Mod Note - Everyone, please continue to be creative and discuss all your POVs without using the "buzz words" that have created so much tension on the boards in the past. IT CAN BE DONE. There's no reason one can't explain in detail their POV without pushing certain hot buttons and turning things into a mere "terminology debate".
Pierac's post is a good example of how a very strong opinion can be stated, a particular view of the scriptures espoused, without stressing the "free will/sovereignty" terms. You know what he's talking about, but can discuss the merits of that without having a "yes there is, no there's not" food fight. If you believe a certain way, then show why within the scriptures - and perhaps even be open to some new revelation along the way.
On the more serious note of things, this is likely the last request before posts are just edited without further explanation. Please help out with this. Thanks, James.
Post regarding this from March 25. http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=7910.msg93087#msg93087
o.k. James; Here's scripture, no "buzz" whatsoever, simple statements of what I think is being cosnidered, do with it as you will. I can't quite picture God making you delete it, but who am I to know the mind of God?
A Perspective on Predestination and the If Conditions of Salvation.
Paul says it is God that Justifies [Romans 8:33 ... It is God that justifieth.] and man does not have any say in the matter. God has placed his 'justification' in the realm of 'faith.'
[Romans 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.]
God has said He WILL NOT justify wicked men. [Exo 23:7...for I will not justify the wicked.] and also says anyone who does so is abominable to the Lord [Prov 17:15 He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD.]
God has spoken against the man who says 'all men will be saved, regardless of how evil, or whether they repent, or not.' [Isaiah 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil...]
God has even said he does not want to hear 'He loves the evil with the good' [Mal 2:17 Ye have wearied the LORD with your words. Yet ye say, Wherein have we wearied him? When ye say, Every one that doeth evil is good in the sight of the LORD, and he delighteth in them...
Judgment, not justification, is the word [Eccl 12:14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.]
The Kingdom of God is NOT OPEN to sinners IN THEIR SIN - They must first REPENT, turn from, quit doing, that which is abominable to God. [1 Cor 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 1 Cor 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
The Bible doctrine of Predestination is predicated upon God's pre-planning of certain blessings for a class of people; Just as a man may make arrangements for his estate, upon notification that he has just become a father, and is now mindful of his heir; So God pre-arranged an estate to be shared by those who would someday become his heirs. Jesus was His only-begotten son; Christians, who are Jesus' brothers and sisters, are children by adoption, and heirs of the promise to Abraham.
Predestination is NOT a preselection of 'persons,' for God is no "respector" thereunto, but it is a predetermination regarding a class of persons, heirs of the promises, by faith, and obedience thereunto.
Look at the 'If' conditions of Salvation...
WHAT IF ISRAEL FAILS...?
Deu 4:26 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess it; ye shall not prolong your days upon it, but shall utterly be destroyed.27 And the LORD shall scatter you among the nations, and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen, whither the LORD shall lead you.28 And there ye shall serve gods, the work of men's hands, wood and stone, which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell.
WHAT IF ISRAEL REPENTS?
Deu 4:29 But 'IF' from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, 'IF' thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.
'REPENTANCE' FACTORS INTO GOD'S PLAN
Deu 4:30 When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, 'IF' thou turn to the LORD thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice; 31 For the LORD thy God is a merciful God; he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy Fathers which he sware unto them.
WHAT IF ISRAEL FORGETS? - PERISH
Deu 8:19 And it shall be, 'IF' thou do at all forget the LORD thy God, and walk after other gods, and serve them, and worship them, I testify against you this day that ye shall surely perish.
WHAT IF ISRAEL DOES 'NOT OBSERVE'
Deu 28:58 'IF' thou wilt not observe to do all the words of this law that are written in this book, that thou mayest fear this glorious and fearful name, THE LORD THY GOD;
GOD WILL CHANGE THE FOCUS OF HIS 'REJOICING.'
Deu 28:63 And it shall come to pass, that as the LORD rejoiced over you to do you good....; so the LORD will rejoice over you to destroy you,
A 'CHOICE' OFFERED
Deu 30:15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
Deu 30:17 But 'IF' thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;
Deu 30:18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.
Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore 'CHOOSE' life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
IF ISRAEL FORSAKES GOD - HE WILL HURT AND CONSUME
Joshua 24:20 'IF ye forsake the LORD, and serve strange gods, then he will turn and do you hurt, and consume you, after that he hath done you good.
FORGIVENESS REQUIRES A WILLING OBEDIENCE
Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. 19 'IF' ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:
Isaiah 1:20 But 'IF' ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.
PERSEVERANCE HAS ALWAYS BEEN A PART OF GOD'S WILL TOWARD THE HEIRS OF SALVATION
Mat 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
Luke 8:14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection. 15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.
John 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, 'IF' ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
A SINNER 'SERVES' SIN
John 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
WHAT DOES JESUS SAY ABOUT 'SERVANTS?'
John 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
John 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, 'IF' a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
CONDITIONAL LOVE OF GOD
John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, 'IF' a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
ARE CERTAIN MEN 'PREDESTINED' TO DAMNATION?
Isaiah 59:1 Behold, the LORD'S hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear: 2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.3 For your hands are defiled with blood, and your fingers with iniquity; your lips have spoken lies, your tongue hath muttered perverseness.
12 For our transgressions are multiplied before thee, and our sins testify against us: for our transgressions are with us; and as for our iniquities, we know them; 13 In transgressing and lying against the LORD, and departing away from our God, speaking oppression and revolt, conceiving and uttering from the heart words of falsehood. 18 According to their deeds, accordingly he will repay, fury to his adversaries, recompence to his enemies; to the islands he will repay recompence.
LOOK AT HOW THE PROMISES FALL TO THE HEIRS, WHO WERE PREDESTINED, BUT WHO STILL RETAINED CHOICES...
Rom 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
ABRAHAM BECAME THE FATHER OF THE FAITHFUL THROUGH THE 'RIGHTEOUSNESS OF FAITH,' NOT BY PREDETERMINATION.
Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised. 13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
COULD THE PROMISE BE VOIDED? ONLY IF PHYSICAL ISRAEL IS THE HEIR.
Rom 4:14 For if they which are OF THE LAW be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise MADE OF NONE EFFECT:
BUT THE PROMISE WAS TO ALL THE SEED; 'MANY NATIONS'
Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all 17 As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations, before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
PHYSICAL ISRAEL ALREADY RECEIVED ALL THE PROMISES MADE TO THEM.
Joshua 23:14 ......and ye know in all your hearts and in all your souls, that not one thing hath failed of all the good things which the LORD your God spake concerning you; all are come to pass unto you, and not one thing hath failed thereof.
CONDITIONAL UPON HEARING
Jer 26:2 Thus saith the LORD....3 'IF' so be THEY WILL hearken, and turn every man from his evil way, that I may repent me of the evil, which I purpose to do unto them because of the evil of their doings.4 And ... 'IF YE WILL NOT' hearken to me, to walk in my law, which I have set before you, 6... 'THEN' will I make this house like Shiloh, and will make this city a curse to all the nations of the earth.
CONDITIONAL UPON RIGHTEOUSNESS
Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. 5 But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right,..... he shall surely live, saith the Lord GOD.
Look at how Israel recognized God as Father; [Isaiah 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.]
Now look to the clay as it is worked in the hands of the potter:
Jer 18:1 The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying, 2 Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words.
Jeremiah goes to the potters house to observe;
18:3 Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels.
A marred vessel in the potter's hand:
Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
Jer 18:5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,
Jer 18:6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.
God raises the question of 'when' the decision is made to make a vessel intended for evil:
Jer 18:7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; 8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
God also raises the question as to when he will decide to make a vessel 'for good.'
Jer 18:9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; 10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.
God warns Israel, by Jeremiah:
Jer 18:11 Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: return ye now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.
What was their answer?
Jer 18:12 And they said, There is no hope: but we will walk after our own devices, and we will every one do the imagination of his evil heart.
And God's reply?
Jer 18:13 Therefore thus saith the LORD; Ask ye now among the heathen, who hath heard such things: the virgin of Israel hath done a very horrible thing.
15 Because my people hath forgotten me, they have burned incense to vanity, and they have caused them to stumble in their ways from the ancient paths, to walk in paths, in a way not cast up; 16 To make their land desolate, and a perpetual hissing; every one that passeth thereby shall be astonished, and wag his head. 17 I will scatter them as with an east wind before the enemy; I will shew them the back, and not the face, in the day of their calamity.
And the Israelites response:
Jer 18:18 Then said they, Come, and let us devise devices against Jeremiah; for the law shall not perish from the priest, nor counsel from the wise, nor the word from the prophet. Come, and let us smite him with the tongue, and let us not give heed to any of his words.
It hasn't changed much has it? Men today still say, it doesn't matter how bad you are, God is going to save everyone anyway.