25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS

[Theo Book]

I am responding again here to Theo Books earlier post that listed some verses about spiritual warfare.   
     

   I think it is wise to use scriptural language to discuss spiritual reality and avoid the traps of systematic theology.There are a number of things that can be learned from the types used in relationship to "Satan", snake, dust, the great dragon, etc. I appreciate them and acknowledge them.
    However, it appears to me that Jesus, Paul, Peter, Jude and John all had a view of our interaction with "the wicked one" that was much more immediate, not so concerned with origins, and very concerned with the present engagement. They wrote in terms more time specific than any pure allegory or principle can realistically address. Indeed, I have personally experienced that dealing with principalities and powers and the hosts of wickedness- as well as human enemies of the gospel "is" a part of taking His yoke upon us.
    If someone believes that all of the writings about spiritual warfare are allegorical or symbolic of spiritual principles that have been fulfilled and need not be regarded in our present walk with Christ- so be it- everyone is entitled to their opinion. My opinion is that no matter what we believe the eternal perspective is, we have to deal with spiritual realities- in our time. We have to walk, and as Jesus said, we tread on serpents and scorpions. In my opinion, anyone who does not recognize that one of the wiles of the devil is to obscure his existence and his activity is deceived by him and not walking in reality.
      Of course, walking in the Spirit, in the love of God, is the primary focus of our discipleship. We are to walk as wise as serpents and as harmless as doves. There is another spirit that now works in the sons of disobedience, we contend with the world, the flesh and the devil, and spiritual warfare is a part our discipleship in Christ. This is an evidence of whether we are overcoming- for those who have overcome within themselves are the ones who are able to overcome the devil. Jesus taught Paul all he knew and Paul considered it serious business. I would point to the record, for instance of the 7 sons of Sceva in Acts who found out the hard way what demonic activity can produce, or Paul's confrontation with the prophetess of Diana, out of whom he cast a familiar spirit and unlocked a tide of outrage and persecution in Ephesus, or the confrontation in which Jesus rescued the man possessed by Legion. I have personally seen examples of all of the above in my time as a minister of the gospel.

Finally, I say to myself and too all, when we get too lost in the definitions and perspectives of truth, we are probably not so great at walking in it.

It becomes more difficult as time progresses, to know how best to respond to discussions with which I disagree. The reason, is mostly bound up with the terminology, which as you know, represents different things to different people, who having different experiences and different backgrounds, different scholarlship accolades, and different passions, sometimes lose ourselves in the rhetoric.

I think Paul's problem with Satan was based as much on the feeling of immediacy as to the reality of "the exceeding deceitfulness of sin." Paul understood how Satan was even in his own day, raising havoc within the brotherhood of the church. How many times Paul warned, "Hey, you guys, he's here, look about you and be careful what you say because what you say, is what you teach." (I'm paraphrasing here)

Under the Old dispensation, the Hebrew nation wore their basic rhetorical bytes on their sleeves and garment borders as "phylacteries" which were designed to remind Israel of those very bytes which they produced. The Pharisees, however, enlarged their borders and hems to make it appear they were better at teaching the respective rhetorical representations by virtue of bigger garments on which to post them. Even THEY failed to comprehend the fact that they were sending a different message than they supposed by virtue of how the people perceived what they were doing.

Under the new dispensation, we are told "by their fruits you shall know them, which is different from simply displaying yourself as a fruit tree.

I have learned much from studying on this board, but still have several important issues that have not been adequately dealt with, and am trying to decide whether to address them here, or simply move on.

I like it when I read stuff like your post, but it still leaves me with unaddressed issues. If I fail to respond, it may be because I have in fact moved on, or it  may be I am simply considering a matter introduced to the thread.

Anyway, rambling aside, you are correct as to the issue of "spiritual warfare" as opposed to the carnallity of the old law. I enjoyed it.

[Beloved Servant]

Only on this board. I have seen this argument on several boards ,and am always dismayed at the number of bible students that actually think God can be insulted. He can be attacked, ignored, obeyed, disobeyed, but not insulted. THAT would require someone as strong as God, to confront him in his private space.

What do you mean by "only on this board?

[peacemaker]

The argument on this board has been that God already decided what use he was going to make of each pot, prior to making it. GOD says he waits till he sees how the pot turns out before the "if" - "then" decision is made.

He says "The timing of my telling what kind of Pot it is, is after I see whether it will obey or not."

To be perfectly honest, both sides of the equation are difficult to understand; but fraught with precious wares for those who handle them respectfully.

"It is of the Lord's mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassion fails not" (Lamentations 3:22)

An elderly woman had two large pots, each hung on the ends of a pole which she carried across her neck. One of the pots had a crack in it while the other pot was perfect and always delivered a full portion of water. At the end of the long walks from the stream to the house, the cracked pot arrived only half full. For a full two years this went on daily, with the woman bringing home only one and a half pots of water.

Of course, the perfect pot was proud of its accomplishments. But the poor cracked pot was ashamed of its own imperfections, as it could only do half of what it had been made to do. After two years of what it perceived to be bitter failure, it spoke to the woman one day by the stream.

"I am ashamed of myself, because this crack in my side causes water to leak out all the way back to your house."

The old woman smiled, "Did you notice that there are flowers on your side of the path, but not on the other pot's side?
That's because I have always known about your flaw, so I planted flower seeds on your side of the path, and every day while we walk back, you water them. For two years I have been able to pick these beautiful flowers to decorate the table. Without you being just the way you are, there would not be this beauty to grace the house."

Each of us have our own unique flaw. But it's the cracks and the flaws we each have that make our lives together, so very interesting and rewarding.

To all of my crackpot friends, have a peaceful day and remember to smell the flowers on your side of the path. It all begins with a first step, and every step is its own journey. Nothing like a change of heart!

peacemaker

I take that kinda' personal.

C.Pot

Take it for whatever it is worth to you.

Respectfully,
peacemaker

[CHB]

No more law (besides I don't fully agree with that) "be like Christ" is extremely hard to follow. Just like the laws.
At least for me it is hard. WhiteWings BlackSoul 

Hi WW,

Guess I didn't explain things very well?

What I meant was, since we are in Christ we will be like Jesus and the Father is, ONE. If we are ONE with the Father as Jesus was, we do not really have a will of our own. Our will is the Father's will. Since we are in Christ we have no more works, because it is God working in us and not us that do the works. Jesus did and does all the works that is required. Our works mean diddly squat.  Our so called will is nothing but works that will be burned up.

It's kind of like this.

I am in Christ and I am dead to sin and laws which is works. If I am dead in Christ I have no works of my own. The works that are attributed to me are the works of Christ. The Bible says we will be judged according to our works. I am going to be judged by the works of Christ. If one claims their own works or OWN WILL they will be judged by their works, not Christ's. Our own works is what will be destroyed, burned out of us. When that happens we will be ONE with Christ and the Father and our wills will be that of Christ and the Father.  The old man will be gone when our WILLS are the same. The Father wants us to look to him, depend on him for all things, NOT ON OURSELVES which is we think is our own WILL.   

CHB

Actually we become subject to do the works prepared before the foundation of the world, for us to do in Christ, and we show our faith by our works, because faith without demonstration in work, is dead; but Christ presented to us a new and living way, which requires a working faith.


Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; 21 And having an high priest over the house of God; 22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

Hi Theo,

Actually it is not our faith either. The scriptures you quoted are those of the New Covenant, which did require faith, baptism, keeping of the Lord's supper, but the final revelation of what Paul came to see with the Mystery is that we "live by the faith of the Son of God (Gal. 2:20). (Eph. 5:2) "Looking to Jesus the author and finisher of our faith". It is not our faith that counts but Christ faith.  "For by grace are you saved through faith; and THAT NOT OF YOURSELVES it is the gift of God"  (Eph. 2:8). So that faith that we think we conjure up all by ourselves really is the faith of Christ.  

CHB

[Theo Book]

The argument on this board has been that God already decided what use he was going to make of each pot, prior to making it. GOD says he waits till he sees how the pot turns out before the "if" - "then" decision is made.

He says "The timing of my telling what kind of Pot it is, is after I see whether it will obey or not."

To be perfectly honest, both sides of the equation are difficult to understand; but fraught with precious wares for those who handle them respectfully.

"It is of the Lord's mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassion fails not" (Lamentations 3:22)

An elderly woman had two large pots, each hung on the ends of a pole which she carried across her neck. One of the pots had a crack in it while the other pot was perfect and always delivered a full portion of water. At the end of the long walks from the stream to the house, the cracked pot arrived only half full. For a full two years this went on daily, with the woman bringing home only one and a half pots of water.

Of course, the perfect pot was proud of its accomplishments. But the poor cracked pot was ashamed of its own imperfections, as it could only do half of what it had been made to do. After two years of what it perceived to be bitter failure, it spoke to the woman one day by the stream.

"I am ashamed of myself, because this crack in my side causes water to leak out all the way back to your house."

The old woman smiled, "Did you notice that there are flowers on your side of the path, but not on the other pot's side?
That's because I have always known about your flaw, so I planted flower seeds on your side of the path, and every day while we walk back, you water them. For two years I have been able to pick these beautiful flowers to decorate the table. Without you being just the way you are, there would not be this beauty to grace the house."

Each of us have our own unique flaw. But it's the cracks and the flaws we each have that make our lives together, so very interesting and rewarding.

To all of my crackpot friends, have a peaceful day and remember to smell the flowers on your side of the path. It all begins with a first step, and every step is its own journey. Nothing like a change of heart!

peacemaker

I take that kinda' personal.

C.Pot

Take it for whatever it is worth to you.

Respectfully,
peacemaker

o.k. I'll use that parable about the old woman and her "cracked pot" in my lesson for Sunday. Loved it.

[Theo Book]

No more law (besides I don't fully agree with that) "be like Christ" is extremely hard to follow. Just like the laws.
At least for me it is hard. WhiteWings BlackSoul 

Hi WW,

Guess I didn't explain things very well?

What I meant was, since we are in Christ we will be like Jesus and the Father is, ONE. If we are ONE with the Father as Jesus was, we do not really have a will of our own. Our will is the Father's will. Since we are in Christ we have no more works, because it is God working in us and not us that do the works. Jesus did and does all the works that is required. Our works mean diddly squat.  Our so called will is nothing but works that will be burned up.

It's kind of like this.

I am in Christ and I am dead to sin and laws which is works. If I am dead in Christ I have no works of my own. The works that are attributed to me are the works of Christ. The Bible says we will be judged according to our works. I am going to be judged by the works of Christ. If one claims their own works or OWN WILL they will be judged by their works, not Christ's. Our own works is what will be destroyed, burned out of us. When that happens we will be ONE with Christ and the Father and our wills will be that of Christ and the Father.  The old man will be gone when our WILLS are the same. The Father wants us to look to him, depend on him for all things, NOT ON OURSELVES which is we think is our own WILL.   

CHB

Actually we become subject to do the works prepared before the foundation of the world, for us to do in Christ, and we show our faith by our works, because faith without demonstration in work, is dead; but Christ presented to us a new and living way, which requires a working faith.


Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; 21 And having an high priest over the house of God; 22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

Hi Theo,

Actually it is not our faith either. The scriptures you quoted are those of the New Covenant, which did require faith, baptism, keeping of the Lord's supper, but the final revelation of what Paul came to see with the Mystery is that we "live by the faith of the Son of God (Gal. 2:20). (Eph. 5:2) "Looking to Jesus the author and finisher of our faith". It is not our faith that counts but Christ faith.  "For by grace are you saved through faith; and THAT NOT OF YOURSELVES it is the gift of God"  (Eph. 2:8). So that faith that we think we conjure up all by ourselves really is the faith of Christ.  

CHB

Yes, I know what you mean. We must have the same quality of faith as that displayed by Jesus himself, absolute and without reservation. He trusted his Father completely and with no problems of doubt.

[Theo Book]

Only on this board. I have seen this argument on several boards ,and am always dismayed at the number of bible students that actually think God can be insulted. He can be attacked, ignored, obeyed, disobeyed, but not insulted. THAT would require someone as strong as God, to confront him in his private space.

What do you mean by "only on this board?

Sorry! I thought I had made it clear. "I have seen this argument ON SEVERAL BOARDS, and am always dismayed at the number of bible students that actually think God can be insulted. He can be attacked, ignored, obeyed, disobeyed but not insulted. THAT would require someone as strong as God, to confront him in his private space."

[jabcat]

CHB - "Actually it is not our faith either"

Excellent C.  It's His faith working through us.

"For it's by grace are you saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, lest any man should boast".  

Author/Finisher - predestined unto good works - He Who has begun a good work in you will complete it.  Thank you Father.

[Theo Book]

CHB - "Actually it is not our faith either"

Excellent C.  It's His faith working through us.

"For it's by grace are you saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, lest any man should boast".  

Author/Finisher - predestined unto good works - He Who has begun a good work in you will complete it.  Thank you Father.

I think if you follow the pronouns on this one, you might miss something. While it is true, faith is not "of yourselves" still it is YOUR faith that is proved by YOUR works; James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Comment?

[Beloved Servant]

No Theo.
You are not clear.
You called me a "poor soul."
What you mean by that?

[Beloved Servant]

Also,
You said that we at Tentmaker do not serve an eternal God.
What do you mean by that?

[WhiteWings]

No Theo.
You are not clear.
You called me a "poor soul."
What you mean by that?

^KJVMat 5:3  Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Doesn't sound very bad to me... 

[jabcat]

CHB - "Actually it is not our faith either"

Excellent C.  It's His faith working through us.

"For it's by grace are you saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, lest any man should boast".  

Author/Finisher - predestined unto good works - He Who has begun a good work in you will complete it.  Thank you Father.

I think if you follow the pronouns on this one, you might miss something. While it is true, faith is not "of yourselves" still it is YOUR faith that is proved by YOUR works; James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Comment?

Good question, that's a bit of "holy battleground", isn't it.  It can appear a contradiction.  But rightly divided, there's no contradiction between Paul and James.  I believe good works are a result of Christ working in and through the saved believer's regenerated heart.  A product, and evidence of the new spiritual birth ...

Saving faith will produce a changed life. A person who is saved is trusting Christ alone for their salvation, not their works (ie Romans).  And I believe that faith is given, not conjured up.  The devils believe and tremble, but they're not redeemed.

However, once saved by grace alone, a true Christian will want to and be inclined toward practicing good works such as feeding the poor (ie James). Not to earn salvation -- which they already have -- but because they are saved. (see Ephesians 2:8-10).  The changed heart, the Spirit's work within.

Perhaps James is warning of a belief in facts (i.e., head knowledge without a new birth) -- a type of faith that never results in a changed life?

Saving faith comes when someone stops trusting their own goodness or work (Phil. 2:8) and puts all their trust in Christ for salvation. And this type of faith will naturally exhibit good works.

I do believe we are responsible for obedience, surrender, entering into His "rest" (total trust in Him).  But if it's OUR works through our effort alone, then how can Jesus be both the Originator and Completer of our faith?  How can the scriptures say that "He who has begun a good work in you will complete it"?  This is not some sort of "do what you want/easy believism".  It cost our Lord His life, and His work in and on behalf of a believer is a very serious and effective thing.  It will show evidence and produce fruit - His fruit.  Believe me, I do know that it's a hard thing to let go of our own struggling and just keep pressing into Him, His righteousness, His goodness, His strength.  I've been one of the "best" (worst) struggling Christians you've even seen.  But my own efforts at goodness failed miserably.  I'm having to learn by my mistakes and failures (read, sin).

Anyway, that's kind'a how I see it.  Anyone else?  

[jabcat]

P.S.  It just hit me;  seriously, when we stand before the Master, are we going to say "look at everything I did in your name.  Aren't these works good?"

Or best to say "thank you Father for everything you've done for me - for placing your Spirit in me and working through this vessel that is only worthy by the blood of Jesus"?

The crowns belong at His feet.

[rosered]

 
 
  Jesus  tell us Himself ...
 
 Rev 2:13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, [even] where Satan's seat [is]: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas [was] my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.
 
  Believe that the Lord gives us a measure of His faith and how we use it or not use it makes a difference
    
  without Faith it is impossible to please  God  , thats how Jesus pleased His Father  ...
 
  and the works of Faith are what James is speaking of , the same works  that Jesus did  and greater works shall you do beccause I go to the Father 
 Jam 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.   its   faith believing  that the  good works are done in Christ
  believe for the works sake ....  in other words have faith in the Living God that has living works of the Lords righteousness  
  not dead works of your own  righteousness
 
    ChB , you blessed me in these posts !!! praise God !!  

[jabcat]

Yes rosie, we're all given a measure of faith.  

Sorry, don't mean to spam, but this is one of the main topics I ponder over.  I was thinking some more -

I'm not advocating lawless, carefree sinful living so that "grace may more abound".  I just think there's perhaps a bit of a mystery involved - somehow the strength and actual outcome is ensured by God.  Paul said he was unable to do the things he wanted to do, and that Jesus was His deliverer.  Also, when he talked about doing a good thing, he said it's "I, yet not I".  

[CHB]

P.S.  It just hit me;  seriously, when we stand before the Master, are we going to say "look at everything I did in your name.  Aren't these works good?"

Or best to say "thank you Father for everything you've done for me - for placing your Spirit in me and working through this vessel that is only worthy by the blood of Jesus"?

The crowns belong at His feet.

Amen jabcat, this is kind of what I have been trying to say in my post about works not being our works but Christ that dwells in us. 

The epistles of Paul should be positioned after James, Peter, and John's epistles, this is why they seem to contridict each other. The thing is, Peter, James and John and the other apostles were comissioned to preach to the Jew's, Paul and Barnabas went to the Gentiles (Acts 13:46-47)  (Acts 22:21).

CHB 

[jabcat]

Nah, you said it well.  Our posts just complemented each other/fit together well.  

I've been trying to find the order of the books to which you allude.  Is it chronological, and do you have a list of that?  Thanks.

[CHB]

I guess I should explain my above post a little more, although most may not see this the way I do.

After Christ was crucified and resurrected the apostles, including Paul, taught the New Covenant first because this is all they understood. The apostles, including Paul, preached mainly to the Jew's, Gentiles if grafted in. After Paul had the vision or whatever it was, Paul came to see that the laws was no longer in force. Paul came to see that we didn't need to be a part of Israel to be saved. He saw that we no longer should claim works of our own such as faith, baptisms, keeping of days. He saw that all was by Christ, through Christ, to Christ, and Christ working in us that did all the works, lest any man should boast. But boast they still do.

Paul stopped teaching the Jew's and New Covenant and went to the Gentiles.  This caused Paul much trouble with the Jew and others and landed him in prison time after time. Gentiles have never been under any Covenants or laws, these were only for Israelites.

Paul was given the final revelation of salvation. The epistles of the other apostles was directed to the Israelites which included the teaching of New Covenant. Paul came to see and understand the "Mystery which had been hid in God since the foundation of the world". This knowledge is what God had in mind from the beginning but he hadn't revealed it to anyone until Paul, "which is Christ in you" (Col. 1:27).  We are all in Christ, only thing is most don't realize it.  This is what Paul referred to in (1Cor.3:13:-15). All the works that we claim to have will be destroyed and only the works that Jesus accomplished in  us will remain.  (1Cor. 3:11) For other foundation can no man lay THAN THAT IS LAID, WHICH IS JESUS CHRIST.  

CHB

[CHB]

THE LAW         49 books 7x7      New Testament
1. Genesis                                     Matthew         
2. Exodus                                      Mark
3. Leviticus                                    Luke
4. Numbers                                    John   
5. Deuteronomy                              Acts
THE PROPHETS                               James
6. Joshua/Judges                            1&2 Peter
7. The Book of Kingdoms                 1,2,3 John
8. Isaiah                                        Jude
9. Jeremiah                                    Romans
10. Ezekiel                                     1,2 Corinthians
11. The Twelve                               Galatians
THE WRITINGS (PSALMS)                Ephesians
12. Psalms                                     Philipians
13. Proverbs                                  Colossians
14. Job                                         1,2 Thess.
15. Song of Songs                          Hebrews
16. Ruth                                        1,2 Timothy
17. Lamentations                            Titus
18. Ecclesiastes                              Philmon
19. Esther                                      Revelation
20. Daniel
21. Ezra/Nehemiah
22. The Book of Chronicles

[gregoryfl]

Nah, you said it well.  Our posts just complemented each other/fit together well.  

I've been trying to find the order of the books to which you allude.  Is it chronological, and do you have a list of that?  Thanks.

I have a Bible that has that order, (The Bible In Its Original Order) and the translation I am working on will have that same order. It is not chronological, but is based on the the order of teaching, to the Jew first, also to the Greek.

Ron

[gregoryfl]

The simple way I tend to look at the whole issue of faith, whether it is the Lord's or ours, is that it is both, just as so many either/or issues tend to be.

The source of the faith is Christ, but in his giving it to me, it then becomes mine. I am not the source of it, but I can call it mine, as well as his, since I possess it now, yet he is the one who gave it to me and uses it through me.

Ron

[eaglesway]

No problem Theo

Sometimes I read a question and feel led to respond in a more or less comprehensive way for some reason. Perhaps it is the Holy Spirit in me, perhaps it is just my own interests, but I try not to be invested in the responses beyond
that of fellowship in the Spirit. "The wind blows where it wills and you hear the sound of it, but you know not where it is going, or from where it came so it is with everyone who is born of the spirit." If we know exactly what we are doing all the time we probably are not walking in the Spirit. Peace, John

[WhiteWings]

I've been trying to find the order of the books to which you allude.  Is it chronological, and do you have a list of that?  Thanks.

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=3018.msg93599;topicseen#msg93599

[CHB]

Nah, you said it well.  Our posts just complemented each other/fit together well.  

I've been trying to find the order of the books to which you allude.  Is it chronological, and do you have a list of that?  Thanks.

I have a Bible that has that order, (The Bible In Its Original Order) and the translation I am working on will have that same order. It is not chronological, but is based on the the order of teaching, to the Jew first, also to the Greek.

Ron

That sounds good, when will it be available?

About faith:  I guess you could say the faith that was given to us is ours but I don't like to refer to it as mine because it is by the faith of Christ that we are saved. It was by his faith and believing in the Father to raise him from the dead that saved me. Christ had faith that the Father would resurrect him from the dead that is why he was willing to die for us.

CHB