

We are all here to learn Theo. We all, at least I am, hope everyone adds a piece to the puzzle of understanding.
But not all pieces fit. Or there is disagreement on the puzzle piece. Take for example the two forbidden subjects "free will" and "Trinity". They cause hopeless fights between UR forum members. It's not a rule to hide from the hard questions by people who don't believe in UR.
It's also often thought UR people just pick 5 nice puzzle pieces and that concludes their doctrine.
If you stick around you will notice that's far from true. You may never agree with us, but I think you will at least know/learn we are trying to complete the whole puzzle.
Many people are very aware of the critical questions you asked because they have for example been Calvinists for decades before the turned to UR.
 

o.k. THAT sheds some light on the issue. Now, later, when my eyes are opened, the light will help.

I have been studying UR only about fifteen years, but trinity for over fifty, so I understand where you are comeing from on that one at least. In fact trinity is almost exclusively the theme of my own board. I also discuss abortion, homosexuality, and several other things of interest to Christians, but not UR. Mainly becasue I do not know what UR doctrine is composed of. Therefore, I practice silence on those issues (on my board).

[rosered]

So it was God's reluctance to stop world war II? He wanted all those children and babies to be slaughtered? Hated those six million Jews and seven million Christians who were slaughtered by the nazis? I'll think about it. Nah! Don't think so.

That's a difficult question. But I find the plagues of Egypt equally difficult to understand. Because the pharoo didn't cooperate the whole country suffered plagues. And my guess is that poor people in that country got hit harder by it than their master. And that includes children and babies. And that's not the only example of war in the Bible.
I agree not all is easy to understand.....

I'm finding out another thing while studying with you guys...
I am not without biases.

  Hi Theo and WW
  just gotta say, none of us  know everything till Gods will is complete 
tillthan we all just  keep searching out   Truth / Jesus 

 and about  what you said on  pharaoh , him being a leader and his heart was hardened  and also the Lord hardened his heart
 
  to me  its an example of how we are to hate evil ways 
  when  innocent people suffer at the hands evil hearts   we get a better perception of  whats evil and whats good
  the Day when there will be no more sadness pain sorrow and tears is a day  we all long for  there will be nothing  to defile the new and holy kingdom of God thats going to be glorious in itself ! and all we can  do is thank God for this end ! and wait till the Lord God complete His will in mercy 
 
 
  for me   since  beliving in the power of God and His great mercy
 salvation means  when we die  in what ever way death comes to us , being naturally or spirtitually speaking  , that work of Christ on the Cross
 
 becomes a reality  , our goal as believing His Word over anyone elses is this
  death the last enemy is abolished /done away in Christ and a goal that Peter fought with Jesus about , Jesus telling  Peter , get behind me satan you are an offense to ME
 
 Being  mindful/ savoring the things of men and NOT of  GOD
  mens state is so temporary ,  and rise and fall  daily  , but the Lord God is eternal  and thats what makes this wonderful to think upon
 

[WhiteWings]

and about  what you said on  pharaoh , him being a leader and his heart was hardened  and also the Lord hardened his heart

Good point Rosey. I thought of that too when I wrote that message but didn't mention it because I thought it would sidetrack my "argument". But now I think about it again it even strengthens what I was trying to say. God punished whole Egypt for its leader being stubborn. But God made that leader (extra) stubborn.

[rosered]

and about  what you said on  pharaoh , him being a leader and his heart was hardened  and also the Lord hardened his heart

Good point Rosey. I thought of that too when I wrote that message but didn't mention it because I thought it would sidetrack my "argument". But now I think about it again it even strengthens what I was trying to say. God punished whole Egypt for its leader being stubborn. But God made that leader (extra) stubborn.

  Glad you "get  what  i was trying to say "
  its hard  to put in words sometimes
 
  but the innocent always suffer when evil is done
 that just maybe what God wants us to learn and stop  "going along with "
 
  but first we got to know what the difference is  what Gods will is and  what it is NOT !
 His is always best for all concerned ...
 
 one day this will be all over and done with .. a Day we all look forward to  no doubt .

[Beloved Servant]

Amen.
The Lord's actions demonstrated, to both sides, at one time, what faith and/or disobedience can do.

[rosered]

Amen.
The Lord's actions demonstrated, to both sides, at one time, what faith and/or disobedience can do.

well said David ..

[Theo Book]

So it was God's reluctance to stop world war II? He wanted all those children and babies to be slaughtered? Hated those six million Jews and seven million Christians who were slaughtered by the nazis? I'll think about it. Nah! Don't think so.

That's a difficult question. But I find the plagues of Egypt equally difficult to understand. Because the pharoo didn't cooperate the whole country suffered plagues. And my guess is that poor people in that country got hit harder by it than their master. And that includes children and babies. And that's not the only example of war in the Bible.
I agree not all is easy to understand.....

I'm finding out another thing while studying with you guys...
I am not without biases.

  Hi Theo and WW
  just gotta say, none of us  know everything till Gods will is complete 
tillthan we all just  keep searching out   Truth / Jesus 

 and about  what you said on  pharaoh , him being a leader and his heart was hardened  and also the Lord hardened his heart
 
  to me  its an example of how we are to hate evil ways 
  when  innocent people suffer at the hands evil hearts   we get a better perception of  whats evil and whats good
  the Day when there will be no more sadness pain sorrow and tears is a day  we all long for  there will be nothing  to defile the new and holy kingdom of God thats going to be glorious in itself ! and all we can  do is thank God for this end ! and wait till the Lord God complete His will in mercy 
 
 
  for me   since  beliving in the power of God and His great mercy
 salvation means  when we die  in what ever way death comes to us , being naturally or spirtitually speaking  , that work of Christ on the Cross
 
 becomes a reality  , our goal as believing His Word over anyone elses is this
  death the last enemy is abolished /done away in Christ and a goal that Peter fought with Jesus about , Jesus telling  Peter , get behind me satan you are an offense to ME
 
 Being  mindful/ savoring the things of men and NOT of  GOD
  mens state is so temporary ,  and rise and fall  daily  , but the Lord God is eternal  and thats what makes this wonderful to think upon
 

Hi RoseRed

Just wanted to share something with you and all others on the board. The scriptures say "God hardened Pharoah's heart" - I have heard sermons on this that say God took an active part in deliberately hardening Pharoah's heart, for his own purpose. The problem I have with that explanation is, the grammatical difference in the terminology.

If you consider - some folks say "Hard Rock just turns me off" or "salt water Taffy turns my stomache" (or some similar language appropriate to your own experience).

I think we can agree hard rock music and salt water taffy do not do anything to effect anybody. they simply are, and we individually react to them as fits our own disposition in the matter.

So also, God did nothing to harden Pharoah's heart, but Pharoah had the attitude, "That Israelite God just turns me off" as in "hardens my heart," or "Makes me stubborn." It was Pharoah's own attitude the scriptures are describing. This is born out by the words used in the Septuagint account - compared with the same word in the Hebrew letter.


ACTIVE = [skleeruneete]
Hebrews 3:8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:

PASSIVE = [skleerunthyee][Subjunctive or Imperative]
Hebrews 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

PASSIVE [eskleerunthee][Indicative]
Exodus 8:19 Then the magicians said unto Pharaoh, This is the finger of God: and Pharaoh's heart was  hardened, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.

Just thought you might like to know why God would harden someone's heart. He didn't. the idea of "God" was what did it. Like hard rock and saltwater taffy.

  

[onlytruth]

Hi Theo, is this the same as God sending an evil spirit to torment Saul? or did God not play a part in it and it was Sauls issue.

[rosered]

 
  Thank you Theo ,
 for the lesson  in use of terms 
I can sure see how any of   those  people of times past , present or future     did , will do or going to  harden their hearts against the hearing
 of Truth ..
 this why " faith " comes by hearing ... also seems to be why many have suffered  needlessly  in a life of misery
  but we know that Pharaohs heart was hardened that the glory and power  of God would be revealed in it  too 
 
 Romans 9 14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

 15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

 16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

 17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.   18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
 
 seems  God does allow room for growth 

  we are to learn from examples and the scriptures by the Holy Spirit  teaching us
 
 

[Theo Book]

Hi Theo, is this the same as God sending an evil spirit to torment Saul? or did God not play a part in it and it was Sauls issue.

God sent an evil spirit. Just as he sent a lying spirit to get David to number the people.
Different occasion; different circumstances, different economy altogether.

You see, when God deals with gentile nations under the old covenant with Israel, he dealt with them as enemies of God's people. When he dealt with Israel, he treated them in a much different way than how he treated Gentiles, because they were God's chosen people, Israel.  When David was tempted to number the people of God, he knew better, had already received instructions to that effect, and disobeyed, when he should have recognized it as a temptation and avoided it like the plague.

When Saul was sent an evil spirit, it was to counteract the Holy Spirit he had previously receeived, because he had the Holy Spirit and still behaved unrighteously, driven by his own ambition.

Having the Holy Spirit will not make one sinless, it will make one better able to fight temptation. It still requires one to fight and give your heart totally to God.

[Theo Book]

 
  Thank you Theo ,
 for the lesson  in use of terms 
I can sure see how any of   those  people of times past , present or future     did , will do or going to  harden their hearts against the hearing
 of Truth ..
 this why " faith " comes by hearing ... also seems to be why many have suffered  needlessly  in a life of misery
  but we know that Pharaohs heart was hardened that the glory and power  of God would be revealed in it  too 
 
 Romans 9 14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

 15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

 16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

 17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.   18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
 
 seems  God does allow room for growth 

  we are to learn from examples and the scriptures by the Holy Spirit  teaching us
 
 

It is my firm belief that even Pharoah could have turned to God with tears in his heart and sought a place in God's family, and God wopuld have forgiven him and given him a place in his heart. But Pharoah wanted no part of the God of Israel, other than to show him up.

[jabcat]

vessels of honor and dishonor...some fitted for destruction.  Destruction appears to be anything not of God that cannot enter the city (wood, hay, stubble) saved as by fire so the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.

[onlytruth]

Hi Theo, if God gave, and took away the holy spirit from Saul is he doing this on a regular basis?Or is God the one who gives us the revelation and understanding in His time,so that no man could boast.

[Molly]

It is now that my life is mine
I've got this short time on earth
And my longing has brought me here
All I lacked, and all I gained

And yet it's the way that I chose
My trust was far beyond words
That has shown me a little bit
Of the heaven I've never found

I want to feel I'm alive
All my living days
I will live as I desire

I want to feel I'm alive
Knowing I was good enough

I have never lost who I was
I have only left it sleeping
Maybe I never had a choice
Just the will to stay alive

All I want is to be happy
Being who I am
To be strong and to be free
To see day arise from night

I am here and my life is only mine
And the heaven I thought was there
I'll discover it there somewhere

I want to feel that I've lived my life

--Swedish Song




Psalm 51:12
Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.

[rosered]

It is my firm belief that even Pharoah could have turned to God with tears in his heart and sought a place in God's family, and God wopuld have forgiven him and given him a place in his heart. But Pharoah wanted no part of the God of Israel, other than to show him up.

  But the Lord used this example to show Israel  His power to save them ..
 
  I agree with Jabcat the vessels of wrath fitted for destruction
 
 was Pharaohs  role in  example and Israel went on into Idolatry..
 
 1Corinth . Chapter 10
1 For I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, that our fathers all were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea,
2 and all are baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,
3 and all ate the same spiritual food,
4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they drank of the spiritual Rock which followed. Now the Rock was Christ.
5 But not in the majority of them does God delight, for they were strewn along in the wilderness.
6 Now these things became types of us, for us not to be lusters after evil things,
7 according as they also lust. Nor yet be becoming idolaters, according as some of them, even as it is written, "Seated are the people to eat and drink, and they rise to sport."
8 Nor yet may we be committing prostitution, according as some of them commit prostitution, and fall in one day twenty-three thousand.
9 Nor yet may we be putting the Lord on trial, according as some of them put Him on trial, and perished by serpents.
10 Nor yet be murmuring even as some of them murmur, and perished by the exterminator.
11 Now all this befalls them typically. Yet it was written for our admonition, to whom the consummations of the eons have attained.
12 So that, let him who is supposing he stands beware that he should not be falling.
13 No trial has taken you except what is human. Now, faithful is God, Who will not be leaving you to be tried above what you are able, but, together with the trial, will be making the sequel also, to enable you to undergo it.
14 Wherefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry.

 It is very nice and challenging to speak with you sis , and I do  enjoy your input
 

[reFORMer]

Beyond the fact of our giving an account for every thought, word and deed, that the choices we make are very significant and that all mankind is judged for his deeds; beyond even God's liberty to do whatever He pleases; there are expressed in Scripture truths at the edges of what is possible for man to conceive.

Not only as the most distant future described:

"Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him,then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all." (1 Cor 15:8, CLT)

But as the most encompassing description of the present reality:

"...but all and in all is Christ." (Col 3:11)

There is only God, and there is nothing else:

"I [am] the LORD, and [there is] none else, [there is] no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: [6] That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that [there is] none beside me. I [am] the LORD, and [there is] none else. [7] I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things]. [8] Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it." (Isa 45:5-8, AV)

This passage continues:

"How horrible it will be for the one who quarrels with his maker. He is pottery among other earthenware pots. Does the clay ask the one who shapes it, "What are you making?" Does your work say to you, "There are no handles"? (Isa 45:9, AV; cf., Rom 9:30)

Many other ways those who know the Lord may agree with me.  This extreme point many do not now see, that all reality is one God, not the locus of that God, not to be worshipped, but He Is The Substance Of All Form. We find a fulness of expression about the unity of all things with God:

"...one God and Father of all, Who is over all and through all and in all." (Eph 4:6, CLT)

"... for us there is one God, the Father, out of Whom all is, and we for Him, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through Whom all is, and we through Him.  But not in all is there this knowledge." (1 Cor 8:6-7, CLT)

The head of this "many...as one" body (1 Cor 12:12) is the ascended Jesus, Who is immortal and incorruptible.  While part of the body of Christ, we are yet as in a womb because we still wear Adam; but, we are coming to a complete victory, even over death in our realm of embodiment as we put on the Lord Christ and make no provision to fulfill
the lusts of the flesh.

What Jesus intensified by there stating the Scripture cannot be broken (Jn 10:34-35) was calling us gods, elohim (Ps 82) and theos.  The Word of God is first and foremost Jesus.  As He said, "He called them Gods to whom the word of God came, and the Scripture cannot be broken..."  Jesus came to us.  He has come to us and is now coming to us from the realm of ascension as Spirit and sometimes more.   He has complete access to His body.  By writing His Word in our hearts and minds we become living epistles.  We are aspects of the Word of God.  We are the flesh of God in the earth. (cf., Eph 5:30)  He will transfigure our bodies of humiliation into the likeness of His body of Glory.

As we are constantly intimate with the Presence of Him Who is the Resurrection and the Life we are transformed into the same Image by His Spirit.  That it is "the same Image" is Scripture that cannot be broken.  We are already One substance with the body of Glory resting on the Mercy Throne.  He disciplines us to align us with Himself that the inner reality of His presence may manifest and reign in all the earth.

[WhiteWings]

Hi RoseRed

Just wanted to share something with you and all others on the board. The scriptures say "God hardened Pharoah's heart" - I have heard sermons on this that say God took an active part in deliberately hardening Pharoah's heart, for his own purpose. The problem I have with that explanation is, the grammatical difference in the terminology.

I can understand your view after reading your example. I searched a bit and you are not the only one with that view.
So now we have God actively hardened Pharoah's heart and Pharoah hardened his own heart.
I wonder if there is a way we can prove one of the views to be correct and the other wrong. For example a verse in another book that mentions the hardening in other terms. When various people give various opinions on the same subject I try to figure out the most credible view. I for example searched in a Jewish magazine in which Rabbi's write atricles and answer readers questions. Their view is that God actively hardended Pharoah's heart. While I think Rabbi's are very skilled in thier own language they are also human. So it can be the teachings of men. Perhaps they also have very solid proof. I don't know....  The best thing would be a few solid verses.

The verse below shows God can/does harden hearts but it not proof He did so with Pharoah.
^KJVRom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

[jabcat]

Good points Tony    .

We also have "..hath not the potter authority over the clay, out of the same lump to make the one vessel to honour, and the one to dishonour?"  Romans 9:21 and

"...if God, willing to shew the wrath and to make known His power, did endure, in much long suffering, vessels of wrath fitted for destruction" Romans 9:22

But always this - "..with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him.."  Eph 1:10   
 

[Theo Book]

The Word of God is first and foremost Jesus. 

I thought "trinity" was a forbidden topic. Am I to respond or not?