Author Topic: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS  (Read 71872 times)

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Online jabcat

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #475 on: April 02, 2010, 01:39:28 AM »
Here's a little outline I sort of think of things within;

Jesus was slain from the foundation of the world.
Man sins.
Jesus' sacrifice bridges the gap to the Father.
We live, learn, some are saved in this lifetime
There is a judgment and corrective discipline.
Every knee bows, every tongue confesses.
Everyone is brought into the family, all reconciled.
God is All in All.

That leaves about how many thousand doctrinal details in the middle of all that?  And I don't believe we'll all see it the same until we're no longer seeing through a glass darkly.  

Isn't that the bottom line - does most of humanity end up in a literal burning hell forever, or not?  

I believe exactly whatever specific details God uses to accomplish it, He's ultimately in control and says He will reconcile His creation back to Himself.   James.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2010, 01:57:42 AM by jabcat »

Offline CHB

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #476 on: April 02, 2010, 02:24:21 AM »
Quote from: WhiteWings
No more law (besides I don't fully agree with that) "be like Christ" is extremely hard to follow. Just like the laws.
At least for me it is hard. WhiteWings BlackSoul 

Hi WW,

Guess I didn't explain things very well?

What I meant was, since we are in Christ we will be like Jesus and the Father is, ONE. If we are ONE with the Father as Jesus was, we do not really have a will of our own. Our will is the Father's will. Since we are in Christ we have no more works, because it is God working in us and not us that do the works. Jesus did and does all the works that is required. Our works mean diddly squat.  Our so called will is nothing but works that will be burned up. :2c:

It's kind of like this.

I am in Christ and I am dead to sin and laws which is works. If I am dead in Christ I have no works of my own. The works that are attributed to me are the works of Christ. The Bible says we will be judged according to our works. I am going to be judged by the works of Christ. If one claims their own works or OWN WILL they will be judged by their works, not Christ's. Our own works is what will be destroyed, burned out of us. When that happens we will be ONE with Christ and the Father and our wills will be that of Christ and the Father.  The old man will be gone when our WILLS are the same. The Father wants us to look to him, depend on him for all things, NOT ON OURSELVES which is we think is our own WILL.   

CHB

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #477 on: April 02, 2010, 02:47:19 AM »
Quote from: WhiteWings
No more law (besides I don't fully agree with that) "be like Christ" is extremely hard to follow. Just like the laws.
At least for me it is hard. WhiteWings BlackSoul 

Hi WW,

Guess I didn't explain things very well?

What I meant was, since we are in Christ we will be like Jesus and the Father is, ONE. If we are ONE with the Father as Jesus was, we do not really have a will of our own. Our will is the Father's will. Since we are in Christ we have no more works, because it is God working in us and not us that do the works. Jesus did and does all the works that is required. Our works mean diddly squat.  Our so called will is nothing but works that will be burned up. :2c:

It's kind of like this.

I am in Christ and I am dead to sin and laws which is works. If I am dead in Christ I have no works of my own. The works that are attributed to me are the works of Christ. The Bible says we will be judged according to our works. I am going to be judged by the works of Christ. If one claims their own works or OWN WILL they will be judged by their works, not Christ's. Our own works is what will be destroyed, burned out of us. When that happens we will be ONE with Christ and the Father and our wills will be that of Christ and the Father.  The old man will be gone when our WILLS are the same. The Father wants us to look to him, depend on him for all things, NOT ON OURSELVES which is we think is our own WILL.   

CHB

Actually we become subject to do the works prepared before the foundation of the world, for us to do in Christ, and we show our faith by our works, because faith without demonstration in work, is dead; but Christ presented to us a new and living way, which requires a working faith.


Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; 21 And having an high priest over the house of God; 22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #478 on: April 02, 2010, 02:49:54 AM »



As do I, always.
My biggest dismay is when I pour out my heart in effort to be understood only to have some poor soul post to me that I have insulted his God or hurt his feelings. It is refreshing to deal with you.



Theo.
Am I that "poor soul" of which you speak?

Theo Book

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #479 on: April 02, 2010, 03:08:57 AM »



As do I, always.
My biggest dismay is when I pour out my heart in effort to be understood only to have some poor soul post to me that I have insulted his God or hurt his feelings. It is refreshing to deal with you.



Theo.
Am I that "poor soul" of which you speak?


Only on this board. I have seen this argument on several boards ,and am always dismayed at the number of bible students that actually think God can be insulted. He can be attacked, ignored, obeyed, disobeyed, but not insulted. THAT would require someone as strong as God, to confront him in his private space.

« Last Edit: April 02, 2010, 05:05:22 PM by Theo Book »

Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #480 on: April 02, 2010, 03:13:01 AM »
That was just double-talk.
Please, yes or no?

Offline Pierac

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #481 on: April 02, 2010, 03:17:17 AM »
Gen 3:1  Now the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made.  And he said to the woman, "Indeed, has God said, 'You shall not eat from any tree of the garden'?"

Then you need to understand the Serpentů was made! The Serpent did not make himself,  or his nature!  Job teaches you this! (Job 1:6 -7)

Does the verse really mean satan was part of the beasts of the field? It almost sounds satan is not part of that "beasts group" but Adam and Eve are because first we are told how smart satan is and some verse later smart satan tricked dumb Adam and Eve (of the field?)
(Note that Jewish scholars see humans as beasts with an extra soul/spirit)

But I think it's not really important if satan is part of the 'made group' in this verse because everyone (I think) agrees God made everything.
The main debate is if satan was created evil or he turned evil by himself (fallen)
 :dontknow:

Depends if you want scripture to harmonize?

Gen 3:14  The LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this, cursed are you above all livestock and above all beasts of the field; on your belly you shall go, and dust you shall eat all the days of your life.

What creature eats dust?

1Co 15:47  The first man was from the earth, a man of dust.

1Pe 5:8   Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.

Devour? If not by the consumption of actual flesh then How?  I think you already know.

Who is this serpent of the field?

Job 26:13  By his spirit he (GOD) hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent.

Rev 12:9  And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient744  serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world--he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.
 
G744   αρχαιος   archaios

Thayer Definition:
1)   that has been from the beginning,  original

1Jo 3:8  Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.

Indeed, sinning from the beginning, not after the fall of any angel or man!

Rev 20:2  And he seized the dragon, that ancient744 serpent,who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years,

Satan is a created part of God's plan!

Now the serpent was more crafty than any other beast of the field that the LORD God had made. :wink:

Paul 







Offline Beloved Servant

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #482 on: April 02, 2010, 03:20:12 AM »
Yes Paul,
and very crafty in his choice words, isn't he?


Offline eaglesway

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #483 on: April 02, 2010, 06:31:26 AM »
To everyone concerned:
    I was unaware that the free will/sov debate was banned....or that free will was a hot button word. In the post was trying to make a point about the necessity of spiritual warfare in day to day living- not an overall treatise on free will vs sovereignity of God. I would not want anyone to think I was making a point for any systematic theology in that post. Sometimes, because of time constraints, my writing is less refined than at others, so if I offended anyone I apologize. Although God is sovereign, I am working out my own salvation with fear and trembling. I am subject to the limits of my imperfections and expect everyone to test all things. I am also willing to be subject to the rules of the board. So, Grace and Peace, John
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Online jabcat

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #484 on: April 02, 2010, 07:08:51 AM »
 :thumbsup:

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #485 on: April 02, 2010, 07:35:50 AM »
I don't understand the first part.  I didn't use either banned terms once, and I believe I demonstrated that many concepts actually can be discussed by talking about the issues and scriptures involved, not just focusing on distacting loaded terms and phrases.
:msealed:
Well I assumed it was ok that way. I did use the banned terms but thought I made them very neutral by adding 0-100% to them.
Meaning everyone can pick his/her prefered value in that range.
If such a writing style is not allowed I'll edit my message.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #486 on: April 02, 2010, 07:51:23 AM »
Here's a little outline I sort of think of things within;
That leaves about how many thousand doctrinal details in the middle of all that?  And I don't believe we'll all see it the same until we're no longer seeing through a glass darkly.
A accurate list but unfortunately a useless list

Jesus was slain from the foundation of the world.
=> All agree.
=> But not on the amount of people He did this for. 2-100%
=> Not of the efficiency of it. 2-100%


Man sins.
=> All agree


Jesus' sacrifice bridges the gap to the Father.
=> All agree but not on the amount who cross that bridge. 2-100%



We live, learn, some are saved in this lifetime
=> No agreement.
=> Some believe 2% is saved now and 98% never.
=> Some believe 100% is saved now.
=> Some believe x% is saved now and 100-x% is saved later.


There is a judgment and corrective discipline.
=> I think all agree. But not when it takes place and what the severity, effect and duration is

Every knee bows, every tongue confesses.
=> All agree but not if it will do you any good.


Everyone is brought into the family, all reconciled.
=> Most disagree.

God is All in All.
=> I wonder how ETs and EDs see that.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #487 on: April 02, 2010, 07:59:11 AM »
Quote from: WhiteWings
No more law (besides I don't fully agree with that) "be like Christ" is extremely hard to follow. Just like the laws.
At least for me it is hard. WhiteWings BlackSoul 

Hi WW,

Guess I didn't explain things very well?

What I meant was, since we are in Christ we will be like Jesus and the Father is, ONE. If we are ONE with the Father as Jesus was, we do not really have a will of our own. Our will is the Father's will. Since we are in Christ we have no more works, because it is God working in us and not us that do the works. Jesus did and does all the works that is required. Our works mean diddly squat.  Our so called will is nothing but works that will be burned up. :2c:
Ok, but how many are in Christ? Some are. Some partly. Some on the outside but ad least loojing at Him. Some turned their backs. Some even run away.
All on this forum seem to do things to get/stay in Christ. I'm not speaking about following all laws of Moses but other things. That feels like work too sometimes. Love your neighbor can be lots of hard work in many cases. (for me ). Being one-in-one might be great and easy. But getting to that point.....
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Online jabcat

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #488 on: April 02, 2010, 08:05:19 AM »
I don't understand the first part.  I didn't use either banned terms once, and I believe I demonstrated that many concepts actually can be discussed by talking about the issues and scriptures involved, not just focusing on distacting loaded terms and phrases.
:msealed:


I don't think you're understanding what I'm saying, Tony.  What I'm saying is, I don't understand why you think this can't be discussed - Quote WW - "James, that's one of the things that can't be really discussed."  The point of what I said is that I believe it certainly can be discussed without using and getting locked in on certain phrases and terms, and I stated that I believed I had demonstrated that to be the case with my own post.   I may not have been clear enough, but that's what I was trying to get across.  That I believe the topic could be discussed all day long, the ins and outs, scriptures, concepts, different sides of the issue, without ever narrowing it down to just a battle of certain terms.  And that in response to you saying "it can't be discussed".  However, maybe I misunderstood what you meant.   :mblush:  If so, my mistake.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2010, 08:31:24 AM by jabcat »

Offline peacemaker

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #489 on: April 02, 2010, 08:11:00 AM »
The argument on this board has been that God already decided what use he was going to make of each pot, prior to making it. GOD says he waits till he sees how the pot turns out before the "if" - "then" decision is made.

He says "The timing of my telling what kind of Pot it is, is after I see whether it will obey or not."

To be perfectly honest, both sides of the equation are difficult to understand; but fraught with precious wares for those who handle them respectfully.

"It is of the Lord's mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassion fails not" (Lamentations 3:22)

An elderly woman had two large pots, each hung on the ends of a pole which she carried across her neck. One of the pots had a crack in it while the other pot was perfect and always delivered a full portion of water. At the end of the long walks from the stream to the house, the cracked pot arrived only half full. For a full two years this went on daily, with the woman bringing home only one and a half pots of water.

Of course, the perfect pot was proud of its accomplishments. But the poor cracked pot was ashamed of its own imperfections, as it could only do half of what it had been made to do. After two years of what it perceived to be bitter failure, it spoke to the woman one day by the stream.

"I am ashamed of myself, because this crack in my side causes water to leak out all the way back to your house."

The old woman smiled, "Did you notice that there are flowers on your side of the path, but not on the other pot's side?
That's because I have always known about your flaw, so I planted flower seeds on your side of the path, and every day while we walk back, you water them. For two years I have been able to pick these beautiful flowers to decorate the table. Without you being just the way you are, there would not be this beauty to grace the house."


Each of us have our own unique flaw. But it's the cracks and the flaws we each have that make our lives together, so very interesting and rewarding.

To all of my crackpot friends, have a peaceful day and remember to smell the flowers on your side of the path. It all begins with a first step, and every step is its own journey. Nothing like a change of heart!

peacemaker

Online jabcat

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #490 on: April 02, 2010, 08:15:17 AM »
Here's a little outline I sort of think of things within;
That leaves about how many thousand doctrinal details in the middle of all that?  And I don't believe we'll all see it the same until we're no longer seeing through a glass darkly.
A accurate list but unfortunately a useless list


Maybe useless to some or many, but maybe a good starting point for a person here or there that are ready/able to hear.   :dontknow:  Makes sense to me, and God's helping me fill in the "blanks" as I go.  And my own personal understandings/revelation on some of those doctrinal details mixed within the outline will likely change from time to time as God clears different things up for me.  

And yes, many doctrinal issues that many good, honest people just understand differently.  That is part of why I personally believe in stating something, maybe trying to explain it/clarify it a time or two, then realize that in the end God's in control and He will reveal what and to whom He chooses.  I can't make anybody understand anything.

I may say something that personally makes a world of sense (like my list) that just from my own perspective, that's the way I visualize it.  It may bounce off someone else and mean very little or nothing to them, and vice versa.  Glass darkly, all at different places in our walk - and I believe many things we won't really completely understand until we see Him face to face.   :2c:
« Last Edit: April 02, 2010, 08:24:01 AM by jabcat »

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #491 on: April 02, 2010, 08:24:17 AM »
Gen 3:1  Now the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made.  And he said to the woman, "Indeed, has God said, 'You shall not eat from any tree of the garden'?"

Then you need to understand the Serpentů was made! The Serpent did not make himself,  or his nature!  Job teaches you this! (Job 1:6 -7)

Does the verse really mean satan was part of the beasts of the field? It almost sounds satan is not part of that "beasts group" but Adam and Eve are because first we are told how smart satan is and some verse later smart satan tricked dumb Adam and Eve (of the field?)
(Note that Jewish scholars see humans as beasts with an extra soul/spirit)

But I think it's not really important if satan is part of the 'made group' in this verse because everyone (I think) agrees God made everything.
The main debate is if satan was created evil or he turned evil by himself (fallen)
 :dontknow:

Depends if you want scripture to harmonize?
Where shall I begin...  :winkgrin:
I agree with all your verses. I agree on satan/snake/dust etc.
But for me it proves nothing.
For example your post doesn't answer:
a] When was the beginning?
b] Satan is cursed to eat dust. That doesn't prove he always ate dust.
c] Was he part of the beasts in the field. I really don't see anything conclusive about that in the verses.

BTW I mentioned fallen. That doesn't mean I do or don't agree with the fallen angel theory.
I only wanted to point out that there is no proof of anything in the the "sepent tricks eve" verses.
For me the only thing that's clear (from those verses) is:
a] Serpent = smarter that many
b] Serpent = sinner for a very long time
c] Serpent succesfully tricked Eve
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #492 on: April 02, 2010, 08:32:08 AM »
I don't understand the first part.  I didn't use either banned terms once, and I believe I demonstrated that many concepts actually can be discussed by talking about the issues and scriptures involved, not just focusing on distacting loaded terms and phrases.
:msealed:


I don't think you're understanding what I'm saying, Tony.  What I'm saying is, I don't understand why you think this can't be discussed - Quote WW - "James, that's one of the things that can't be really discussed."  The point of what I said is that I believe it certainly can be discussed without using and getting locked in on certain phrases and terms, and I stated that I believed I had demonstrated that to be the case with my own post.
I still have no clue what you are talking about James.
Let me say 3 things.
a] If any of my posted used wrong wording hit the delete button.
b] Using a synonym for a word is still the same. "James you are a thief." "James you steal." Does one sound better or worse.

I did already forget the third thing I wanted to say. No worries. Enough things to chat about  :icon_jokercolor:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #493 on: April 02, 2010, 08:39:42 AM »
Here's a little outline I sort of think of things within;
That leaves about how many thousand doctrinal details in the middle of all that?  And I don't believe we'll all see it the same until we're no longer seeing through a glass darkly.
A accurate list but unfortunately a useless list


Maybe useless to some or many, but maybe a good starting point for a person here or there that are ready/able to hear.   :dontknow:  
I think ETs and EDs are just as willing to hear as URs. They all use scripture to prove points. I think that most people in the mentioned groups have no hidden agendas. Likely all 3 groups cherish your list because it proves their point. :winkgrin:
So all that are very willing to hear, all hear different things...
« Last Edit: April 02, 2010, 09:00:34 AM by WhiteWings »
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Online jabcat

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #494 on: April 02, 2010, 08:42:16 AM »
Here's a little outline I sort of think of things within;
That leaves about how many thousand doctrinal details in the middle of all that?  And I don't believe we'll all see it the same until we're no longer seeing through a glass darkly.
A accurate list but unfortunately a useless list


Maybe useless to some or many, but maybe a good starting point for a person here or there that are ready/able to hear.   :dontknow:  
I think ETs and EDs are just as willing to hear as URs. They all use scripture to prove points. I think that most people in the mentioned groups have no hidden agendas. Likely all 3 groups cherish your list because it proves their point. :winkgrin:
So even that are very willing to hear all hear different things...

Yep, good points.  Fits nicely with this that I said - "That is part of why I personally believe in stating something, maybe trying to explain it/clarify it a time or two, then realize that in the end God's in control and He will reveal what and to whom He chooses.  I can't make anybody understand anything."

Online jabcat

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #495 on: April 02, 2010, 08:58:12 AM »
I don't understand the first part.  I didn't use either banned terms once, and I believe I demonstrated that many concepts actually can be discussed by talking about the issues and scriptures involved, not just focusing on distacting loaded terms and phrases.
:msealed:


I don't think you're understanding what I'm saying, Tony.  What I'm saying is, I don't understand why you think this can't be discussed - Quote WW - "James, that's one of the things that can't be really discussed."  The point of what I said is that I believe it certainly can be discussed without using and getting locked in on certain phrases and terms, and I stated that I believed I had demonstrated that to be the case with my own post.
I still have no clue what you are talking about James.
Let me say 3 things.
a] If any of my posted used wrong wording hit the delete button.
b] Using a synonym for a word is still the same. "James you are a thief." "James you steal." Does one sound better or worse.

I did already forget the third thing I wanted to say. No worries. Enough things to chat about  :icon_jokercolor:

Am I talking pig-latin again?  :mlaugh:  Hey, I know what I mean!  

Alright, I'll try one more time, then maybe you're right, there's other stuff to talk about.  :)
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I said this:  

"Can I make an observation as a member here and not a mod? (I'll go by the rules )

If we assumed, just for the sake of reasoning things through, that humans TOTALLY get their own way in this lifetime, that it's TOTALLY up to us to make ALL the right decisions - that we not only plan our way but ALSO direct our own steps -that all our choices are TOTALLY within our own power and without ANY set limitations....

Then, when we stand before God, our deeds are judged, and we're found wanting - would that really mean;

that any works of ours that are wood, hay, stubble, won't be burned;
that we won't be saved as by fire;
that God is unable or unwilling that none (the person, the spirit) should perish;
that every knee won't bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Master - IN the Holy Spirit;
that even though He was lifted up, He won't indeed draw everyone to Himself;
that even as in Adam all died, in Christ will all be made alive;
that 'destruction' of the flesh will not be a part of the spirit being saved;
that those who chose the broad way still won't "enter in" through the way of destruction;
that God really doesn't work all things according to the counsel of his will (THELEMA = INTENT);
that the "kings of the earth" (the saints) really won't be bringing their treasures into the city that has gates open day and night;
that all nations of the earth won't be blessed;
that when God's judgment is upon the earth the people will learn righteousness;
that every tongue will praise the Lord;
that God won't be All in All (NOT ALL IN SOME);
that there will not be a restitution of all things? Acts 3:21 ;

that absolutely ALL of the following 600 scriptures that speak of the ultimate redemption of all of God's creation will not, cannot come to pass - because humans were able to foil God's ultimate intentions?"
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You said this;

"James, that's one of the things that can't be really discussed."

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I said:

"I don't understand the first part [meaning you saying "that's one of the things that can't be really discussed"].    [Then I went on to explain that I just did discuss it, without ever saying free will or sovereignty :Oops: by saying]  ....   "I believe I demonstrated that many concepts actually can be discussed by talking about the issues and scriptures involved, not just focusing on distacting loaded terms and phrases."
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I wasn't asking you to change anything in your post.  I was attempting to make the point that we can discuss scripture til we're blue in the face without ever locking into a definition battle.  Or if we can't, then maybe we really do need to move on to other issues.  How about this?  Theo - if there's truly a stumbling block here with you regarding this topic and your being able to fully accept UR, would you like a private "speak to the mods" thread?  You could even pick a couple of people you'd like to join the private discussion.  That way we'd keep it off the boards as far as turning it into a free for all food fight that could be injurious to a "little one" passing by, while still talking very frankly and openly about a discouraged/banned topic.  In other words, we can fight like cats and dogs behind closed doors as long as nobody hears us.  Just kidding.   :laughing7:

It's something to consider, and would certainly be keeping within guidelines.  If it's a bad idea, then it wouldn't be my first and likely won't be my last.   :bigGrin:   (I really am trying here guys - trying to stick with board expectations, while still hoping we can do what helps each other.)   :sigh:

And one more time in summary - the point of my original post was, isn't it true that WHICHEVER and HOW MUCH of either way one believes it happens in this lifetime, does that negate any of how God says it's ultimately going to turn out?

Alright, maybe I can get out of this now  (:Yeahright:)  

« Last Edit: April 02, 2010, 09:22:48 AM by jabcat »

Offline eaglesway

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #496 on: April 02, 2010, 04:23:27 PM »
I am responding again here to Theo Books earlier post that listed some verses about spiritual warfare.   
     

   I think it is wise to use scriptural language to discuss spiritual reality and avoid the traps of systematic theology.There are a number of things that can be learned from the types used in relationship to "Satan", snake, dust, the great dragon, etc. I appreciate them and acknowledge them.
    However, it appears to me that Jesus, Paul, Peter, Jude and John all had a view of our interaction with "the wicked one" that was much more immediate, not so concerned with origins, and very concerned with the present engagement. They wrote in terms more time specific than any pure allegory or principle can realistically address. Indeed, I have personally experienced that dealing with principalities and powers and the hosts of wickedness- as well as human enemies of the gospel "is" a part of taking His yoke upon us.
    If someone believes that all of the writings about spiritual warfare are allegorical or symbolic of spiritual principles that have been fulfilled and need not be regarded in our present walk with Christ- so be it- everyone is entitled to their opinion. My opinion is that no matter what we believe the eternal perspective is, we have to deal with spiritual realities- in our time. We have to walk, and as Jesus said, we tread on serpents and scorpions. In my opinion, anyone who does not recognize that one of the wiles of the devil is to obscure his existence and his activity is deceived by him and not walking in reality.
      Of course, walking in the Spirit, in the love of God, is the primary focus of our discipleship. We are to walk as wise as serpents and as harmless as doves. There is another spirit that now works in the sons of disobedience, we contend with the world, the flesh and the devil, and spiritual warfare is a part our discipleship in Christ. This is an evidence of whether we are overcoming- for those who have overcome within themselves are the ones who are able to overcome the devil. Jesus taught Paul all he knew and Paul considered it serious business. I would point to the record, for instance of the 7 sons of Sceva in Acts who found out the hard way what demonic activity can produce, or Paul's confrontation with the prophetess of Diana, out of whom he cast a familiar spirit and unlocked a tide of outrage and persecution in Ephesus, or the confrontation in which Jesus rescued the man possessed by Legion. I have personally seen examples of all of the above in my time as a minister of the gospel.

Finally, I say to myself and too all, when we get too lost in the definitions and perspectives of truth, we are probably not so great at walking in it.
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Offline WhiteWings

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #497 on: April 02, 2010, 04:31:51 PM »
Finally, I say to myself and too all, when we get too lost in the definitions and perspectives of truth, we are probably not so great at walking in it.
I guess that's true. But I hope the definitions help finding the Truth....
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #498 on: April 02, 2010, 05:06:52 PM »
That was just double-talk.
Please, yes or no?

Take it for whatever it is worth to you. It IS after all, my response. I have no intention of adding to your hurt. You are God's servant, not mine. As I am God's servant, not yours. Let us glorify God in this matter and let go what hurts.

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #499 on: April 02, 2010, 05:16:22 PM »
The argument on this board has been that God already decided what use he was going to make of each pot, prior to making it. GOD says he waits till he sees how the pot turns out before the "if" - "then" decision is made.

He says "The timing of my telling what kind of Pot it is, is after I see whether it will obey or not."

To be perfectly honest, both sides of the equation are difficult to understand; but fraught with precious wares for those who handle them respectfully.

"It is of the Lord's mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassion fails not" (Lamentations 3:22)

An elderly woman had two large pots, each hung on the ends of a pole which she carried across her neck. One of the pots had a crack in it while the other pot was perfect and always delivered a full portion of water. At the end of the long walks from the stream to the house, the cracked pot arrived only half full. For a full two years this went on daily, with the woman bringing home only one and a half pots of water.

Of course, the perfect pot was proud of its accomplishments. But the poor cracked pot was ashamed of its own imperfections, as it could only do half of what it had been made to do. After two years of what it perceived to be bitter failure, it spoke to the woman one day by the stream.

"I am ashamed of myself, because this crack in my side causes water to leak out all the way back to your house."

The old woman smiled, "Did you notice that there are flowers on your side of the path, but not on the other pot's side?
That's because I have always known about your flaw, so I planted flower seeds on your side of the path, and every day while we walk back, you water them. For two years I have been able to pick these beautiful flowers to decorate the table. Without you being just the way you are, there would not be this beauty to grace the house."


Each of us have our own unique flaw. But it's the cracks and the flaws we each have that make our lives together, so very interesting and rewarding.

To all of my crackpot friends, have a peaceful day and remember to smell the flowers on your side of the path. It all begins with a first step, and every step is its own journey. Nothing like a change of heart!

peacemaker


I take that kinda' personal.

C.Pot