25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS

[jabcat]

I've been trying to find the order of the books to which you allude.  Is it chronological, and do you have a list of that?  Thanks.

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=3018.msg93599;topicseen#msg93599

Alright, thanks all for the info.  I'm thinking of making tabs and marking the books of my Bible 1,2,3, etc. in the order you've given.  May help me conceptualize the flow, primary audiance and intent, helping to "rightly divide the Word of truth" (2 Tim. 2:15)    

[Theo Book]

No more law (besides I don't fully agree with that) "be like Christ" is extremely hard to follow. Just like the laws.
At least for me it is hard. WhiteWings BlackSoul 

Hi WW,

Guess I didn't explain things very well?

What I meant was, since we are in Christ we will be like Jesus and the Father is, ONE. If we are ONE with the Father as Jesus was, we do not really have a will of our own. Our will is the Father's will. Since we are in Christ we have no more works, because it is God working in us and not us that do the works. Jesus did and does all the works that is required. Our works mean diddly squat.  Our so called will is nothing but works that will be burned up.

It's kind of like this.

I am in Christ and I am dead to sin and laws which is works. If I am dead in Christ I have no works of my own. The works that are attributed to me are the works of Christ. The Bible says we will be judged according to our works. I am going to be judged by the works of Christ. If one claims their own works or OWN WILL they will be judged by their works, not Christ's. Our own works is what will be destroyed, burned out of us. When that happens we will be ONE with Christ and the Father and our wills will be that of Christ and the Father.  The old man will be gone when our WILLS are the same. The Father wants us to look to him, depend on him for all things, NOT ON OURSELVES which is we think is our own WILL.   

CHB

Actually we become subject to do the works prepared before the foundation of the world, for us to do in Christ, and we show our faith by our works, because faith without demonstration in work, is dead; but Christ presented to us a new and living way, which requires a working faith.


Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; 21 And having an high priest over the house of God; 22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

Hi Theo,

Actually it is not our faith either. The scriptures you quoted are those of the New Covenant, which did require faith.....

Hi CHB; Just one observation, about only one phrase from your post. From what you are saying I get the impression that you do not think the old testament was a testament of faith, or perhaps the old covenant was not a covenant of faith?

Here is a new covenant comment made by Paul reflecting his thoughts on the subject, in part... Rom 9:31 "But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith..."

And remember, Abraham's "FAITH" was what got Abraham "accounted righteous" by God, and he was never under the laws of Moses. Moses and his laws were under Abraham's covenant of faith.

What say you?

[Theo Book]

No Theo.
You are not clear.
You called me a "poor soul."
What you mean by that?

Well, if you are NOT a "poor soul" you are no servant of Christ, and I have indeed misplaced you among God's servants. Do I owe you an apology for that?

[Theo Book]

Also,
You said that we at Tentmaker do not serve an eternal God.
What do you mean by that?

I believe it was a reference to aiwnion referencing both Salvation AND punishment as "aiwnion" and if you deny one you deny the other. That was a topic within the parameters of the study thread.


If you will read Thayer's report on the scholars page, you will see that he reaches the conclusion about "aiwnion" NOT referencing eternal, and eternity, because the Jews had no such expectation under the Mosaic or other covenants. AND he says Christ got his understanding from the pagan religions around him. With that I disagree. Jesus was fully involved with his Father, and got all of his doctrines and understanding from the father, speaking only what the Father gave him to say. So, if thayer thinks Jesus got his understanding of Aiwnion and eternality from pagans, he must think God is a pagan.

I disagree.

[Theo Book]

I guess I should explain my above post a little more, although most may not see this the way I do.

After Christ was crucified and resurrected the apostles, including Paul, taught the New Covenant first because this is all they understood. The apostles, including Paul, preached mainly to the Jew's, Gentiles if grafted in. After Paul had the vision or whatever it was, Paul came to see that the laws was no longer in force. Paul came to see that we didn't need to be a part of Israel to be saved. He saw that we no longer should claim works of our own such as faith, baptisms, keeping of days. He saw that all was by Christ, through Christ, to Christ, and Christ working in us that did all the works, lest any man should boast. But boast they still do.

I think a new careful reading will show Paul was never against "works" done by a Christian, in fact it was Paul tho told us about the workd God designed for us to do as Christians. [Eph 2:10] What Paul was against was men who claimed to be saved by "works OF THE LAW." THAT is what Paul was so against, as the Jews attempted again and again to justify themselves because of their obedience to the outward signs of obedience to the laws of Moses, while ignoring the spiritual side of those same laws.

What say you?

[Theo Book]

I've been trying to find the order of the books to which you allude.  Is it chronological, and do you have a list of that?  Thanks.

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=3018.msg93599;topicseen#msg93599

Alright, thanks all for the info.  I'm thinking of making tabs and marking the books of my Bible 1,2,3, etc. in the order you've given.  May help me conceptualize the flow, primary audiance and intent, helping to "rightly divide the Word of truth" (2 Tim. 2:15)    

I have tried to avoid referencing the thread I was allowed to post "by special permission" but if you read it you will see how the chronological arrangfement is NOT concerned with a logical arrangement.

Not included in that thread is a proximation of the original works as provided by the Holy Spirit.
If we understand the chronology of the New Testament writings to
be approximately in the order of--
45 A.D. James
48 A.D. Galatians
50 A.D. 1st Thessalonians
51 A.D. 2nd Thessalonians
52 A.D. Mathew
54/55 1st Corinthians (Spring) 2nd Corinthians (Fall)
56 Romans
58 Luke
60 Colossians
60 Ephesians
60 Philemon
61 Philippians
61 Acts
64/65 1st Timothy; Titus; 1st Peter
66/67 2nd Peter
67/78 2nd Timothy
68-70 Hebrews; Revelation; Mark
75 Jude
85 1st; 2nd; 3rd John
96 Gospel of John

What say you?

[Beloved Servant]

No Theo.
You are not clear.
You called me a "poor soul."
What you mean by that?

Well, if you are NOT a "poor soul" you are no servant of Christ, and I have indeed misplaced you among God's servants. Do I owe you an apology for that?

Than do you include yourself in the "some poor soul" category?

[eaglesway]

I believe it was a reference to aiwnion referencing both Salvation AND punishment as "aiwnion" and if you deny one you deny the other. That was a topic within the parameters of the study thread.

 So, if thayer thinks Jesus got his understanding of Aiwnion and eternality from pagans, he must think God is a pagan.

Jesus never used the word aion or aionion. Jesus used the word "olam". He spoke Aramaic Hebrew. To this day in Hebrew olam is a constructive word with whatever is is conjoined with, for instance, olam ha-ze- meaning this world with its trials and miseries, and olam ha-ba meaning the world after death (reference: Enyclopedia Britanninca, Olam Ha-Ba). Therefore, aion and aionion derives its meaning from the Hebrew cosmology and word usages of olam, not the Greek cosmology and Aristotles usages of aion, because aion is merely a translation of the word Jesus and Paul used, which was olam. In determining truth, we must look to the frame of reference of the speakers thoughts. The usage of olam in the OT is a larger study than I will address here. It has been addressed several times on this forum and there are many things written about it in online resources. Peace , John

[Theo Book]

No Theo.
You are not clear.
You called me a "poor soul."
What you mean by that?

Well, if you are NOT a "poor soul" you are no servant of Christ, and I have indeed misplaced you among God's servants. Do I owe you an apology for that?

Than do you include yourself in the "some poor soul" category?

Among the "poorest."

[Theo Book]

I believe it was a reference to aiwnion referencing both Salvation AND punishment as "aiwnion" and if you deny one you deny the other. That was a topic within the parameters of the study thread.

 So, if thayer thinks Jesus got his understanding of Aiwnion and eternality from pagans, he must think God is a pagan.

Jesus never used the word aion or aionion. Jesus used the word "olam". He spoke Aramaic Hebrew. To this day in Hebrew olam is a constructive word with whatever is is conjoined with, for instance, olam ha-ze- meaning this world with its trials and miseries, and olam ha-ba meaning the world after death (reference: Enyclopedia Britanninca, Olam Ha-Ba). Therefore, aion and aionion derives its meaning from the Hebrew cosmology and word usages of olam, not the Greek cosmology and Aristotles usages of aion, because aion is merely a translation of the word Jesus and Paul used, which was olam. In determining truth, we must look to the frame of reference of the speakers thoughts. The usage of olam in the OT is a larger study than I will address here. It has been addressed several times on this forum and there are many things written about it in online resources. Peace , John

I think you are getting your understanding from books ABOUT the bible, instead of from the bible, my friend. Jesus knew and read Greek scriptures from the Septuagint weekly in the synagogue. And he most certainly DID use aiwn and its different forms in his teaching.

Compare the account in Luke 4:17-20, with both the Hebrew old testament, and the Greek old testament translations of Isaiah 61:1-2.


[aiwna =  acc masc sing noun = [UBS] aiwn = age; world order; eternity; from the beginning; and the strengthened form always, forever); Aeon (personified as an evil force);  existence, the present life

Mat 21:19 And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away.[aiwna accusative masculine singular noun] 


Mark 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation: [aiwniou (aiwnios) genitive neuter singular adjective]

Mark 11:14 And Jesus answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever. And his disciples heard it. [aiwna (aiwn) accusative masculine singular noun]


Luke 1:55 As he spake to our fathers, to Abraham, and to his seed for ever.
[aiwna (aiwn) accusative masculine singular noun]

John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
[aiwnion (aiwnios) accusative feminine singular adjective]

John 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
[aiwna (aiwn) accusative masculine singular noun]

John 6:58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.[aiwna (aiwn) accusaive masculine singular noun]

John 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: [aiwna (aiwn) accusative masculine singular noun] but the Son abideth ever. [aiwna (aiwn) accusative masculine singular noun]

John 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
[aiwna (aiwn) accusative masculine singular noun]

John 8:52 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.[aiwna (aiwn) accusative masculine singular noun](Never = "unto the age"]

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life [aiwnion (aiwnios) accusative feminine singular adjective]; and they shall never perish [aiwna (aiwn) accusative masculine singular noun], neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die [aiwna (aiwn) accusative masculine singular noun]. Believest thou this? ("Never die" = "unto the age."

John 12:34 The people answered him, We have heard out of the law that Christ abideth for ever: [aiwna (aiwn) accusative masculine singular noun]and how sayest thou, The Son of man must be lifted up? who is this Son of man?

John 13:8 Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet.[aiwna (aiwn) accusative masculine singular noun] Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me.("Never" = "unto the age)

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; [aiwna (aiwn) accusative masculine singular noun]
=======================================================================================================

[aiwnas = accusative masculine plural noun]   

Luke 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever [aiwnas (aiwn) accusative masculine plural noun]; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

=======================================================================================================
[aiwni = dative masculine singular noun]
Mat 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world [aiwni (aiwn) dative masculine singular noun], neither in the world to come.

Mark 10:30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the (1)world to come (2)eternal life.
(1)[aiwni (aiwn) dative masculine singular noun]; (2)[aiwnion (aiwnios) accusative feminine singular adjective]

Luke 18:30 Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the (1)world to come life (2)everlasting.(1)[aiwni (aiwn) dative masculine singular noun];(2)[aiwnion (aiwnios) accusative feminine singular adjective]
======================================================================================================
aiwnios = accusative neuter singular adjective
[UBS] aivw,nioj, on eternal (of quality rather than of time); unending,  everlasting, for all time   
Mat 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into [aiwnion (aiwnios) accusative neutral singular adjective] everlasting fire.

Mat 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have [aiwnion (aiwnios) accusative feminine singular adjective] eternal life?

Mat 19:29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit [aiwnion (aiwnios) accusative feminine singular adjective] everlasting life.

Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into [aiwnion (aiwnios) accusative neuter singular adjective] everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into [aiwnion (aiwnios) accusative feminine singular adjective] everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life [aiwnion (aiwnios) accusative feminine singular adjective] eternal.

Mark 10:17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit [aiwnion (aiwnios) accusative feminine singular adjective] eternal life?

Mark 10:30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come [aiwnion (aiwnios) accusative feminine singular adjective] eternal life.

Luke 10:25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit [aiwnion (aiwnios) accusative feminine singular adjective] eternal life?

Luke 18:18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit [aiwnion (aiwnios) accusative feminine singular adjective] eternal life?

Luke 18:30 Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come life [aiwnion (aiwnios) accusative feminine singular adjective] everlasting.

John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have [aiwnion (aiwnios) accusative feminine singular adjective] eternal life.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have [aiwnion (aiwnios) accusative feminine singular adjective] everlasting life.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath [aiwnion (aiwnios) accusative feminine singular adjective] everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall [aiwna (aiwn) accusative masculine singular noun] never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into [aiwnion (aiwnios) accusative feminine singular adjective] everlasting life.

John 4:36 And he that reapeth receiveth wages, and gathereth fruit unto life[aiwnion (aiwnios) accusative feminine singular adjective] eternal: that both he that soweth and he that reapeth may rejoice together.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath [aiwnion (aiwnios) accusative feminine singular adjective] everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have [aiwnion (aiwnios) accusative feminine singular adjective] eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

John 6:27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto [aiwnion (aiwnios) accusative feminine singular adjective] everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.


John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have [aiwnion (aiwnios) accusative feminine singular adjective] everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath [aiwnion (aiwnios) accusative feminine singular adjective]everlasting life.

John 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath [aiwnion (aiwnios) accusative feminine singular adjective] eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 10:28 And I give unto them [aiwnion (aiwnios) accusative feminine singular adjective] eternal life; and they shall [aiwna (aiwn) accusative masculine singular noun] never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

John 12:25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life [aiwnion (aiwnios) accusative feminine singular adjective] eternal.

John 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give [aiwnion (aiwnios) accusative feminine singular adjective] eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

This is just a partial list, limited to the gospels, from a list of 160 verses using 13 word-forms of the term aiwn. And there are still 70 more verses using six different forms of the word aiwn. I only used the references to the words Christ spoke.

[Beloved Servant]

No Theo.
You are not clear.
You called me a "poor soul."
What you mean by that?

Well, if you are NOT a "poor soul" you are no servant of Christ, and I have indeed misplaced you among God's servants. Do I owe you an apology for that?

Than do you include yourself in the "some poor soul" category?

Among the "poorest."

Then, in your first reference, calling me the "some poor soul" does not make any sense.

[CHB]

I've been trying to find the order of the books to which you allude.  Is it chronological, and do you have a list of that?  Thanks.

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=3018.msg93599;topicseen#msg93599

Alright, thanks all for the info.  I'm thinking of making tabs and marking the books of my Bible 1,2,3, etc. in the order you've given.  May help me conceptualize the flow, primary audiance and intent, helping to "rightly divide the Word of truth" (2 Tim. 2:15)    

I have tried to avoid referencing the thread I was allowed to post "by special permission" but if you read it you will see how the chronological arrangfement is NOT concerned with a logical arrangement.

Not included in that thread is a proximation of the original works as provided by the Holy Spirit.
If we understand the chronology of the New Testament writings to
be approximately in the order of--
45 A.D. James
48 A.D. Galatians
50 A.D. 1st Thessalonians
51 A.D. 2nd Thessalonians
52 A.D. Mathew
54/55 1st Corinthians (Spring) 2nd Corinthians (Fall)
56 Romans
58 Luke
60 Colossians
60 Ephesians
60 Philemon
61 Philippians
61 Acts
64/65 1st Timothy; Titus; 1st Peter
66/67 2nd Peter
67/78 2nd Timothy
68-70 Hebrews; Revelation; Mark
75 Jude
85 1st; 2nd; 3rd John
96 Gospel of John

What say you?

I would say "this is wrong".

CHB

[Theo Book]

No Theo.
You are not clear.
You called me a "poor soul."
What you mean by that?

Well, if you are NOT a "poor soul" you are no servant of Christ, and I have indeed misplaced you among God's servants. Do I owe you an apology for that?

Than do you include yourself in the "some poor soul" category?

Among the "poorest."

Then, in your first reference, calling me the "some poor soul" does not make any sense.

o.k. change it to read "one of the saints" and we'll both be happy.

[Theo Book]

I've been trying to find the order of the books to which you allude.  Is it chronological, and do you have a list of that?  Thanks.

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=3018.msg93599;topicseen#msg93599

Alright, thanks all for the info.  I'm thinking of making tabs and marking the books of my Bible 1,2,3, etc. in the order you've given.  May help me conceptualize the flow, primary audiance and intent, helping to "rightly divide the Word of truth" (2 Tim. 2:15)    

I have tried to avoid referencing the thread I was allowed to post "by special permission" but if you read it you will see how the chronological arrangfement is NOT concerned with a logical arrangement.

Not included in that thread is a proximation of the original works as provided by the Holy Spirit.
If we understand the chronology of the New Testament writings to
be approximately in the order of--
45 A.D. James
48 A.D. Galatians
50 A.D. 1st Thessalonians
51 A.D. 2nd Thessalonians
52 A.D. Mathew
54/55 1st Corinthians (Spring) 2nd Corinthians (Fall)
56 Romans
58 Luke
60 Colossians
60 Ephesians
60 Philemon
61 Philippians
61 Acts
64/65 1st Timothy; Titus; 1st Peter
66/67 2nd Peter
67/78 2nd Timothy
68-70 Hebrews; Revelation; Mark
75 Jude
85 1st; 2nd; 3rd John
96 Gospel of John

What say you?

I would say "this is wrong".

CHB

o.k.

And you've made a study of this for how many years?

[CHB]

Oh about 25.

CHB

[peacemaker]

I think you are getting your understanding from books ABOUT the bible, instead of from the bible, my friend. Jesus knew and read Greek scriptures from the Septuagint weekly in the synagogue.

The influence of Greek culture in the first century is clear, "Theophilus." Although Jesus would probably be best described as being multilingual (Greek and Aramaic, possibly Hebrew or Latin as well). However, Aramaic would have been his first language, whereas, the Greek or Hebrew being a second; an acquired language. But, I have one question, not that it matters much – are you by chance a Jehovah's Witnesses?

peacemaker

 

[Theo Book]

I think you are getting your understanding from books ABOUT the bible, instead of from the bible, my friend. Jesus knew and read Greek scriptures from the Septuagint weekly in the synagogue.

The influence of Greek culture in the first century is clear, "Theophilus." Although Jesus would probably be best described as being multilingual (Greek and Aramaic, possibly Hebrew or Latin as well). However, Aramaic would have been his first language, whereas, the Greek or Hebrew being a second; an acquired language. But, I have one question, not that it matters much – are you by chance a Jehovah's Witnesses?

peacemaker

Too bad the synagogues in which he frequented himself, did not have an "Aramaic scripture." Or "Hebrew" or Latin." The Hebrew scriptures were found only in the temple, while the synagogues contained the Greek Septuagint. When Jesus read from the scriptures, it was always either Hebrew/Chaldee or Greek. Why then would he "quote scripture" from texts that did not exist? THAT comes only from commentaries and books about the bible.

And since his audiences were almost exclusively Jews, why would he be presenting his Hebrew and Greek scripture lessons in Arimaic, or Latin, or any other of a number of prevalent languages of his day?

[peacemaker]

I think you are getting your understanding from books ABOUT the bible, instead of from the bible, my friend. Jesus knew and read Greek scriptures from the Septuagint weekly in the synagogue.

The influence of Greek culture in the first century is clear, "Theophilus." Although Jesus would probably be best described as being multilingual (Greek and Aramaic, possibly Hebrew or Latin as well). However, Aramaic would have been his first language, whereas, the Greek or Hebrew being a second; an acquired language. But, I have one question, not that it matters much – are you by chance a Jehovah's Witness?

Too bad the synagogues in which he frequented himself, did not have an "Aramaic scripture." Or "Hebrew" or Latin." The Hebrew scriptures were found only in the temple, while the synagogues contained the Greek Septuagint. When Jesus read from the scriptures, it was always either Hebrew/Chaldee or Greek. Why then would he "quote scripture" from texts that did not exist? THAT comes only from commentaries and books about the bible.

And since his audiences were almost exclusively Jews, why would he be presenting his Hebrew and Greek scripture lessons in Arimaic, or Latin, or any other of a number of prevalent languages of his day?

Surely, He spoke the language of the day, contextually.
You may have misinterpreted my remark because you took it out of context.
You also appeared to avoid the question?

[Paul Hazelwood]

I think you are getting your understanding from books ABOUT the bible, instead of from the bible, my friend. Jesus knew and read Greek scriptures from the Septuagint weekly in the synagogue. And he most certainly DID use aiwn and its different forms in his teaching.

Probably true , that is why aion and aionios are absolutely pertaining to periods of time that are unknown and those terms are used in the abstract as how those undetermined stretches of time will be percieved.

"That stop light took forever this morning."   In the absolute it was temporary,  in the abstract the amount of time it was going to take was undetermined while in the midst of that frame of time.  Even if I had previously known the timing of the stoplight, a failure of that timing mechanism could result, so there was no way of actually predicting with absolute certainty that it was going to change.   So the perception of time while waiting was a perception far greater than actually occured.


If you are to be held accountable for what you do, and you are to awaken to a form of correction, just how long will that be?  You can't say, no one can,  but anyone who has any amount of life experience will understand that when your in the midst of something that has ended up changing you,  it seems like it may never end.

That is just the bible showing the truth of how human beings perceive things.

[eaglesway]

And since his audiences were almost exclusively Jews, why would he be presenting his Hebrew and Greek scripture lessons in Arimaic, or Latin, or any other of a number of prevalent languages of his day?

In any case, the question is, if Jesus used the word aionion, was He thinking like a Hebrew, form the cosmology of the Hebrews, and the word olam. Or was He thinking what contemporary western scholars think when they read Plato or Aristotle. Whatever you believe Jesus was reading( Hebrew/Chaldee, Hebrew/Aramaic or Greek) the only thing that matters is what He thought, and as almost every word He ever spoke repeated or amplified the words of the prophets(the testimony of Jesus Christ is the Spirit of prophecy)- through whom the spirit of Christ had spoken prior to His birth- it is VERY safe to assume that the old testament usage of olam expresses the thought of Jesus most accurately.

[Theo Book]

And since his audiences were almost exclusively Jews, why would he be presenting his Hebrew and Greek scripture lessons in Arimaic, or Latin, or any other of a number of prevalent languages of his day?

In any case, the question is, if Jesus used the word aionion, was He thinking like a Hebrew, from the cosmology of the Hebrews, and the word olam. Or was He thinking what contemporary western scholars think when they read Plato or Aristotle. Whatever you believe Jesus was reading( Hebrew/Chaldee, Hebrew/Aramaic or Greek) the only thing that matters is what He thought, and as almost every word He ever spoke repeated or amplified the words of the prophets(the testimony of Jesus Christ is the Spirit of prophecy)- through whom the spirit of Christ had spoken prior to His birth- it is VERY safe to assume that the old testament usage of olam expresses the thought of Jesus most accurately.

And you know what Jesus was thinking, how? Since scripture tells us that every word Jesus spoke was not his own, but was given him to speak by his Father, and "For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?" [Rom 11:34]

I have always been a believer in that by which I was college trained, i.e., understand what the words of scripture are. It is quite complicated enough without pretending to know what Jesus thought INSTEAD of the words Jesus spoke. Since the Holy  Romans 11:34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?

Since the Holy Spirit saw fit to reveal scripture in the Greek new testament, I will satisfy myself with what is recorded, instead of trying to tell you what Jesus was really thinking, when he quoted old testament scriptures. There was a REASON for not publishing the new testament in Hebrew, and that was tied to changing the Hebrew understanding from old testament thought patterns, to a "new and living way."

When God wanted us to follow a Hebrew concept, he caused the Greek of the new testament to reflect many
"Hebraisms" and to include all that was pertinent to our understanding on the issue. But to ask us to try to figure out what Jesus was actually thinking.....??? I don't think so.

[eaglesway]

Theo, I am not trying to make some mystic claim here.   

   I know what Jesus was thinking by the Holy Spirit and by the overall context of the logos. It is a simple statement of where we go to best understand translation and the vagaries of it. If a person doesn t think they can understand the thoughts of the speaker.... they are just a theology student, not a disciple. To deny the many scriptures that teach the salvation of all over the translation of one greek word like aionion could be an error of serious proportions, especially if the meaning of that word is being determined in a superficial way- like the thoughts of Greek contemporaries and not the speakers primary language.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Theo, I am not trying to make some mystic claim here.   

   I know what Jesus was thinking by the Holy Spirit and by the overall context of the logos. It is a simple statement of where we go to best understand translation and the vagaries of it. If a person doesn t think they can understand the thoughts of the speaker.... they are just a theology student, not a disciple. To deny the many scriptures that teach the salvation of all over the translation of one greek word like aionion could be an error of serious proportions, especially if the meaning of that word is being determined in a superficial way- like the thoughts of Greek contemporaries and not the speakers primary language.

The problem here is that it still comes down to intepretation whether we like it or not.  I mean no offense, but I ofteb hear 2 people say they know something by the holy spirit and both points will be polar opposites, so who gets to be right.  If you know by the holky spirit then a physical point is not needed, however, you still carry the burden of proof to assert to another that you "really" heard the spirit.

Fact is I believe the holy spirit does speak to us, but it is meant for our own life, to be intepreted for our personal use, not to prove a point of view.

[Theo Book]

Theo, I am not trying to make some mystic claim here.   

   I know what Jesus was thinking by the Holy Spirit and by the overall context of the logos. It is a simple statement of where we go to best understand translation and the vagaries of it. If a person doesn t think they can understand the thoughts of the speaker.... they are just a theology student, not a disciple. To deny the many scriptures that teach the salvation of all over the translation of one greek word like aionion could be an error of serious proportions, especially if the meaning of that word is being determined in a superficial way- like the thoughts of Greek contemporaries and not the speakers primary language.

The problem here is that it still comes down to intepretation whether we like it or not.  I mean no offense, but I ofteb hear 2 people say they know something by the holy spirit and both points will be polar opposites, so who gets to be right.  If you know by the holky spirit then a physical point is not needed, however, you still carry the burden of proof to assert to another that you "really" heard the spirit.

Fact is I believe the holy spirit does speak to us, but it is meant for our own life, to be intepreted for our personal use, not to prove a point of view.

OOOH! I think I agree with THAT.  I place Holy Spirit inspiration in the same category I place miracles in my life.l do believe there have been miracles in my life, but I do not believe anyone else would consider it to be so, nor do I believe those miracles were applied to me to share with others. I am made aware by circumstances of too many time I was not only lost, but was pursuing a losing path, when God intervened in my life, in a way not pleasing to me, but he stopped me. And i am not speakiong of "respect of persons" I am speaking of times he chastises his children for their good. i believe in it.

[Theo Book]

Theo, I am not trying to make some mystic claim here.   

   I know what Jesus was thinking by the Holy Spirit and by the overall context of the logos. It is a simple statement of where we go to best understand translation and the vagaries of it. If a person doesn t think they can understand the thoughts of the speaker.... they are just a theology student, not a disciple. To deny the many scriptures that teach the salvation of all over the translation of one greek word like aionion could be an error of serious proportions, especially if the meaning of that word is being determined in a superficial way- like the thoughts of Greek contemporaries and not the speakers primary language.

Dear poor soul, I was not accusing you of making some mystic claim. I understand what it is to try to make a perspective clear to one who has a different perspective.


The problem I am having with this whole issue, is in understanding how it is that God is the source of two such opposing views.

Response #'s 2 and 87 (to reference just two of several) seem to me to be saying "God made me do it" while God clearly says "why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? 4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God." [Acts 5:3-4]

 I am not striving for some semblance of a victory here, I am trying to understand a concept that I see as foreign to the scripture.