25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS

[Theo Book]

I have prepared a sort of questionaire to Universalists - Answer me please;

1) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And If Eve ate of the forbidden fruit, [Gen 3:6] in the garden, it must have been God's will.

2) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And If Eve gave to her husband, Adam, and he did eat, also, [Gen 3:6] it must have been God's will.

3) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And if cain killed Able, [Gen 4:8] it must have been God's will.

4) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And if the sons of God came in unto the daughter's of men, [Gen 6:4] it must have been God's will.

5) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And if every thought of man's heart was only evil continually,[Gen 6:5] it must have been God's will.

6) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And if the men of the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah were exceedingly wicked before the Lord, [Gen 13:13] it must have been God's will

7) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And If Saul disobeyed God, to spare the Amelekites, [1Sam 13:13-14] it must have been God's will. (Note:"...for now would the Lord have established thy kingdom upon Israel forever. But now thy kingdom shall not continue. The phrase "for now WOULD the Lord is the same as "it WAS the Lord's WILL. Saul's disobedience CHANGED the Lord's will for Saul; But it was God's will that his will be thwarted.

8) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And If David committed adultry with Bath-sheba, [2 Sam 11:4] it must have been god's will.

9) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And If, of all the many thousands who came out of Egypt, in the great exodus, only two made it to the promised land, (Joshua and Caleb)[Num 14:30,38] it must have been God's will.

10) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And If Moses came down off the mount, and saw the children of israel dancing around a God they had made for themselves, [Num 32] it must have been God's will.

11) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And If all men sin and come short of the glory of God; [Rom 3:23] it must have been God's will.

12) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And if the Jews always resist the Holy Spirit, [Acts 7:51] it must have been God's will.

13) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And if the Jews stoned Stephen, [Acts 7:60] it must have been God's will.

14) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And if evil men put you out of the synagogue, and even kill you, they will think they do God a service, [John 16:2-3] but it must have been God's will.

15) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And if the Jews rebelled against God, and cast down his law behind their backs, and slew the prophets, and wrought great provocation, [Neh 9:26] it must have been God's will.

16) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And if Pharoah slew all the male children of Israel, [Exo 1:16] it must have been God's will.

17) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And if Herod slew all the children of Bethlehem, and in all the costs thereof, from two years old and under, [Mat 2:16] it must have been God's will.

18) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And if Ananias lied to the Holy Spirit, [Acts 5:2-3] it must have been God's will.

19) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And if Sapphira, his wife joined him in his deed, [Acts 5:2-3] it must have been God's will.

20) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And if Satan was a liar from the beginning, [John 8:44] it must have been God's will.

21) If God's will cannot be frustrated;
And if Peter betrayed his Lord with denial, [Mat 26:75] it must have been God's will.

22) And If God's will cannot be frustrated, and I preach about a god of vengeance, why do you correct me, and say that my God is a God of hate? It must be God's will that I so teach! And for you to intervene in any way; for you to not aid me in my task, is to go against God's will; which can't be done?

23) And if God's will cannot be overturned, or thwarted, why should wives submit to their own husbands, children obey their parents, murderers be punished, and etc. ad nauseum? God's will is, after all, behind it all.

24) And if God is love, and I preach that he is a God of vengeance, what difference does it make to you, it is God's will.

25) And If God's will cannot be frustrated, he becomes directly responsible for all the sin, murder, adultry, lying, cheating, stealing, every evil thing man has ever done. there can be no "repentance, (which God wills that every man repent), because how can a man 'repent" of doing god's will

Do you begin to see just a wee crakc in the doctrine, yet? There is plenty more where this came from. Because, after all, it is God's will that I break down this doctrine, and so I must. And for you to intervene, is to frustrate God's will.

I await your response

Theophilus Book

[Beloved Servant]

Since now, through the Blood of Jesus Christ our Lord, we may now boldly come to throne of God, perhaps asking God Himself for the answers you seek would be the more direct approach.

[legoman]

Its God's will for us all to be disobedient so He can have mercy on us all, so we will ultimately all be obedient.  Then we'll all be saved.   

[Theo Book]

Since now, through the Blood of Jesus Christ our Lord, we may now boldly come to throne of God, perhaps asking God Himself for the answers you seek would be the more direct approach.

I doubt it. I was not asking God. Look again at the title of my post.

[Theo Book]

Its God's will for us all to be disobedient so He can have mercy on us all, so we will ultimately all be obedient.  Then we'll all be saved.   

So you worship a God that wants us all to suffer the pangs of guilt, torment each other with awful behaviours and terrible revengeful things, just so he can pardon us?

I don't worship such a God. I worship the God Jesus worshipped.

[legoman]

I worship the God described in the scriptures:

Romans 11:32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Romans 8:20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.

Ecc 1:13 [Concordant Literal] It is an experience of evil Elohim [God] has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it



We are made perfect through suffering, so in order for us to be made perfect, God first has to create the suffering.

[Beloved Servant]

There are only 2 men.
Adam — and the Last Adam.

[Theo Book]

I worship the God described in the scriptures:

Romans 11:32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Romans 8:20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.

Right... in HOPE that all men will avail themselves of the blood of Christ. some will, some will not, but the hope is that all will.

We are brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God when we are bapttized into Christ in order to be in the  likeness of his resurrection.

[legoman]

I worship the God described in the scriptures:

Romans 11:32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Romans 8:20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.

Right... in HOPE that all men will avail themselves of the blood of Christ. some will, some will not, but the hope is that all will.

We are brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God when we are bapttized into Christ in order to be in the  likeness of his resurrection.

Oh dear.  So God, who is all-knowing, all-powerful, created the whole universe, even declared the end from the beginning, is simply "hoping" that things will work out?  He is hoping the creation will liberate itself?

God is in control whether you like it or not Theo.  Trust Him! 

[reFORMer]

There are two Greek words that get covered up in translation by the one word "will." One Greek term is boule, or, boulamai, etc., meaning "counsel," "mutual counsel or advice." The other Greek term is thelo, "form a decision, choice or purpose;" idiomatically, "want," or, "would." It seems the former refers more clearly to what can be set aside or frustrated. The latter is more used of an over-arching plan that cannot be undone regardless of what men do or do not do.

The whole topic is farther frustrated by that one word "will" in English, which we use for the capacity to make a decision (regardless of internal contradictions of thought or emotion,) being colored by additional association with both, 1.) motivation or drive, which, psycho analytically, is either on or off. That is, you either are driven to something or you are not; and, 2.) "want" as a detached emotional desire that can be frustrated and unfufilled.

Jonathan Edwards had about the last word on the nature of the will.  He suggested as proof to use the squares of a chessboard and, with a pen in hand, attempt to designate one of the squares on the board without influencing which one is pointed out. It is apparent there is no such thing as an uninfluenced will (which is what is intended by the term "free" will.)  God constitutes men with a volitional capacity and they will be held accountable for their choices.  Nevertheless, the human will remains something God makes. The contradictory nature of the discussion is well illustrated by this passage of Scripture, a single statement of our Lord we are attracted to change into two, like moths to the flame:  "...seeing that the Son of Mankind is indeed going, according as it has been predesignated. However, woe to that man through whom He is being given up!" (Lk 22:22)
________________________________
MODERATOR'S CAUTION

Since the topic of "freewill vs. the sovereignty of God" rapidly generates multiple pages of tedious cut and paste argument without any resolution, only references integral to another topic are allowed. Should a dichotomy occur and posts become tangential it will be locked or otherwise operated on by one of the Moderators.  I consider it very reasonable that, depending on what side of the two-edged sword is most beneficial to person at a given season, that is the side of the discussion they'll be found until they've matured enough to recognize the balanced truth of the matter and share the Divine viewpoint.

[peacemaker]

Systematically, many are the plans within the minds of men, but it is the purpose or council of the LORD that will stand. Therefore, be still before the LORD and wait patiently for him; fret not over the one who prospers in his own way (the man who carries out the evil desires of his own heart).

peacemaker

[reFORMer]

"And all the inhabitants of the earth [are] reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and [among] the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?" (Dan 4:35) This seems to be a fundamental observation of the Divine nature.  It was part of what was arrived at through much chastening, the Autarch of the World Government of the day having been driven insane for seven years, living in the forest and fields, eating grass as an ox. This judgment was so, "...that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men." (Dan 4:17, AV)  This judgment had been shown to the king through a dream that Daniel interpreted the prophecy in by the Spirit of God within him.  I can say I hope to not pay such a price to know God is absolute in authority over all.  It is expressed in the words, "Jesus is Lord."  Lord here is the Greek word kurios, meaning, "absolute, ultimate authority."  "...and [that] no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost." (1 Co 12:3, AV; see Phil 2:9-11, specially vs.11)

This happened to Nebuchadnezzar the king, the Head of Gold of the image in another dream he himself forgot. He was so enraged at forgetting it he determined death for all the wise men, and their kind throughout the known world unless they told him what he had dreamed and what it meant.. Daniel ("judged of God," or "God is Judge," "God" being "El" meaning something like our, "all",) whom he called Belteshazzar ("the confusion of baal" that is, "the confounder of the Lord", -- we have an identity among Israel and another to Babylon) by telling the king his dream and what it meant, saved the lives of all those whose work was wisdom in those days.  As a result, Daniel became their head and they all owed him their lives.

This dream revealed the meaning of life.  That is why it was with such a sense of value to Nebuchadnezzar.  The dream illustrates that there is no meaning to life; that is, the Adamic life. I think that is additionally much of why he was so angry, not only that he forgot it. The realm of God where He rules "...shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms," (Dan 2:44) which were what made up the image of Mankind that Nebuchadnezzar had seen. Only that born of the kingdom of God has life and identity that remains.  Remember the dream and Who made the king forget it when you confront those who in their own wisdom dismiss God.

[jabcat]

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MODERATOR'S CAUTION

Since the topic of "freewill vs. the sovereignty of God" rapidly generates multiple pages of tedious cut and paste argument without any resolution, only references integral to another topic are allowed. Should a dichotomy occur and posts become tangential it will be locked or otherwise operated on by one of the Moderators.  I consider it very reasonable that, depending on what side of the two-edged sword is most beneficial to person at a given season, that is the side of the discussion they'll be found until they've matured enough to recognize the balanced truth of the matter and share the Divine viewpoint.

Seconded.  Theo, I for one do not enjoy nor choose to participate in fruitless struggling, whether it's with someone to whom God's plan of ultimate reconciliation has been revealed or not - nor is it encouraged on TM.  Gary has told me very recently that he wants this site very focused on sharing the Victorious Gospel of Jesus Christ to those that are seeking information.  Since you state your mission is to "break down this doctrine", I ask you to very clearly state what doctrine you're trying to break down, as that will help determine the continuance of this thread.  Also, how do you know God wants you to break down the doctrine, and not just your own notions of what you think the scriptures are saying?  There was a time in the life of most of those here when they might have been making some of the same objections as you appear to be making.  

If it's open, honest seeking and fellowship you're after, then you're in the right place.  But please be aware that out-right, straight-forward attempts to bring division and dischord will have a very short time period here.   Thanks.

James.

[reFORMer]

Theo Book, your "25 Questions" are really more for Calvinists than Universal Reconciliationists. Find objections to UR you think are top notch and we'd be delighted to answer them. We do get a bit tired of the same objections most everybody makes as well as these common questions which you could discover the answers to by searching out some of the material on the initial tentmaker page as well as many of the topics here in the forum.

[Theo Book]

I worship the God described in the scriptures:

Romans 11:32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Romans 8:20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.

Right... in HOPE that all men will avail themselves of the blood of Christ. some will, some will not, but the hope is that all will.

We are brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God when we are bapttized into Christ in order to be in the  likeness of his resurrection.

Oh dear.  So God, who is all-knowing, all-powerful, created the whole universe, even declared the end from the beginning, is simply "hoping" that things will work out?  He is hoping the creation will liberate itself?

God is in control whether you like it or not Theo.  Trust Him!  

Why is it you change the thrust of what I am saying?
Try one more time.

"Romans 8:20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice,

 but by the will of the one who subjected it,

in hope

21that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.

[WhiteWings]

Romans 8:20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope


Isn't that what legoman also wrote Theo? IMO it's exactly the same.
Romans 11:32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

[Theo Book]

Romans 8:20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope


Isn't that what legoman also wrote Theo? IMO it's exactly the same.
Romans 11:32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Maybe. I missed it if he did.

in hope  21that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay

I think he missed a category that we all should be looking for.
 and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.

[Theo Book]

________________________________
MODERATOR'S CAUTION

Since the topic of "freewill vs. the sovereignty of God" rapidly generates multiple pages of tedious cut and paste argument without any resolution, only references integral to another topic are allowed. Should a dichotomy occur and posts become tangential it will be locked or otherwise operated on by one of the Moderators.  I consider it very reasonable that, depending on what side of the two-edged sword is most beneficial to person at a given season, that is the side of the discussion they'll be found until they've matured enough to recognize the balanced truth of the matter and share the Divine viewpoint.

Seconded.  Theo, I for one do not enjoy nor choose to participate in fruitless struggling, whether it's with someone to whom God's plan of ultimate reconciliation has been revealed or not - nor is it encouraged on TM.  Gary has told me very recently that he wants this site very focused on sharing the Victorious Gospel of Jesus Christ to those that are seeking information.  Since you state your mission is to "break down this doctrine", I ask you to very clearly state what doctrine you're trying to break down, as that will help determine the continuance of this thread.  Also, how do you know God wants you to break down the doctrine, and not just your own notions of what you think the scriptures are saying?  There was a time in the life of most of those here when they might have been making some of the same objections as you appear to be making.  

If it's open, honest seeking and fellowship you're after, then you're in the right place.  But please be aware that out-right, straight-forward attempts to bring division and dischord will have a very short time period here.   Thanks.

James.

Fair enough!

I find it difficult to read in any public display, any position that makes a declaration that may jeopardize people's final place in God's economy.

I do not know if Hell exists or not. I do know that if it does, we should be warned. I believe there are sufficient scriptures that serve that purpose IF THERE IS A HELL.

I also believe that if there is NO hell, what difference will it make to those who won't go there anyway. In other words, if warned, no loss. If not warned, jeopardy.

THAT's my motive. Change the outlook IF there IS a hell.

I also know, from debating Gary ten years ago, that his original argument was based on the fact of no "hell-warning" in the old testament. I have studied that aspect and determined it was never part of the old covenants to begin with, and served no purpose in that economy. I am simply trying to share that study.

As for my twenty-five questions, if you will loo0k again, they are all predicated upon one thing. "IF - THEN."

"IF God's will cannot be thwarted, THEN..." to show that the argument that God's will is always done is a misguided assessment of historical scripture.

If that is not welcome on this board, I will move on.

I also find it a little unsettling to find the disappointment posted on this board abvout Carm's refusla to discuss Universal Salvation, when this board does the same thing about free will. Seems kinda inconsistent to me. Not my call to make though.

[WhiteWings]

For the creation was subjected to frustration/For God has bound all men over to disobedience
=> that's done by Father.
=> the words subjected/bound shows me it was 'by force'

not by its own choice
=> without asking the creation

Doesn't the above say all that was done by Father regardless if you do or do not believe in free will?

so that he may have mercy on them all.
=> The subjecting had a purpose it seems. Why? That's a whole other topic I guess.

[Theo Book]

For the creation was subjected to frustration/For God has bound all men over to disobedience
=> that's done by Father.
=> the words subjected/bound shows me it was 'by force'

not by its own choice
=> without asking the creation

Doesn't the above say all that was done by Father regardless if you do or do not believe in free will?

so that he may have mercy on them all.
=> The subjecting had a purpose it seems. Why? That's a whole other topic I guess.

I believe I have been notified we are not to discuss that issue "F/W".

[WhiteWings]

I do not know if Hell exists or not. I do know that if it does, we should be warned. I believe there are sufficient scriptures that serve that purpose IF THERE IS A HELL.

I also believe that if there is NO hell, what difference will it make to those who won't go there anyway. In other words, if warned, no loss. If not warned, jeopardy.

THAT's my motive. Change the outlook IF there IS a hell.

Ok, I see your point.
But now see it from another view. Just for a moment God is how UR says He is.
Don't you think it's an insult to His character if He is accused of torture while He actually is caring?
Shouldn't that kind of slander be avoided?

It's a like I'm warning everyone you are a thief. That's a good think because if you are a thief I prevented the people I warned from being robbed. But if it turns out you are not a thief then who cares the people weren't robbed either. So it's a win-win situation! Or not?

[WhiteWings]

I also know, from debating Gary ten years ago, that his original argument was based on the fact of no "hell-warning" in the old testament. I have studied that aspect and determined it was never part of the old covenants to begin with, and served no purpose in that economy. I am simply trying to share that study.

Ok let me ask you a question then about 'that economy'.

You see each convenant as a period in time with it's own set of rules. Is that correct?
Does that also mean Jesus is only the saviour in this economy?
He was slain on the foundation of the world. That's before Adam and Eve sinned.
Does that still place Jesus only in the current economy or all since creation?

[Theo Book]

I also know, from debating Gary ten years ago, that his original argument was based on the fact of no "hell-warning" in the old testament. I have studied that aspect and determined it was never part of the old covenants to begin with, and served no purpose in that economy. I am simply trying to share that study.

Ok let me ask you a question then about 'that economy'.

You see each convenant as a period in time with it's own set of rules. Is that correct?
Does that also mean Jesus is only the saviour in this economy?
He was slain on the foundation of the world. That's before Adam and Eve sinned.
Does that still place Jesus only in the current economy or all since creation?

Every covenant has been exponentially more profound that the previous one. First, Adam and Eve, simple instruction with consequence. Second, promises made to Abraham about his descendants, land promise, blessings and cursings, good and evil. Third, eternal consequences, from temporal actions based on personal decisions.

Every covenant had its own set of parameterrs, but they all are based ion the plan of God for a remedy, and that remedy has always been the self-sacrifice of the son of God. He is the ransom for Adam, Eve, all men of Abraqham's seed, and all men of Adam's seed who lived according to whatever covenant they had with God.

God had the plan for the sacrifice of his son, but if man had not sinned it would have not been carried out. He knew the mind of men and provided for every possibility. It was still man's choice that drove the consequence of each covenant, whether for good or for evil.

[legoman]

I worship the God described in the scriptures:

Romans 11:32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Romans 8:20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.

Right... in HOPE that all men will avail themselves of the blood of Christ. some will, some will not, but the hope is that all will.

We are brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God when we are bapttized into Christ in order to be in the  likeness of his resurrection.

Oh dear.  So God, who is all-knowing, all-powerful, created the whole universe, even declared the end from the beginning, is simply "hoping" that things will work out?  He is hoping the creation will liberate itself?

God is in control whether you like it or not Theo.  Trust Him!  

Why is it you change the thrust of what I am saying?
Try one more time.

"Romans 8:20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice,

 but by the will of the one who subjected it,

in hope

21that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.

Hi Theo,

Sorry, I really did not think I was changing the thrust of what you were saying.  I may have been in a bit of a sarcastic mood last night, so I apologize if I offended you - but I'm not sure what you are saying here then.  Who is it who you think is hoping in the above verse?  Surely you see that Romans 8:20 says it is God who subjected the creation (which includes all humans) to frustration, correct?  This was done without asking for our permission.  And it is God who will liberate the creation (which again includes all humans) from its bondage to decay (sin and death)?  Right?  Again God doesn't need to ask our permission. 

This is the glorious hope.  This is man's hope - specifically it is Paul saying "in hope".  This is where our faith in God comes in, that we have faith and hope that God will actually do what He says: liberate the creation!  It is teaching us faith.

That is the good news and I have faith and hope that He will do it!  God says He will do it and I believe He can.  God is the one who wants to save all mankind, and God is the one who says He will reconcile and restore all things.  He can do it.

In any case, as others have alluded to, maybe take a step back for a second.  The arguments you raise here are really nothing new, so you may be fooling yourself if you think this is something the UR believer has not already considered for themself.  You might want to read through here to see how your questions have already been answered in more ways than one:

http://tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html

Coming to tentmaker to tear down the doctrine of UR is surely an exercise in frustration... 

Peace out...

[Paul Hazelwood]

If Gods will is frustrated then perhaps he is no more than a man.

The difference is that God already knew everything we would do.

No frustation,  only preparation.


There is what we do and what Gods does,  the difference is the difference.

Perhaps you could investigate the implications of this verse.

1C 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.


Either mans will is stronger than Gods or it is not, if it is not then what some say some verses mean doesn't mean that at all.