Author Topic: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS  (Read 75636 times)

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Theo Book

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #450 on: March 31, 2010, 05:25:24 PM »
When someone says "God doesn't know the word "if," that goes beyond simply referencing what is common knowledge to those on the board. Please, let us speak the same things,
Ok, Theo I will try to be more clear in the future. Sometimes just trying to be not so long winded. :winkgrin:

Hey Theo.  This guy from The Netherlands actually does pretty good, especially for someone who learned English from watching The Dukes of Hazzard reruns  :laughhand:
I think the Dukes learned English from watching Beverley HillBillies "early days."

Offline legoman

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #451 on: March 31, 2010, 05:51:04 PM »
Hi Theo,

I think this is what other people are trying to say regarding God and "IF".

Its like this.  For example:

God says: if you don't repent of your evil ways, you will suffer for them (you will reap what you sow).  But if you do repent and turn to me, you will receive peace and joy.

The trick is God already knows which you will choose.  God isn't changing his mind or plan depending on what we do, because God already knows what we will do.

Just because we don't know the future, we need to be careful to not assign that quality to God as well.  God most definitely knows the future, and already knows what will happen.  He even tells us what would happen if we did something different, although He knows we won't do it.

He does this for our benefit so we will learn consequences for actions.

Also, God knows (and declares) that all will eventually turn and confess to Him and bow and praise and worship Him joyfully.  So even though for a time we go against God, we will all eventually turn back to Him.  God knows this.  It is His plan.

Offline Pierac

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #452 on: April 01, 2010, 02:31:51 AM »
O.K. Here's a "tough question" for you. Where do you fit this in: the scripture that tells you to "resist the devil and he will flee from you?" And,

Romans 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.    

Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Tough? Please!

Php 2:13  for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work  for His good pleasure.

What does Satan/devil have to do with anything? He just follows his own twisted request! Nothing more, nothing less! Satan needs permission to do anything!  That permission comes from the GOD of  Php 2:13!

Pay  attention Theo Book…

CLV Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity (that's you) to humble them by it.

Ecc 3:10 I see the experience that Elohim gives To the sons of humanity to humble them by it. 11 He has made everything fitting in its season; However, He has put obscurity in their heart So that the man may not find out His work, That which the One, Elohim, does from the beginning to the terminus."

You want to understand Satan?

Gen 3:1  Now the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made.  And he said to the woman, "Indeed, has God said, 'You shall not eat
from any tree of the garden'?"

Then you need to understand the Serpent… was made! The Serpent did not make himself,  or his nature!  Job teaches you this! (Job 1:6 -7)  

Yes, God is not talking to a fallen enemy, but a creation of HIS!  God is in control, and Satan is just cocky.  Nothing more or less!  

Take off your Church glasses Theo!

Paul






Offline peacemaker

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #453 on: April 01, 2010, 06:27:11 AM »
Like I said, if ...we discuss the real theme of the potter/clay and consider all the ramifications of the "IF" conditions of salvation, it begins to paint a far different scenario.

The verb meaning is to bring to a desired condition, not solely predicated on one's own acceptance.
Remember, if you are going to plant in the pot, you need to finish the inside.

"It's a heart condition; not a contextualized skin condition."


peacemaker

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #454 on: April 01, 2010, 07:35:40 AM »
    We have been placed in this stewardship by the Father. The adversary is for real, a genuine adversary. The mystery of free will is difficult for those who want to act as if they see from God's perspective- but they don't, for "Who has known the mind of the Lord and who has been His counselor". The adversary exercises free will as do we. Jesus was manifest to "destroy the works of the devil". We, as fellow workers with Christ, "wrestle not against flesh and blood but against principalities and powers, the rulers of the hosts of wickedness in the heavenlies". "The weapons of our warfare are not carnal(i.e. natural, of the intellect and emotion of man), rather they are mighty through God for the puling down of every stronghold and fortress that exalts itself against the true knowledge of God." Therefore, we must clothe ourselves with the full armor of God..... so that we might stand against the wiles of the evil one, and in the evil day, having done all, to stand. This is our calling, even as it was our Lord's, to disarm the principalities and powers, making an open show of them as we participate in the death burial and resurrection of Christ. There is much to do, in the pursuit of sonship, of maturity in Christ, to walk in the Spirit and be seated in the heavenly realms in Christ, above all principality and power. We are called to reconcile men unto God and to overcome the world, the flesh and the devil. Of course, our perspective on God's Sovereign will/purpose will greatly affect our stewardship of this grace in which we stand, but we see through a glass darkly. Therefore, choose you this day whom you will serve. Resist the devil and He will flee from you. Be sober for the purpose of prayer and watch, for our adversary roams about like a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour.
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Offline jabcat

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #455 on: April 01, 2010, 07:57:20 AM »
Mod Note - Everyone, please continue to be creative and discuss all your POVs without using the "buzz words" that have created so much tension on the boards in the past.  IT CAN BE DONE.  There's no reason one can't explain in detail their POV without pushing certain hot buttons and turning things into a mere "terminology debate".  

Pierac's post is a good example of how a very strong opinion can be stated, a particular view of the scriptures espoused, without stressing the "free will/sovereignty" terms.  You know what he's talking about, but can discuss the merits of that without having a "yes there is, no there's not" food fight.  If you believe a certain way, then show why within the scriptures - and perhaps even be open to some new revelation along the way.   :happygrin:

On the more serious note of things, this is likely the last request before posts are just edited without further explanation.  Please help out with this.  Thanks, James.

Post regarding this from March 25.   http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=7910.msg93087#msg93087
« Last Edit: April 01, 2010, 08:23:09 AM by jabcat »

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #456 on: April 01, 2010, 08:53:33 AM »
Gen 3:1  Now the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made.  And he said to the woman, "Indeed, has God said, 'You shall not eat from any tree of the garden'?"

Then you need to understand the Serpent… was made! The Serpent did not make himself,  or his nature!  Job teaches you this! (Job 1:6 -7)
Does the verse really mean satan was part of the beasts of the field? It almost sounds satan is not part of that "beasts group" but Adam and Eve are because first we are told how smart satan is and some verse later smart satan tricked dumb Adam and Eve (of the field?)
(Note that Jewish scholars see humans as beasts with an extra soul/spirit)

But I think it's not really important if satan is part of the 'made group' in this verse because everyone (I think) agrees God made everything.
The main debate is if satan was created evil or he turned evil by himself (fallen)
 :dontknow:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #457 on: April 01, 2010, 08:56:33 AM »
Mod Note - Everyone, please continue to be creative and discuss all your POVs without using the "buzz words"
.....
On the more serious note of things, this is likely the last request before posts are just edited without further explanation.  Please help out with this.  Thanks, James.
If that's your will James   :bowing:
(sorry couldn't resist....)
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline jabcat

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #458 on: April 01, 2010, 09:04:43 AM »
  :tease:

Theo Book

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #459 on: April 01, 2010, 12:27:55 PM »
Like I said, if ...we discuss the real theme of the potter/clay and consider all the ramifications of the "IF" conditions of salvation, it begins to paint a far different scenario.

The verb meaning is to bring to a desired condition, not solely predicated on one's own acceptance.
Remember, if you are going to plant in the pot, you need to finish the inside.

"It's a heart condition; not a contextualized skin condition."


peacemaker


Not really.Jer 18:6" O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel. 7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; 8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. 9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; 10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them."

The argument on this board has been that God already decided what use he was going to make of each pot, prior to making it. GOD says he waits till he sees how the pot turns out before the "if" - "then" decision is made.

He says "The timing of my telling what kind of Pot it is, is after I see whether it will obey or not."

 Luke 13:2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?  3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. 4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2010, 12:41:33 PM by Theo Book »

Theo Book

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #460 on: April 01, 2010, 12:44:21 PM »
Mod Note - Everyone, please continue to be creative and discuss all your POVs without using the "buzz words" that have created so much tension on the boards in the past.  IT CAN BE DONE.  There's no reason one can't explain in detail their POV without pushing certain hot buttons and turning things into a mere "terminology debate".  

Pierac's post is a good example of how a very strong opinion can be stated, a particular view of the scriptures espoused, without stressing the "free will/sovereignty" terms.  You know what he's talking about, but can discuss the merits of that without having a "yes there is, no there's not" food fight.  If you believe a certain way, then show why within the scriptures - and perhaps even be open to some new revelation along the way.   :happygrin:

On the more serious note of things, this is likely the last request before posts are just edited without further explanation.  Please help out with this.  Thanks, James.

Post regarding this from March 25.   http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=7910.msg93087#msg93087

o.k. James; Here's scripture, no "buzz" whatsoever, simple statements of what I think is being cosnidered, do with it as  you will. I can't quite picture God making you delete it, but who am I to know the mind of God?





A Perspective on Predestination and the If Conditions of Salvation.

Paul says it is God that Justifies [Romans 8:33 ... It is God that justifieth.] and man does not have any say in the matter. God has placed his 'justification' in the realm of 'faith.'
[Romans 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.]

God has said He WILL NOT justify wicked men. [Exo 23:7...for I will not justify the wicked.] and also says anyone who does so is abominable to the Lord [Prov 17:15 He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD.]

God has spoken against the man who says 'all men will be saved, regardless of how evil, or whether they repent, or not.' [Isaiah 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil...]

God has even said he does not want to hear 'He loves the evil with the good' [Mal 2:17 Ye have wearied the LORD with your words. Yet ye say, Wherein have we wearied him? When ye say, Every one that doeth evil is good in the sight of the LORD, and he delighteth in them...

Judgment, not justification, is the word [Eccl 12:14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.]

The Kingdom of God is NOT OPEN to sinners IN THEIR SIN - They must first REPENT, turn from, quit doing, that which is abominable to God. [1 Cor 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 1 Cor 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you: but ye are  washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

The Bible doctrine of Predestination is predicated upon God's pre-planning of certain blessings for a class of people; Just as a man may make arrangements for his estate, upon notification that he has just become a father, and is now mindful of his heir; So God pre-arranged an estate to be shared by those who would someday become his heirs. Jesus was His only-begotten son; Christians, who are Jesus' brothers and sisters, are children by adoption, and heirs of the promise to Abraham.

Predestination is NOT a preselection of 'persons,' for God is no "respector" thereunto, but it is a predetermination regarding a class of persons, heirs of the promises, by faith, and obedience thereunto.

Look at the 'If' conditions of Salvation...


WHAT IF ISRAEL FAILS...?
Deu 4:26 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess it; ye shall not prolong your days upon it, but shall utterly be destroyed.27 And the LORD shall scatter you among the nations, and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen, whither the LORD shall lead you.28 And there ye shall serve gods, the work of men's hands, wood and stone, which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell.

WHAT IF ISRAEL REPENTS?
Deu 4:29 But 'IF' from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, 'IF' thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.

'REPENTANCE' FACTORS INTO GOD'S PLAN
Deu 4:30 When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, 'IF' thou turn to the LORD thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice; 31 For the LORD thy God is a merciful God; he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy Fathers which he sware unto them.

WHAT IF ISRAEL FORGETS? - PERISH
Deu 8:19 And it shall be, 'IF' thou do at all forget the LORD thy God, and walk after other gods, and serve them, and worship them, I testify against you this day that ye shall surely perish.

WHAT IF ISRAEL DOES 'NOT OBSERVE'
Deu 28:58 'IF' thou wilt not observe to do all the words of this law that are written in this book, that thou mayest fear this glorious and fearful name, THE LORD THY GOD;

GOD WILL CHANGE THE FOCUS OF HIS 'REJOICING.'
Deu 28:63 And it shall come to pass, that as the LORD rejoiced over you to do you good....; so the LORD will rejoice over you to destroy you,

A 'CHOICE' OFFERED
Deu 30:15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;

IF.....
Deu 30:17 But 'IF' thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;

THEN.....
Deu 30:18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.

'CHOOSE'
Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore 'CHOOSE' life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

IF ISRAEL FORSAKES GOD - HE WILL HURT AND CONSUME
Joshua 24:20 'IF ye forsake the LORD, and serve strange gods, then he will turn and do you hurt, and consume you, after that he hath done you good.

FORGIVENESS REQUIRES A WILLING OBEDIENCE
Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. 19 'IF' ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:

'BUT IF.....'
Isaiah 1:20 But 'IF' ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

PERSEVERANCE HAS ALWAYS BEEN A PART OF GOD'S WILL TOWARD THE HEIRS OF SALVATION

Mat 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

AND PERSEVERE
Luke 8:14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection. 15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

AND PERSEVERE...
John 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, 'IF' ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

A SINNER 'SERVES' SIN
John 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

WHAT DOES JESUS SAY ABOUT 'SERVANTS?'
John 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.

PERSEVERENCE
John 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, 'IF' a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.

CONDITIONAL LOVE OF GOD
John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, 'IF' a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

ARE CERTAIN MEN 'PREDESTINED' TO DAMNATION?
Isaiah 59:1 Behold, the LORD'S hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear: 2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.3 For your hands are defiled with blood, and your fingers with iniquity; your lips have spoken lies, your tongue hath muttered perverseness.

12 For our transgressions are multiplied before thee, and our sins testify against us: for our transgressions are with us; and as for our iniquities, we know them; 13 In transgressing and lying against the LORD, and departing away from our God, speaking oppression and revolt, conceiving and uttering from the heart words of falsehood. 18 According to their deeds, accordingly he will repay, fury to his adversaries, recompence to his enemies; to the islands he will repay recompence.

LOOK AT HOW THE PROMISES FALL TO THE HEIRS, WHO WERE PREDESTINED, BUT WHO STILL RETAINED CHOICES...
Rom 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

ABRAHAM BECAME THE FATHER OF THE FAITHFUL THROUGH THE 'RIGHTEOUSNESS OF FAITH,' NOT BY PREDETERMINATION.
Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised. 13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

COULD THE PROMISE BE VOIDED? ONLY IF PHYSICAL ISRAEL IS THE HEIR.
Rom 4:14 For if they which are OF THE LAW be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise MADE OF NONE EFFECT:

BUT THE PROMISE WAS TO ALL THE SEED; 'MANY NATIONS'
Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all 17 As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations, before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

PHYSICAL ISRAEL ALREADY RECEIVED ALL THE PROMISES MADE TO THEM.
Joshua 23:14 ......and ye know in all your hearts and in all your souls, that not one thing hath failed of all the good things which the LORD your God spake concerning you; all are come to pass unto you, and not one thing hath failed thereof.

CONDITIONAL UPON HEARING
Jer 26:2 Thus saith the LORD....3 'IF' so be THEY WILL hearken, and turn every man from his evil way, that I may repent me of the evil, which I purpose to do unto them because of the evil of their doings.4 And ... 'IF YE WILL NOT' hearken to me, to walk in my law, which I have set before you, 6... 'THEN' will I make this house like Shiloh, and will make this city a curse to all the nations of the earth.

CONDITIONAL UPON RIGHTEOUSNESS
Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. 5 But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right,..... he shall surely live, saith the Lord GOD.

Look at how Israel recognized God as Father; [Isaiah 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.]

Now look to the clay as it is worked in the hands of the potter:
Jer 18:1 The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying, 2 Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words.

Jeremiah goes to the potters house to observe;
18:3 Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels.

A marred vessel in the potter's hand:
Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

Jer 18:5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,
Jer 18:6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.

God raises the question of 'when' the decision is made to make a vessel intended for evil:
Jer 18:7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; 8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.

God also raises the question as to when he will decide to make a vessel 'for good.'
Jer 18:9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; 10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.

God warns Israel, by Jeremiah:
Jer 18:11 Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: return ye now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.

What was their answer?
Jer 18:12 And they said, There is no hope: but we will walk after our own devices, and we will every one do the imagination of his evil heart.

And God's reply?
Jer 18:13 Therefore thus saith the LORD; Ask ye now among the heathen, who hath heard such things: the virgin of Israel hath done a very horrible thing.
15 Because my people hath forgotten me, they have burned incense to vanity, and they have caused them to stumble in their ways from the ancient paths, to walk in paths, in a way not cast up; 16 To make their land desolate, and a perpetual hissing; every one that passeth thereby shall be astonished, and wag his head. 17 I will scatter them as with an east wind before the enemy; I will shew them the back, and not the face, in the day of their calamity.

And the Israelites response:
Jer 18:18 Then said they, Come, and let us devise devices against Jeremiah; for the law shall not perish from the priest, nor counsel from the wise, nor the word from the prophet. Come, and let us smite him with the tongue, and let us not give heed to any of his words.

It hasn't changed much has it? Men today still say, it doesn't matter how bad you are, God is going to save everyone anyway.

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #461 on: April 01, 2010, 12:54:35 PM »
GOD says he waits till he sees how the pot turns out before the "if" - "then" decision is made.
Or the if then decisions were already written down before creation and God just patiently waits until the foreknow If-Then occurs.

Imo not every question God asks is because He needs info. It's just a way of speaking.
For example when Adam and Eve hid after eating teh fruit they hid themselfs. God ask "where are you?" Do you really believe God didn't know where they hid.
Similar about the bargaining to spare Sodom 50, 40, 30,
Did God allow to be influeced? Or was it just like a Father talking to His children. Sorta like rethoriacl questions.

Quote
Luke 13:2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?  3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. 4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Did God just say? "Well, I have no clue if they are going to sin/repent; but I'll just wait and see and act accordingly."

I think all if-then decisions of mankind are embedded by making the pot.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #462 on: April 01, 2010, 01:04:15 PM »
It hasn't changed much has it? Men today still say, it doesn't matter how bad you are, God is going to save everyone anyway.
That's correct.
But saving is a process and saved is a end result.
No evil person will enter heaven. But the saving process means that the wicked will repent and (slowly) become saints. It can be done. Ask Saul/Paul.

So no matter how many if then's there are the only thing that counts is the last "then" :2c:

Little thing on judgement and grace: http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=5953.msg61991#msg61991
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Theo Book

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #463 on: April 01, 2010, 02:38:05 PM »
It hasn't changed much has it? Men today still say, it doesn't matter how bad you are, God is going to save everyone anyway.
That's correct.
But saving is a process and saved is a end result.
No evil person will enter heaven. But the saving process means that the wicked will repent and (slowly) become saints. It can be done. Ask Saul/Paul.

So no matter how many if then's there are the only thing that counts is the last "then" :2c:

Little thing on judgement and grace: http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=5953.msg61991#msg61991

Fair enough! You guys have given me much to ponder. I will look carefully and cosnider, but I still have some issues to resolve.

Thanks guys.

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #464 on: April 01, 2010, 03:16:19 PM »
Theo, it is simple really.


The If statements are often made to imply that it is up to man and man alone to meet the conditions.


The reality of scripture is that God prepares the way so that we are ensured the conditions ARE met.


Theo Book

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #465 on: April 01, 2010, 03:34:02 PM »
Theo, it is simple really.


The If statements are often made to imply that it is up to man and man alone to meet the conditions.


The reality of scripture is that God prepares the way so that we are ensured the conditions ARE met.



I guess that is the issue Paul. "IF" the conditions ARE MET, there would not be any punishments at all, would there?

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #466 on: April 01, 2010, 04:07:44 PM »
Theo, it is simple really.


The If statements are often made to imply that it is up to man and man alone to meet the conditions.


The reality of scripture is that God prepares the way so that we are ensured the conditions ARE met.



I guess that is the issue Paul. "IF" the conditions ARE MET, there would not be any punishments at all, would there?


Not necessarily.  I am talking about how scripture describes the process of ensuring conditions are met.


In proverbs.    "All the routes of man are before God and he prepares the way."

"A man devises a way in his heart but God directs his steps."



Man devises a way that might cause a condition to not be met but God directs his steps to make sure he meets the condition.


So it is not that the conditions are already met,  it is God preparing the way to ensure man meets the conditions.

I know this to be true in my own life and who am I to come to some conclusion that God is in a box of mine that says he won't do the same for everyone?



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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #467 on: April 01, 2010, 04:50:07 PM »


As do I, always.
My biggest dismay is when I pour out my heart in effort to be understood only to have some poor soul post to me that I have insulted his God or hurt his feelings. It is refreshing to deal with you.


Theo.
Am I that "poor soul" of which you speak?

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #468 on: April 01, 2010, 07:58:35 PM »
Hi Theo.  WHEWWWWW!!!!!  I wasn't made to delete any of your post!!!   :sweat:

But I was so hoping to be able to.   :CryBaby:    :crywipe:

I'm messin' with you.  Sorry if I was too heavy-handed guys, but thanks for helping out.  There really are good reasons (unfortunately) to keep this particular topic "within the lines".   :pitiful:

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #469 on: April 01, 2010, 08:04:03 PM »
P.S.  Good posts today guys.  Getting many points across effectively.  


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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #470 on: April 01, 2010, 09:01:19 PM »
Hi All,

I was thinking about Theos post about God telling the Israelites what would happen to them if they didn't do this or that, or if they did this or that.

One thing we have to remember is, the Israelites were under the law of Moses and God judged them by their WORKS, which he instituted. The Israelites obeyed God by their works. We should not have any works today because Jesus did all the works for us and the works that are performed now are not our works but Christ that lives in us, he doeth the works. Our will is no longer ours but we are one with God and our wills are one with his will.

We should be like Christ and the Father. Jesus said, "of mine own self I can do nothing". Do we have more will than Jesus had? If we do, then we are not one with God. When we can come to the place where we can say, "of mine own self I can do NOTHING" then we can say "we are all one in Christ" (Gal.3:28).  When we can say, it is no longer I that work but Christ that worketh in me" then we have become ONE with God.

If we are in Christ we cannot say, I do this or that. I choose, will, or work. We will say, "For it is God which worketh in me BOTH to WILL and to DO of HIS GOOD PLEASURE" (Phil. 2:13).  (Col. 3:3) "For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God".  If we are dead in Christ how can we have any will, or perform any works?

CHB



 

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #471 on: April 01, 2010, 09:22:14 PM »
Can I make an observation as a member here and not a mod?  (I'll go by the rules   :winkgrin:)

If we assumed, just for the sake of reasoning things through, that humans TOTALLY get their own way in this lifetime, that it's TOTALLY up to us to make ALL the right decisions - that we not only plan our way but ALSO direct our own steps -that all our choices are TOTALLY within our own power and without ANY set limitations....

Then, when we stand before God, our deeds are judged, and we're found wanting - would that really mean;

that any works of ours that are wood, hay, stubble, won't be burned;
that we won't be saved as by fire;
that God is unable or unwilling that none (the person, the spirit) should perish;
that every knee won't bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Master - IN the Holy Spirit;
that even though He was lifted up, He won't indeed draw everyone to Himself;
that even as in Adam all died, in Christ will all be made alive;
that 'destruction' of the flesh will not be a part of the spirit being saved;
that those who chose the broad way still won't "enter in" through the way of destruction;
that God really doesn't work all things according to the counsel of his will (THELEMA = INTENT);
that the "kings of the earth" (the saints) really won't be bringing their treasures into the city that has gates open day and night;
that all nations of the earth won't be blessed;  
that when God's judgment is upon the earth the people will learn righteousness;
that every tongue will praise the Lord;
that God won't be All in All (NOT ALL IN SOME);
that there will not be a restitution of all things?  Acts 3:21   ;

that absolutely ALL of the following 600 scriptures that speak of the ultimate redemption of all of God's creation will not, cannot come to pass - because humans were able to foil God's ultimate intentions?  

GENESIS

1:31 every - good
3:15 bruise
12:1-3 all families
13:16 dust
14:19 possessor
14:22 possessor
15:5 stars
18:18 all - nations
18:25 judge - right
22:17 stars - sand
22:18 all - nations
24:3 God - heaven - and - earth
24:60 thousands of millions
26:4 stars - all - nations
28:14 dust - all - families
32:12 seed as - sand - cannot
EXODUS

9:29 earth
19:5 all - earth - mine
32:13 seed as - stars
NUMBERS

14:21 all - earth - filled
16:22 spirits - all flesh
27:16 spirits - all flesh
DEUTERONOMY

10:14 heaven - heaven of heavens - earth - all
JOSHUA

2:11 God heaven - and - earth
3:11 Lord - all - earth
3:13 Lord - all - earth
II SAMUEL

14:14 devise means-not expelled
I KINGS

8:43 all people
8:60 all people
II KINGS

19:19 all - kingdoms- know
I CHRONICLES

29:11-14 all
II CHRONICLES

20:6 none - able - withstand
NEHEMIAH

9:6 all
JOB

12:10 all mankind
33:18-24 pit - ransom
PSALMS

9:8 judge - righteousness
16:10 not leave - hell
24:1 earth - they
25:10 all - paths - mercy - truth
32:1-2 imputeth not
33:4-8 all
33:11-15 all
46:10 exalted - heathen
47:2 all
47:7 all
48:2 whole
50:12 world - fullness
59:13 ruleth - ends
65:2 all flesh - ends
65:5 all flesh - ends
66:3-4 enemies - submit - all
67:2 all - all
67:7 all - all
68:18 rebellious - dwell
68:31 unto
69:34 every thing
72:8 dominion - all
72:11 dominion - all
72:17 dominion - all
72:19 dominion - all
82:6 all of you
82:8 all nations
83:18 all - earth
85:1-6 forgiven - covered
86:9 all nations - worship
89:11 fullness
96:1 all - earth
97:5 Lord - whole
97:6 all see
98:3 all
98:4 all - earth
103:9-14 not always chide - father
103:19 ruleth - all
105:8 thousand generations
110:1 enemies - footstool
115:3 pleased
119:64 full - mercy
126:1-6 turn again
130:3 who - word - all
130:5 who - word - all
130:8 who - word - all
135:6 pleased
138:4 all - kings
139:7-12 there
143:1 faithfulness
145:9-17 satisfiest - all
145:21 all flesh
PROVERBS

16:4 for - purged
16:6 for - purged
ISAIAH

2:2-4 all nations
6:3 whole earth
9:7 zeal - perform
11:9 knowledge - cover
14:24-27 purposed
24:22 after - visited
26:29 judgements - learn
40:5 glory - all flesh
42:3-4 judgement - truth - till
45:7 evil - all
45:12-13 evil - all
45:22-25 all - every
46:10 declaring - end - pleasure
46:11 purposed - do it
49:26 all flesh
51:6 not - abolished
52:10 all - see
52:15 shall - see, shall - consider
53:6 iniquity - all
53:11 travail - satisfied
54:5 God - whole earth
54:7-8 mercies - kindness
54:13 all - taught
57:16 not contend - neither - wroth
60:5 shall come
61:11 as - so - all nations
63:17 made - err
65:1 sought - found - not called
66:18 I - gather all
66:23 all flesh
JEREMIAH

3:12 not keep anger
31:31-34 new covenant
32:27 all flesh
32:36-42 evil - good
33:22 sand - seed
LAMENTATIONS

3:31-32 not cast off
EZEKIEL

16:48-55 took - away - good - return (Matt 10:15; 11:23; Jude 6-7)
DANIEL

2:35 stone - filled
7:13-14 all people
7:27 all serve
9:14 evil - righteous - all
9:24 end of sins - reconciliation
HOSEA

1:10 as - sand - cannot
13:14 ransom - redeem
14:4 love - freely - turned
JOEL

2:28 all flesh
MICAH

4:1-5 many nations - every man
7:18-19 delighteth - mercy
HABAKKUK

2:14 knowledge - cover
ZEPHANIAH

2:11 all - every
3:8-9 determination - pure language
HAGGAI

2:7 all nations
ZECHARIAH

14:9 king over all
MALACHI

1:11 Gentiles - heathen
************************************************

NEW TESTAMENT
MATTHEW

1:21 shall save
3:12 thoroughly
5:19 in
5:21-26 till
10:15 more tolerable
11:22-24 more tolerable
12:18 shall show
12:20 judgement unto victory
12:21 Gentiles trust
12:32 world (eon)
12:41-42 judgement - shall condemn
18:8-9 better
18:14 not the will
18:23-35 till he should pay - so likewise
22:44 enemies - footstool
23:13-35 till ye shall say
MARK

3:29 eternal (eonian)
6:11 more tolerable
9:43-37 better
9:49 every one shall
12:36 enemies - footstool
LUKE

1:68 redeemed his
1:77 knowledge - remission
2:10 all people
2:14 peace - goodwill toward
2:30-31 salvation - all people
3:6 all flesh
3:17 thoroughly
6:35 kind
9:56 come - to save
10:12-14 more tolerable
11:31 queen - south
11:32 men - Ninevah
19:10 seek - save - lost
20:38 all live unto him
20:43 enemies - footstool
JOHN

1:3 All things
1:9 every man
1:29 taketh away - sin
3:16 loved - world (mankind)
3:17 world - saved
4:42 Saviour of the world
5:22-23 all - honour - son
6:33 life unto - world
6:37 all - shall come
6:39 lose nothing
6:45 all taught - heard - learned - cometh
6:51 life of - world
12:32 will draw all
12:47 to save - world
ACTS

1:24 knowest - all
2:17 all flesh
2:34-35 foes - thy footstool
3:21 restitution of all things
3:25-26 all - blessed - every one
4:24 made all
7:49 made all
10:15 hath cleansed
10:28 any man
10:34 no respector
10:35 every nation
10:36 Lord of all
11:9 hath cleansed
13:47 ends of the earth
14:15 made - all things
17:24-31 all
24:15 hope - just and unjust
ROMANS

2:5 righteous
2:6 every man
4:13-18 heir of the world - all the seed
5:6-19 ungodly - while - reconciled- free gift - all men - life
8:20-22 made subject - not willingly - shall - whole creation
8:32 for us all
8:35-39 who - neither - nor
9:9-26 purpose of God
10:12 Lord over all
10:20 found - sought me not
11:11 fall - salvation
11:12 fall - fulness
11:15 casting away - reconcilinc - world - receiving - life
11:26 all - saved
11:29 without (god's) repentance
11:32 all - unbelief - mercy upon all
11:36 of - through - to - all things
14:10-12 all - every - every one
15:21 shall see - shall understand
I CORINTHIANS

3:11-15 saved - by fire
4:5 every man
5:1-5 destruction - flesh - spirit - saved
8:6 all things
10:26-28 earth - and the fullness
11:3 head - every man
11:7 man is image of God
11:12 all things of God
12:6 all in all
12:7,11 every man
15:22 for as - even so
15:23 every man
15:25 all enemies
15:26 enemy - destroyed
15:28 God - all in all
15:38-43 every seed - dishonor
15:49 as we - we shall
15:51 all be changed
II CORINTHIANS

5:14-21 reconciling - world - not imputing
GALATIONS

3:8 all nations
EPHESIANS

1:4-11 purposed - gather together - all
2:5 hath quickened
2:14-16 reconcile
3:9 all - all
3:15 whole family - named
4:6 all
4:8 led captivity captive
4:10 fill all
4:13 we all
PHILIPPIANS

2:10-11 every
3:21 subdue all
COLOSSIANS

1:16-17 all - for him
1:20 reconcile all
1:28 every man perfect
3:11 all
I THESSALONIANS

3:12 all
II THESSALONIANS

2:8 Wicked - destroyed
I TIMOTHY

1:15 to save
1:18-20 may learn
2:1-6 all
4:10-11 all men - command and teach
6:13 God - quickeneth all things
II TIMOTHY

1:9 hath - purposed - given - before
TITUS

2:11 all men
2:14 all iniquity
3:4 toward man
3:5 regeneration - renewing
3:6 which he shed on
HEBREWS

1:2-3 all
1:13 enemies - footstool
2:8 all - subjection
2:9 every man
2:10 all things
2:14 destroy - devil
2:17 reconciliation
3:4 built all
8:10-11 not teach - all shall know
8:12 no more
9:26 put away sin
10:10 once for all
10:17 no more
11:12 innumerable
12:10-11 chastened - profit
I PETER

3:18-20 unjust - spirits - disobedient
4:6 preached - to - dead
II PETER

3:9 not willing - all
I JOHN

2:2 propitiation - sins - whole world
3:5 take away
3:8 destroy the works
4:10 propitiation
4:14 Saviour of the world
JUDE

1:6 unto (until)
REVELATION

1:5 washed - our sins
1:7 every eye - they - which pierced him - all
3:9 I will make - come - worship - know
4:11 all - for - pleasure
5:13 every creature
7:9-10 no man could number
10:6 created - the things
11:7-13 kill them; they - rejoice; fear fell; gave glory - God
11:15 kingdoms of - world - become
14:6 preached - to every
15:1 last - filled up
15:4 all nations
15:8 plagues - fulfilled
16:7 true and righteous - judgments
20:13 judged every man
20:14 death and hell - cast into - lake of fire - second death
21:5 all things new
22:2 healing of the nations
22:3 no more curse
22:12 my reward - to - every man
22:17 come - freely

So what's the bottom line?

He is the Author and Finisher, Alpha and Omega, First and Last, Creator and Redeemer, Beginning and the End, of Him, Through Him, and to Him are ALL things.  He is/will be All in Al

 
Only by His grace, James.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2010, 09:38:05 PM by jabcat »

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #472 on: April 01, 2010, 09:33:45 PM »
I was thinking about Theos post about God telling the Israelites what would happen to them if they didn't do this or that, or if they did this or that.

One thing we have to remember is, the Israelites were under the law of Moses and God judged them by their WORKS,
.............
We should be like Christ and the Father.
Jesus said, "of mine own self I can do nothing". Do we have more will than Jesus had? If we do, then we are not one with God. When we can come to the place where we can say, "of mine own self I can do NOTHING" then we can say "we are all one in Christ" (Gal.3:28).  When we can say, it is no longer I that work but Christ that worketh in me" then we have become ONE with God.
No more law (besides I don't fully agree with that) "be like Christ" is extremely hard to follow. Just like the laws.
At least for me it is hard. WhiteWings BlackSoul  :mshock:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #473 on: April 01, 2010, 10:03:00 PM »
Can I make an observation as a member here and not a mod?  (I'll go by the rules   :winkgrin:)

If we assumed, just for the sake of reasoning things through, that humans TOTALLY get their own way in this lifetime, that it's TOTALLY up to us to make ALL the right decisions - that we not only plan our way but ALSO direct our own steps -that all our choices are TOTALL within our own power and without ANY set limitations....

Then, when we stand before God, our deeds are judged, and we're found wanting - would that really mean;

that any works of ours that are wood, hay, stubble, won't be burned;
that we won't be saved as by fire;
that God is unable or unwilling that none (the person, the spirit) should perish;
that every knee won't bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Master - IN the Holy Spirit;
that even though He was lifted up, He won't indeed draw everyone to Himself;
that even as in Adam all died, in Christ will all be made alive;
that 'destruction' of the flesh will not be a part of the spirit being saved;
that those who chose the broad way still won't "enter in" through the way of destruction;
that God really doesn't work all things according to the counsel of his will (THELEMA = INTENT);
that the "kings of the earth" (the saints) really won't be bringing their treasures into the city that has gates open day and night;
that all nations of the earth won't be blessed;  
that when God's judgment is upon the earth the people will learn righteousness;
that every tongue will praise the Lord;
that God won't be All in All (NOT ALL IN SOME);
that absolutely ALL of the following 600 scriptures that speak of the ultimate redemption of all of God's creation will not, cannot come to pass - because humans were able to foil God's ultimate intentions?
Teasing Theo again? You used the word: If  :laughing7: (sorry Theo)

James, that's one of the things that can't be really discussed.
You mention 3 pilars of Fathers plan:
a] A certain amount of free will. => 0% - 100%
b] Ability to guide our steps => 0% - 100%
c] Saving => 0% - 100%

Take out 2. Then the plan is no longer the plan. It's like saying assume there is only Father and HS (no Jesus) Does that mean no salvation? imo that can't be known/discussed. Maybe Father wouldn't create at all. Make us holy from start. Or a zillion other ways.

We can try to (dis)prove free will by scripture. But that's an endless discussion so basicly we don't know the answer.
Plus will is a strange thing. I can claim I freely typed this post. I decided the time of posting. But how can I know?
I once asked how people that claim to get messages from the HS, recieve those messages.
One answer was something like: I get a thought but somehow know it wasn't my own thought.
In that case it was clear the thought was not personal. But how about the other zillion thoughts we have in a lifetime?
How can we know it was really us having a thought and then guiding our owns steps.
I can use my free will to make a choice. But if the thoughts that gave birth to that free will action were not mine then my experience of free will is just a fantasy. It's just like training a dog for it's birth. We can teach the dog to be a guide dog for the blind. We can teach the dog extreme agression. The dog thinks s/he doing things of free will. But in really we trained the dogs personallity. Personality guides choices/behavior. We are the dogs potter. Vessel of honor (guiding dog). Vessel of wrath.
Of course similar things happen when raising children.

So if any of the parameters of God's plan would be diffrent (by His own design/wish) then we never can know how He tweaks the other parameters.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline jabcat

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #474 on: April 02, 2010, 01:32:18 AM »
James, that's one of the things that can't be really discussed.
You mention 3 pilars of Fathers plan:
a] A certain amount of free will. => 0% - 100%
b] Ability to guide our steps => 0% - 100%
c] Saving => 0% - 100%

Take out 2. Then the plan is no longer the plan. It's like saying assume there is only Father and HS (no Jesus) Does that mean no salvation? imo that can't be known/discussed. Maybe Father wouldn't create at all. Make us holy from start. Or a zillion other ways.

We can try to (dis)prove free will by scripture. But that's an endless discussion so basicly we don't know the answer.

I don't understand the first part.  I didn't use either banned terms once, and I believe I demonstrated that many concepts actually can be discussed by talking about the issues and scriptures involved, not just focusing on distacting loaded terms and phrases.  

Your last line above may be pretty accurate.  I personally believe we are required to make choices within parameters and conditions set by God, for our learning and growth - under His umbrella of control - to whatever extent He so chooses.  Even within UR there is a pretty wide range of what people believe on that, but the bottom line seems to be what I was trying to point out in my post -

that even if one sees it totally one way or the other in this life, what do the scriptures say about the final outcome?  Who wins?  Man, Satan, or God?  
« Last Edit: April 02, 2010, 01:46:03 AM by jabcat »