Author Topic: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS  (Read 63922 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline WhiteWings

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 12890
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahshua heals
    • My sites
Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #425 on: March 30, 2010, 05:25:51 PM »
Why? We all the time make plans, with contingent possibilities, and when contingencies happen, we are not "surprised" but rather are "prepared" for any circumstance, and react accordingly.
And that's the difference. We make plans all the time. God only made one plan.

Quote
But God said "if" in the manner of "If this" ---"then that."

YOUR assessment was NOT that God used "if" in a conditional fashion, but rather you said "God doesn't know the word "if." How am I to understand anything if you guys keep changing what you are saying?
If this was a isolated quote I would agree. But how often it has been said in this thread that God doesn't change (His plans), nothing takes Him by suprise, knew all before He even set the plan in motion.
That for me means that there are no ifs for Father. At least not as a possibility.
I hope you at least understand what I mean. Even if you don't agree. :laughing7:

When reading on this forum always keep in mind that "no changing plans" and "knew all before creation" are like foundation stones of reasoning for many here.
You don't have to agree; but it will make understanding many posts much easier.

 :Peace:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline eaglesway

  • < Moderator >
  • *
  • Posts: 3993
  • Gender: Male
  • Grace & Peace be multiplied unto you, in Jesus
    • Hell is a Myth.com
Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #426 on: March 30, 2010, 06:19:29 PM »
Hi Theo

  I think it is important to realize that there are two viewpoints being discussed. One is the overall viewpoint of God over the entire course of time through out the ages. One is the perspective of man in his dealings with God, seen through a glass darkly, through the veil of time. There are certain things we can accept, because the scriptures say them, about God and His overall omniscience and omnipotence. I do not draw any conclusion that I do not find witnessed in the scriptures (not to say I fully understand them, rather to say I fully respect them in all my considerations).
  There are certain things we can accept because the scriptures say them, about the conditions of our stewardship of time and the free will that God allows us within that stewardship. Therefore, I believe that God "works all things according to the counsel of His will" so that every action and reaction is resolving towards His goal in His administration of the ages- towards His ultimate intention, which is the reconciliation of all. I believe this because I believe the scriptures say so and because the Holy Spirit is bearing witness to the truth of it.
  At the same time, the Holy Spirit is teaching me, through the trials and experiences of life and growing in the wisdom of the Logos, that I have a free will and there are consequences to the stewardship I exercise over it. I know that we all have different views on the measure of free will God allows. I believe it is a great degree, a large measure, because, "For freedom Christ has set you free". God's ultimate intention is the free will harmony of every soul in the universe. We, as sons, have received an inheritance with Christ- it is our privilege to function as a priestly kingdom and participate in the reconciliation of all things, having been set free into the glorious liberty of the sons of God, into the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.
   So, "Today", in this "Day that the Lord has made", we must choose whom we will serve, and the consequences of our choices are momentous, even though all things are conditioned by grace. The paradox that is created between the ultimate, over all grace of God and this stewardship He gives men in this life is a paradox that we, in our arrogance, are uncomfortable with- so we try to put it in a "logic box"- the clay trying to put the fine lines of definition on the potter and His ways. I spent years wrestling with such things, and I still do wrestle with them. One thing I have wrestled out of this mystery- "that was hidden in the ages past but is now manifested by the words of the prophets and the apostles", is that you can't take the word and divide it into a force fed systematic theology for the dominion of babes- the naturally minded. Those who prefer the gospel to be completely subjugated to intellect will never perceive it. It is hidden from them. "That seeing they might not perceive, that hearing they might not understand". To this day when Moses is read a veil remains, said Paul to the Corinthians. So also, to this day, when Jesus is read a veil remains for many, because they do not understand what is hidden in plain sight.

  "Today, if you hear His voice"

   Sometimes we say "if", because we are speaking of conditional transactions between God and man. They are conditional because He has made them so. Yet, as regards the clear unconditional statements of the word about the ultimate purposes of God- we do not say if, because God has not said "if".

For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly(not of its own will), but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.
(Rom 8:19-23)

This not an accident of free will that God is recovering from. He subjected the creation to futility in a plan conceived before the foundation of the world

Rom 8:29  For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

We have been called to share a purpose and an inheritance in Christ. Let us labor diligently to enter into His rest.

He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention(eu-dokia) which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory.
(Eph 1:9-12)

This purpose is the summing up of all things in Christ, to the end that ultimately God will be all in all(1 Cor 15:22-28)

But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
(Eph 2:4-7)

We who are faithful in this stewardship of grace, as the first to hope in Christ, have great reward. We will share in the beautiful effulgence of the grace of God as it emerges through the ages until the ages be fulfilled.

For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
(1Co 15:22-25)

We see through a glass darkly the specific outworking of this plan of the ages- a few verses here and there give us a broad outline- but we know certain absolute completions will take place, because the Word clearly states them in multiple places.

For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
(Php 2:9-11)

Some would say this is fulfilled as God forces the knee and the tongue just before annihilation or eternal torment-  I believe John saw something else

Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice, "Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing." And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever." And the four living creatures kept saying, "Amen." And the elders fell down and worshiped.
(Rev 5:11-14)

Jesus, as the firstborn of creation, has inherited all things. We have been given a share in this inheritance, seated with Christ in the heavenlies, co-heirs . This share is measured according to our stewardship, in the details, but in the broad overview it is the absolute declared will and kind intention of the Sovereign One.

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. For it was the Father's good pleasure (eu dokia kind intention/ good will/ good pleasure) for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.
(Col 1:15-20)

Remember what the wisdom of God says of itself

But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, reasonable, full of mercy and good fruits, unwavering, without hypocrisy. And the seed whose fruit is righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.
(Jas 3:17-18)

Isa 52:7  How lovely on the mountains Are the feet of him who brings good news, Who announces peace And brings good news of happiness, Who announces salvation, And says to Zion, "Your God reigns!"

And, lo, the angel of the Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them: and they were sore afraid. And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings(eu-aggelo gospel/good message) of great joy, which shall be to all people. For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord. And this shall be a sign unto you; Ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger. And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying, Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will (eu-dokia good pleasure/kind intention) toward men.
(Luk 2:9-14)



Peace, John
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.com

Offline gregoryfl

  • 300
  • *
  • Posts: 437
Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #427 on: March 30, 2010, 07:29:56 PM »
I must be a defenition that applies to God and man (unless nacham isn't used in all OT verses)
So "have compasion" doesn't seem to fit. => God can have compassion with His creation but I doubt His creation repents out of compassion for God.

"ease oneself" could fit for man but sounds like a changing God..... So option either.

English is not my first language but for me "regret" sounds to much like seeing a fault in your actions => possible for man. Not so for God.

"grief" is only one that fits both God and man. I think the best method is just collect all verses and replace every "repent*" with "grief" as see if the verses still make sense.

*= and all other words translated from nacham.
Actually, the idea of grieving is already expressed in another word. For example:

Gen 6:6  Yahweh was sorry [nacham: sighed] that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved[atsab: to be cut] him in his heart. I still think sigh best conveys the idea of nacham, in my opinion.

Offline WhiteWings

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 12890
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahshua heals
    • My sites
Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #428 on: March 30, 2010, 07:40:26 PM »
Sounds good in this verse but not in others.
I'm not very convinced. I looked at some possibilities myself but  :thumbdown:
Do you mind if I start a new thread and copy your posts to it?
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline gregoryfl

  • 300
  • *
  • Posts: 437
Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #429 on: March 30, 2010, 07:41:40 PM »
Howdy Ron  :hithere:

Hebrew in the Greek?

Do you also have such a word picture for nacham? Gen 6:6

BTW I think this deserves its own thread in Word studies.

Yep! Nacham comes out of the parent root word nach, which conveys the picture of the seed (picturing life) with a fence (picturing protection or dividing off). The idea comes from shepherds who stop to rest for the night. Part of what they do is set up an enclosure, a fence of sticks, for the sheep to be protected while they rest. So adding a mem to the end of the word (picturing something strong, such as the sea) completes the idea of sighing, either negatively or positively, because a sigh is a strong exhalation of breath.

Ron

Offline gregoryfl

  • 300
  • *
  • Posts: 437
Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #430 on: March 30, 2010, 07:42:53 PM »
Sounds good in this verse but not in others.
I'm not very convinced. I looked at some possibilities myself but  :thumbdown:
Do you mind if I start a new thread and copy your posts to it?
Sure bro :). Please share with me what verses you don't find very convincing if you don't mind. :)

Thanks

Offline gregoryfl

  • 300
  • *
  • Posts: 437
Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #431 on: March 30, 2010, 08:02:44 PM »
To finish the thought of my initial post, the idea behind BOTH the Hebrew word for comfort and the Hebrew word for regret is that of sighing. Here is why:

When you sigh, it can be both a positive sigh and a negative one, depending on the context. For example, in the case of the comfort that would be brought by Noah, it would be a sigh of relief.

Gen 5:29  and he calls his trademark Nakh, to say:  here he will provide us sighing from our shaping, and from the wrenching of our hands from the soil, which Ieue spit upon. My translation

Notice that it is an emotion expressed. In the case of the regret that God felt because of the wickedness of man, it was a sigh of weariness.

Gen 6:6 and Ieue sighs that he shaped the man in the land; and there is a wrenching toward his inner-shepherd. My translation

Again, this is an emotion expressed. I do not believe it is a change of mind. The idea of repenting as a change of mind is expressed in the Hebrew word Shub. This is the word you would find in a Hebrew version of the New testament wherever the Greek word for repent is used, such as in Acts 2:38. It expresses the idea of pressing back to the tent, or more simply, to return home.

I have a copy of the Hebrew New Testament, and it is guesswork done by Hebrew Scholars after the fact. My copy was provided by "The Society for Distributing Hebrew Scriptures" in England. Basically, they look to New Testament quotations from the Old Testament Hebrew/Chaldee text, and interpolate, then extrapolate back to what they think is appropriate. The problem I have is, it wasn't inspired by the Holy spirit to present the new Testament to the Hebrew nation in the first generation of Christians.
I can appreciate that. Yes, any Hebrew rendition of the New testament is not inspired by God. I am just pointing out that the Hebrew word that they understand to be the equivalent of metanoeo (repent) was not nacham, but shub. And according to the usages of both Hebrew words in scripture, at least to me it makes sense why shub would be the correct equivalent.

Quote from: Theo Book
I do not disagree with your assessment, I only hasten to point out, we debate "free will" as though it is terminology found in scripture, but it is simply our own expression of what is taught. "Free will" is absent as a term of expression in the written account itself. So, to continue to discuss meanings and possibilities as to what was really intended to convey as opposed to how it was translated, seems to me to be an endless exercise in comparing scholars' findings. Whether God "repented" or whether he "sighed" changes nothing as to the results; i.e., he created, he saw, he "reacted," he destroyed. WHATEVER that reaction comprised, the resultant action was the opposite of the beginning action; i.e., creation/destruction.

Have I missed something?
I also believe that God reacted to the situation, meaning that he responded by taking action. Whether such a response is the result of God not knowing beforehand how mankind would behave, and therefore decided to do something else other than what he had planned, or whether he already knew exactly how man would behave, and also what he would do, and yet, in the doing, still expressed emotion during it, is what we need to ascertain. That is why I do believe there is a big difference between the idea of repenting, or changing your mind from what you originally wanted to do, and sighing over something that would cause you to sigh.

Am enjoying this discussion with you my brother,  :cloud9:

Ron

Theo Book

  • Guest
Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #432 on: March 31, 2010, 12:18:46 AM »
Why? We all the time make plans, with contingent possibilities, and when contingencies happen, we are not "surprised" but rather are "prepared" for any circumstance, and react accordingly.
And that's the difference. We make plans all the time. God only made one plan.

Quote
But God said "if" in the manner of "If this" ---"then that."

YOUR assessment was NOT that God used "if" in a conditional fashion, but rather you said "God doesn't know the word "if." How am I to understand anything if you guys keep changing what you are saying?
If this was a isolated quote I would agree. But how often it has been said in this thread that God doesn't change (His plans), nothing takes Him by suprise, knew all before He even set the plan in motion.
That for me means that there are no ifs for Father. At least not as a possibility.
I hope you at least understand what I mean. Even if you don't agree. :laughing7:

When reading on this forum always keep in mind that "no changing plans" and "knew all before creation" are like foundation stones of reasoning for many here.
You don't have to agree; but it will make understanding many posts much easier.

 :Peace:

When someone says "God doesn't know the word "if," that goes beyond simply referencing what is common knowledge to those on the board. Please, let us speak the same things, and agree or disagree , on the "same things." God does know th word "if" and builds quite a lot of doctrine and consequence on the supposition that "if," "then consequences," so it becomes a little misleading to say '"God doesn't know the word "if."

Theo Book

  • Guest
Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #433 on: March 31, 2010, 12:26:05 AM »
Hi Theo

  I think it is important to realize that there are two viewpoints being discussed. One is the overall viewpoint of God over the entire course of time through out the ages. One is the perspective of man in his dealings with God, seen through a glass darkly, through the veil of time. There are certain things we can accept, because the scriptures say them, about God and His overall omniscience and omnipotence. I do not draw any conclusion that I do not find witnessed in the scriptures (not to say I fully understand them, rather to say I fully respect them in all my considerations).
  There are certain things we can accept because the scriptures say them, about the conditions of our stewardship of time and the free will that God allows us within that stewardship. Therefore, I believe that God "works all things according to the counsel of His will" so that every action and reaction is resolving towards His goal in His administration of the ages- towards His ultimate intention, which is the reconciliation of all. I believe this because I believe the scriptures say so and because the Holy Spirit is bearing witness to the truth of it.
  At the same time, the Holy Spirit is teaching me, through the trials and experiences of life and growing in the wisdom of the Logos, that I have a free will and there are consequences to the stewardship I exercise over it. I know that we all have different views on the measure of free will God allows. I believe it is a great degree, a large measure, because, "For freedom Christ has set you free". God's ultimate intention is the free will harmony of every soul in the universe. We, as sons, have received an inheritance with Christ- it is our privilege to function as a priestly kingdom and participate in the reconciliation of all things, having been set free into the glorious liberty of the sons of God, into the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.
   So, "Today", in this "Day that the Lord has made", we must choose whom we will serve, and the consequences of our choices are momentous, even though all things are conditioned by grace. The paradox that is created between the ultimate, over all grace of God and this stewardship He gives men in this life is a paradox that we, in our arrogance, are uncomfortable with- so we try to put it in a "logic box"- the clay trying to put the fine lines of definition on the potter and His ways. I spent years wrestling with such things, and I still do wrestle with them. One thing I have wrestled out of this mystery- "that was hidden in the ages past but is now manifested by the words of the prophets and the apostles", is that you can't take the word and divide it into a force fed systematic theology for the dominion of babes- the naturally minded. Those who prefer the gospel to be completely subjugated to intellect will never perceive it. It is hidden from them. "That seeing they might not perceive, that hearing they might not understand". To this day when Moses is read a veil remains, said Paul to the Corinthians. So also, to this day, when Jesus is read a veil remains for many, because they do not understand what is hidden in plain sight.

  "Today, if you hear His voice"

   Sometimes we say "if", because we are speaking of conditional transactions between God and man. They are conditional because He has made them so. Yet, as regards the clear unconditional statements of the word about the ultimate purposes of God- we do not say if, because God has not said "if".

For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly(not of its own will), but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.
(Rom 8:19-23)

This not an accident of free will that God is recovering from. He subjected the creation to futility in a plan conceived before the foundation of the world

Rom 8:29  For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

We have been called to share a purpose and an inheritance in Christ. Let us labor diligently to enter into His rest.

He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention(eu-dokia) which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory.
(Eph 1:9-12)

This purpose is the summing up of all things in Christ, to the end that ultimately God will be all in all(1 Cor 15:22-28)

But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
(Eph 2:4-7)

We who are faithful in this stewardship of grace, as the first to hope in Christ, have great reward. We will share in the beautiful effulgence of the grace of God as it emerges through the ages until the ages be fulfilled.

For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
(1Co 15:22-25)

We see through a glass darkly the specific outworking of this plan of the ages- a few verses here and there give us a broad outline- but we know certain absolute completions will take place, because the Word clearly states them in multiple places.

For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
(Php 2:9-11)

Some would say this is fulfilled as God forces the knee and the tongue just before annihilation or eternal torment-  I believe John saw something else

Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice, "Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing." And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever." And the four living creatures kept saying, "Amen." And the elders fell down and worshiped.
(Rev 5:11-14)

Jesus, as the firstborn of creation, has inherited all things. We have been given a share in this inheritance, seated with Christ in the heavenlies, co-heirs . This share is measured according to our stewardship, in the details, but in the broad overview it is the absolute declared will and kind intention of the Sovereign One.

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. For it was the Father's good pleasure (eu dokia kind intention/ good will/ good pleasure) for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.
(Col 1:15-20)

Remember what the wisdom of God says of itself

But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, reasonable, full of mercy and good fruits, unwavering, without hypocrisy. And the seed whose fruit is righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.
(Jas 3:17-18)

Isa 52:7  How lovely on the mountains Are the feet of him who brings good news, Who announces peace And brings good news of happiness, Who announces salvation, And says to Zion, "Your God reigns!"

And, lo, the angel of the Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them: and they were sore afraid. And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings(eu-aggelo gospel/good message) of great joy, which shall be to all people. For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord. And this shall be a sign unto you; Ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger. And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying, Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will (eu-dokia good pleasure/kind intention) toward men.
(Luk 2:9-14)



Peace, John

I find no issue in this post that requires correction. I might say some of it differently, but that is just my own background, not a bias. Good post. Excellent rendition of scripture.

Theo Book

  • Guest
Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #434 on: March 31, 2010, 12:50:14 AM »
Just one comment to this brother;

Quote
That is why I do believe there is a big difference between the idea of repenting, or changing your mind from what you originally wanted to do, and sighing over something that would cause you to sigh.

My focus is in the change in the result of the original intent, fostered by the fact of creation/destruction. I do not see nearly as much justification for total destruction tied to a sigh, as I do tied to a complete reversal of intent. THAT is my objection. Not which Hebrew word best expresses the new testament concept.

Quote
Am enjoying this discussion with you my brother,  :cloud9: Ron

As do I, always.
My biggest dismay is when I pour out my heart in effort to be understood only to have some poor soul post to me that I have insulted his God or hurt his feelings. It is refreshing to deal with you.

Offline jabcat

  • Admin
  • *
  • Posts: 8952
  • SINNER SAVED BY GRACE
Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #435 on: March 31, 2010, 01:31:02 AM »
My biggest dismay is when I pour out my heart in effort to be understood only to have some poor soul post to me that I have insulted his God or hurt his feelings. It is refreshing to deal with you.

God's teaching and growing us all brother.  Take what God gives you personally and let go of the rest.   :2c:
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline Beloved Servant

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 4290
  • David's sling
Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #436 on: March 31, 2010, 03:22:48 AM »
Just one comment to this brother;

Quote
That is why I do believe there is a big difference between the idea of repenting, or changing your mind from what you originally wanted to do, and sighing over something that would cause you to sigh.

My focus is in the change in the result of the original intent, fostered by the fact of creation/destruction. I do not see nearly as much justification for total destruction tied to a sigh, as I do tied to a complete reversal of intent. THAT is my objection. Not which Hebrew word best expresses the new testament concept.

Quote
Am enjoying this discussion with you my brother,  :cloud9: Ron

As do I, always.
My biggest dismay is when I pour out my heart in effort to be understood only to have some poor soul post to me that I have insulted his God or hurt his feelings. It is refreshing to deal with you.

Am I that "some poor soul" you speak of?

Offline peacemaker

  • Bronze
  • *
  • Posts: 1043
Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #437 on: March 31, 2010, 06:24:18 AM »
Am I that "some poor soul" you speak of?

"GEE WILLIKERS"...Beloved.  :mblush:

Offline peacemaker

  • Bronze
  • *
  • Posts: 1043
Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #438 on: March 31, 2010, 06:32:17 AM »
What if?

"Stay indoors if it rains; an uncertainty at best."

An Anthropopathic expression, ascribing human feelings?

The structure of if then or else forms within the tree of decisions. And it is due to our choices to accept or reject, that
we do not see the true nature of things. Thus, let us not impute, if's, ands, or buts to something because of fear or discomfort.

"Life isn't about waiting for a storm to pass, it's about learning to dance in the rain as the SPIRIT leads us."

peacemaker

Offline eaglesway

  • < Moderator >
  • *
  • Posts: 3993
  • Gender: Male
  • Grace & Peace be multiplied unto you, in Jesus
    • Hell is a Myth.com
Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #439 on: March 31, 2010, 07:17:17 AM »


"Life isn't about waiting for a storm to pass, it's about learning to dance in the rain as the SPIRIT leads us."

peacemaker

sublime truth
The Logos is complete, but it is not completely understood. hellisamyth.com

Offline peacemaker

  • Bronze
  • *
  • Posts: 1043
Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #440 on: March 31, 2010, 08:22:05 AM »
Every good thing given and every perfect gift is (A) from above, coming down from (B) the Father of lights, (C) with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow. (James 1:17)

The wisdom (A) from above is first (B) pure, then (C) peaceable, (D) gentle, reasonable, (E) full of mercy and good fruits, (F) unwavering, without (G) hypocrisy.  :gthumbsup:

1 Corinthians 13   :this:



Offline WhiteWings

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 12890
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahshua heals
    • My sites
Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #441 on: March 31, 2010, 08:36:10 AM »
When someone says "God doesn't know the word "if," that goes beyond simply referencing what is common knowledge to those on the board. Please, let us speak the same things,
Ok, Theo I will try to be more clear in the future. Sometimes just trying to be not so long winded. :winkgrin:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 12890
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahshua heals
    • My sites
Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #442 on: March 31, 2010, 08:38:59 AM »
"Life isn't about waiting for a storm to pass, it's about learning to dance in the rain as the SPIRIT leads us."
I'm singing in the rain  :laughing7:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline jabcat

  • Admin
  • *
  • Posts: 8952
  • SINNER SAVED BY GRACE
Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #443 on: March 31, 2010, 09:02:51 AM »
When someone says "God doesn't know the word "if," that goes beyond simply referencing what is common knowledge to those on the board. Please, let us speak the same things,
Ok, Theo I will try to be more clear in the future. Sometimes just trying to be not so long winded. :winkgrin:

Hey Theo.  This guy from The Netherlands actually does pretty good, especially for someone who learned English from watching The Dukes of Hazzard reruns  :laughhand:
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline peacemaker

  • Bronze
  • *
  • Posts: 1043
Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #444 on: March 31, 2010, 09:15:54 AM »
"Life isn't about waiting for a storm to pass, it's about learning to dance in the rain as the SPIRIT leads us."
I'm singing in the rain  :laughing7:   

Now, that's called a shower bath:LH:
 

Theo Book

  • Guest
Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #445 on: March 31, 2010, 12:37:56 PM »
Just one comment to this brother;

Quote
That is why I do believe there is a big difference between the idea of repenting, or changing your mind from what you originally wanted to do, and sighing over something that would cause you to sigh.

My focus is in the change in the result of the original intent, fostered by the fact of creation/destruction. I do not see nearly as much justification for total destruction tied to a sigh, as I do tied to a complete reversal of intent. THAT is my objection. Not which Hebrew word best expresses the new testament concept.

Quote
Am enjoying this discussion with you my brother,  :cloud9: Ron

As do I, always.
My biggest dismay is when I pour out my heart in effort to be understood only to have some poor soul post to me that I have insulted his God or hurt his feelings. It is refreshing to deal with you.

Am I that "some poor soul" you speak of?

We all are in one way or another, pleading to God for truth and understanding, for the one without the other is not truth, it is simply a set of facts.

Theo Book

  • Guest
Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #446 on: March 31, 2010, 02:10:18 PM »
Why? We all the time make plans, with contingent possibilities, and when contingencies happen, we are not "surprised" but rather are "prepared" for any circumstance, and react accordingly.
And that's the difference. We make plans all the time. God only made one plan.

Quote
But God said "if" in the manner of "If this" ---"then that."

YOUR assessment was NOT that God used "if" in a conditional fashion, but rather you said "God doesn't know the word "if." How am I to understand anything if you guys keep changing what you are saying?
If this was a isolated quote I would agree. But how often it has been said in this thread that God doesn't change (His plans), nothing takes Him by suprise, knew all before He even set the plan in motion.
That for me means that there are no ifs for Father. At least not as a possibility.
I hope you at least understand what I mean. Even if you don't agree. :laughing7:

When reading on this forum always keep in mind that "no changing plans" and "knew all before creation" are like foundation stones of reasoning for many here.
You don't have to agree; but it will make understanding many posts much easier.

 :Peace:

That's kinda like saying "If you eliminate "free will" and "IF conditions" from the scriptures, and remove the bottom half of the "Potter" story, you will have Universal Salvation. THOSE are "foundation stones" of SCRIPTURE. But it is your board.

"..are we chaining scriptures out of context to make the Bible say what is really just in our hearts?  A passage of scripture must be interpreted in context.."- Gary Amirault, Tentmaker Ministries.

Offline WhiteWings

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 12890
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahshua heals
    • My sites
Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #447 on: March 31, 2010, 02:50:41 PM »
Why? We all the time make plans, with contingent possibilities, and when contingencies happen, we are not "surprised" but rather are "prepared" for any circumstance, and react accordingly.
And that's the difference. We make plans all the time. God only made one plan.

Quote
But God said "if" in the manner of "If this" ---"then that."

YOUR assessment was NOT that God used "if" in a conditional fashion, but rather you said "God doesn't know the word "if." How am I to understand anything if you guys keep changing what you are saying?
If this was a isolated quote I would agree. But how often it has been said in this thread that God doesn't change (His plans), nothing takes Him by suprise, knew all before He even set the plan in motion.
That for me means that there are no ifs for Father. At least not as a possibility.
I hope you at least understand what I mean. Even if you don't agree. :laughing7:

When reading on this forum always keep in mind that "no changing plans" and "knew all before creation" are like foundation stones of reasoning for many here.
You don't have to agree; but it will make understanding many posts much easier.

 :Peace:

That's kinda like saying "If you eliminate "free will" and "IF conditions" from the scriptures, and remove the bottom half of the "Potter" story, you will have Universal Salvation. THOSE are "foundation stones" of SCRIPTURE. But it is your board.

"..are we chaining scriptures out of context to make the Bible say what is really just in our hearts?  A passage of scripture must be interpreted in context.."- Gary Amirault, Tentmaker Ministries.
It's not my board Theo. I'm a guest just like you.
The main foundation stone is that Father is all knowing etc. So my post has nothing to do with removing things so UR fits.
I see it the other way around. UR doesn't remove foundations stones. Other denominations add foundation stones (build on quicksand)

All denominations agree Father is all knowing. All powerfull. Noone can change His will. Perfect in all His ways Etc.
It's also commonly accepted clay has no desire/will for anything. Also commonly accepted is the fact that the potter controls the clay. Not the other way around.
But still the parable gets twisted into:
- Clay has will/desire.
- The master Potter is a novice instead of a perfect pro.
- Other things that minimize the control of the potter.

Potter and clay is about having control and being controled.
If it was about free will I'm sure I'm sure other parable would have been used. Like a fight between equally strong animals for example. Say lion-Jesus and tiger-satan.

 :2c:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Theo Book

  • Guest
Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #448 on: March 31, 2010, 03:17:29 PM »
Why? We all the time make plans, with contingent possibilities, and when contingencies happen, we are not "surprised" but rather are "prepared" for any circumstance, and react accordingly.
And that's the difference. We make plans all the time. God only made one plan.

Quote
But God said "if" in the manner of "If this" ---"then that."

YOUR assessment was NOT that God used "if" in a conditional fashion, but rather you said "God doesn't know the word "if." How am I to understand anything if you guys keep changing what you are saying?
If this was a isolated quote I would agree. But how often it has been said in this thread that God doesn't change (His plans), nothing takes Him by suprise, knew all before He even set the plan in motion.
That for me means that there are no ifs for Father. At least not as a possibility.
I hope you at least understand what I mean. Even if you don't agree. :laughing7:

When reading on this forum always keep in mind that "no changing plans" and "knew all before creation" are like foundation stones of reasoning for many here.
You don't have to agree; but it will make understanding many posts much easier.

 :Peace:

That's kinda like saying "If you eliminate "free will" and "IF conditions" from the scriptures, and remove the bottom half of the "Potter" story, you will have Universal Salvation. THOSE are "foundation stones" of SCRIPTURE. But it is your board.

"..are we chaining scriptures out of context to make the Bible say what is really just in our hearts?  A passage of scripture must be interpreted in context.."- Gary Amirault, Tentmaker Ministries.
It's not my board Theo. I'm a guest just like you.
The main foundation stone is that Father is all knowing etc. So my post has nothing to do with removing things so UR fits.
I see it the other way around. UR doesn't remove foundations stones. Other denominations add foundation stones (build on quicksand)

All denominations agree Father is all knowing. All powerfull. Noone can change His will. Perfect in all His ways Etc.
It's also commonly accepted clay has no desire/will for anything. Also commonly accepted is the fact that the potter controls the clay. Not the other way around.
But still the parable gets twisted into:
- Clay has will/desire.
- The master Potter is a novice instead of a perfect pro.
- Other things that minimize the control of the potter.

Potter and clay is about having control and being controled.
If it was about free will I'm sure I'm sure other parable would have been used. Like a fight between equally strong animals for example. Say lion-Jesus and tiger-satan.

 :2c:

Like I said, if the board opens up to "free will" and we discuss the real theme of the potter/clay and consider all the ramifications of the "IF" conditions of salvation, it begins to paint a far different scenario.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2010, 07:48:12 PM by Theo Book »

Offline Beloved Servant

  • Gold
  • *
  • Posts: 4290
  • David's sling
Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #449 on: March 31, 2010, 05:08:26 PM »
[/quote author=Beloved Servant link=topic=7910.msg93457#msg93457 date=1269994968]
Just one comment to this brother;

Quote
That is why I do believe there is a big difference between the idea of repenting, or changing your mind from what you originally wanted to do, and sighing over something that would cause you to sigh.

My focus is in the change in the result of the original intent, fostered by the fact of creation/destruction. I do not see nearly as much justification for total destruction tied to a sigh, as I do tied to a complete reversal of intent. THAT is my objection. Not which Hebrew word best expresses the new testament concept.

Quote
Am enjoying this discussion with you my brother,  :cloud9: Ron



As do I, always.
My biggest dismay is when I pour out my heart in effort to be understood only to have some poor soul post to me that I have insulted his God or hurt his feelings. It is refreshing to deal with you.

Theo.
Am I that "poor soul" of which you speak?