25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS

[jabcat]

That fits with some things I've seen and thought too Ron, but didn't ever attempt to develop more fully.  Thanks for doing this  

[eaglesway]

A Sigh of David

For the choir director. A Psalm of David, when Nathan the prophet came to him, after he had gone in to Bathsheba.

Be gracious to me, O God, according to Your lovingkindness;
According to the greatness of Your compassion blot out my transgressions.
Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity
And cleanse me from my sin.
For I know my transgressions,
And my sin is ever before me.
Against You, You only, I have sinned
And done what is evil in Your sight,
So that You are justified when You speak
And blameless when You judge.
Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
And in sin my mother conceived me.
Behold, You desire truth in the innermost being,
And in the hidden part You will make me know wisdom.
Purify me with hyssop, and I shall be clean;
Wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
Make me to hear joy and gladness,
Let the bones which You have broken rejoice.
Hide Your face from my sins
And blot out all my iniquities.
Create in me a clean heart, O God,
And renew a steadfast spirit within me.
Do not cast me away from Your presence
And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.
Restore to me the joy of Your salvation
And sustain me with a willing spirit.
Then I will teach transgressors Your ways,
And sinners will be converted to You.
Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, the God of my salvation;
Then my tongue will joyfully sing of Your righteousness.
O Lord, open my lips,
That my mouth may declare Your praise.
For You do not delight in sacrifice, otherwise I would give it;
You are not pleased with burnt offering.
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit;
A broken and a contrite heart, O God, You will not despise.
By Your favor do good to Zion;
Build the walls of Jerusalem.
Then You will delight in righteous sacrifices,
In burnt offering and whole burnt offering;
Then young bulls will be offered on Your altar.
(Psa 51:1-19)

[bobf]

Why is it that men seem always to equate a mind change with error or mistake? God did not make a mistake, nor did he err, he changed his mind. They are not equated.

How do you know that God "repenting" involves God changing His mind (i.e. changing His plan)?  

One of the verses about God repenting shows that God planned to repent in the future.  You cannot plan to change your plan since the change of plan is part of the plan.

The example I'm thinking of is in Deuteronomy... "God will judge His people and repent when their power is gone...."  So God plans to repent.  So God repenting cannot be a change of plan.  Rather, it is a change of attitude and action when the conditions are right.  God will judge His people in vengance then God will repent.  He will stop judging and have mercy.

So "repent" does not have to mean "oops... I need to try something else here since conditions have unexpectedly changed..."  Rather it can mean "conditions have changed as I knew they would and so as planned I'm now going to do this instead of that"

[eaglesway]

Very edified, says I, good sir!

[Pierac]

I am discovering something about myself. I am heartily interested in what you guys have to say, but I am very defensive of what I already think I know. I have made several giant steps recently, and have to slow down in order to retain perspective. You cannot teach a man to parachute by pushing him out of the plane and THEN telling him how to pack his chute.

Patience. I am not only inundated with something new, it is not the same as the issues Gary and I debated so long ago. Most of it is new. It requires time to assimilate into my belief system basically BECAUSE so much of it requires a change in perspective. Remember, I have focussed on trinity doctrine for over fifty years, and this requires a tremendous mental exercise on my part. Some aspects of this need to blend with some aspects of  One thing I know tht is common to whatever truth I believe, and that is it must be God's word, and not man's, mine included.

Patience.what I consider basic truths, while other aspects will replace what I thought I knew.

Yea, is sucks to know you were a follower of men for over 27years with out question!  Just letting others tell you what to believe and follow. Ask me how I know!     I don't follow any more, I now ask the tough questions and understand U.R. is but baby steps into the truth of God's plan for humanity!

Paul

[gregoryfl]

To finish the thought of my initial post, the idea behind BOTH the Hebrew word for comfort and the Hebrew word for regret is that of sighing. Here is why:

When you sigh, it can be both a positive sigh and a negative one, depending on the context. For example, in the case of the comfort that would be brought by Noah, it would be a sigh of relief.

Gen 5:29  and he calls his trademark Nakh, to say:  here he will provide us sighing from our shaping, and from the wrenching of our hands from the soil, which Ieue spit upon. My translation

Notice that it is an emotion expressed. In the case of the regret that God felt because of the wickedness of man, it was a sigh of weariness.

Gen 6:6 and Ieue sighs that he shaped the man in the land; and there is a wrenching toward his inner-shepherd. My translation

Again, this is an emotion expressed. I do not believe it is a change of mind. The idea of repenting as a change of mind is expressed in the Hebrew word Shub. This is the word you would find in a Hebrew version of the New testament wherever the Greek word for repent is used, such as in Acts 2:38. It expresses the idea of pressing back to the tent, or more simply, to return home.

What I see Gen 6:6 saying is that God looked at all the wickeness of man and he expressed deep emotion over it, a sighing of weariness and a wrenching of his heart. We can see this same connection between wickedness and how it affects God here:

Isa 43:24  You have bought me no sweet cane with money, nor have you filled me with the fat of your sacrifices; but you have burdened me with your sins. You have wearied me with your iniquities.


That is one thing that is so amazing about God, is that even though he knows the end from the beginning, he is not emotionally disconnected from what goes on. He is intimately there, through the pain and through the joy of all that goes on.

Ron

[eaglesway]

Paul said, "That when you read you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ".

It is all there in the Logos, and the Spirit is your guide

You have no need that any man teach you for you have an anointing that teaches you all things

The Holy Spirit will lead you and guide you into all truth

All any human can do is "stir you up by way of reminder"

You have been begotten, not by the will of man, nor the will of the flesh, but by the will of God
You have been begotten by the implantation of the incorruptible seed of the living and abiding Word of God
You have received, in it, in Him, everything pertaining to life and godliness through the true knowledge of Him

The whole tree is hidden in the seed, but it takes time to grow, to be revealed- an oak of righteousness, the planting of the Lord.

[eaglesway]

Very edifying words Ron

[gregoryfl]

I think your rendition may well be right on track, but for another reason. When Jesus said God will send another comfortor, remember how Noah was "comforted?" God sent a dove. Remember how the Holy Spirit was depicted at Jesus' baptism? A dove. God is going to send another dove, i.e., the Holy Spirit, which he gives to those that love him.

What say you?

As one who loves to study the thematic connections and chiastic structures that are found throughout scripture, I applaud you for the connection you found my dear brother!   There is definitely a connection between the dove during Noah's day, who fluttered in looking for a place to rest among the restless waters, and the Spirit of God, who fluttered over the watery deep during creation (Gen 1:2) and the ultimate fulfillment of that when the Spirit came to rest on Jesus, and on and in us today as his body, permanently.

Ron

[gregoryfl]

You have received, in it, in Him, everything pertaining to life and godliness through the true knowledge of Him

The whole tree is hidden in the seed, but it takes time to grow, to be revealed- an oak of righteousness, the planting of the Lord.

My prayer is that more of us would grasp that simple yet profound truth. 

Ron

[eaglesway]

Even as the dove returned with the olive branch in its beak

Even as Christ has received the Holy Spirit without measure and says, "Peace, give I unto thee."

Even as He has sends us as lambs among wolves, anointed by the same Spirit, entrusting us with the ministry of reconciliation....

But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, reasonable, full of mercy and good fruits, unwavering, without hypocrisy. And the seed whose fruit is righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.
(Jas 3:17-18)

Let there be light!

[peacemaker]

"Hearing the sigh of the wind from the midst of the garden."

And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. (Romans 12:2)

You will probably notice that this is also the cure for whispering imaginations and sorrow without cause.

peacemaker

[WhiteWings]

That fits with some things I've seen and thought too Ron, but didn't ever attempt to develop more fully.  Thanks for doing this  

I wonder if we are discussing the wrong word. If a word has so many defenition, especially opposite ones, I can't help wondering what defenition to use. And which one was used by Jesus. It's a bit like the aion translations in KJV. Eternal, world etc. But the translation "age" fits in all verses.
So perhaps repent should be replaced by one of the other defenitions and suddenly all verses align...

[jabcat]

It's apparently this word - Nacham - which I've looked at before.  It appears to me to be one of those "ancient" words that context of many scriptures and precepts helps define.  With many of orthodoxy's accepted beliefs (God going to Plan B, man having control, etc.) then "repent" at least seems to almost fit.  But in a bigger context of God actually having control of things from the beginning and all the way through, having a Plan A that wasn't thwarted by humanity, etc., then other likely meanings begin to come into focus.  I.e., God knows the end from the beginning, and has predestined things according to His will - He's not just "making it up as He goes" - so definitions more like "grieving", "hurting", "sighing", etc. start to perhaps fit better. 

Check it out, and maybe others will develop it more.   

[jabcat]

IMO, since I believe God knows the end from the beginning;  had one plan that included both Jesus being slain from the foundation of the world and that He would eventually reconcile all back to Himself and become All in All, then the following bolded definitions are worth considering;

from nacham and derivatives -

to be sorry, console oneself, repent, regret, comfort, be comforted  
be moved to pity, have compassion
rue, suffer grief
 ease oneself

Maybe even "regret" in a sense;  as in, if I needed to spank my child, I may regret it, but still need and choose to do it - and would likely have known it would be necessary even before I chose to have him/her.  

[WhiteWings]

I must be a defenition that applies to God and man (unless nacham isn't used in all OT verses)
So "have compasion" doesn't seem to fit. => God can have compassion with His creation but I doubt His creation repents out of compassion for God.

"ease oneself" could fit for man but sounds like a changing God..... So option either.

English is not my first language but for me "regret" sounds to much like seeing a fault in your actions => possible for man. Not so for God.

"grief" is only one that fits both God and man. I think the best method is just collect all verses and replace every "repent*" with "grief" as see if the verses still make sense.

*= and all other words translated from nacham.

[gregoryfl]

Hey Whitewings :)

Part of the confusion is that the Hebrew word repent, such as is found in the Greek of Acts 2:38:

Repent, and be baptized...

is not nacham, but shub. The first usage of that word tells us what shub means:

Gen 3:19  By the sweat of your face will you eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For you are dust, and to dust you shall return."

The word picture conveyed is the idea of returning to the tent in which you live, going back home. If my memory serves me right, God is never said to shub, only man is:

Hos 14:1  Israel, return [shub] to Yahweh your God; for you have fallen because of your sin.

Ron

[WhiteWings]

Howdy Ron 

Hebrew in the Greek?

Do you also have such a word picture for nacham? Gen 6:6

BTW I think this deserves its own thread in Word studies.

[Theo Book]

Why is it that men seem always to equate a mind change with error or mistake? God did not make a mistake, nor did he err, he changed his mind. They are not equated.

How do you know that God "repenting" involves God changing His mind (i.e. changing His plan)?  

One of the verses about God repenting shows that God planned to repent in the future.  You cannot plan to change your plan since the change of plan is part of the plan.

The example I'm thinking of is in Deuteronomy... "God will judge His people and repent when their power is gone...."  So God plans to repent.  So God repenting cannot be a change of plan.  Rather, it is a change of attitude and action when the conditions are right.  God will judge His people in vengance then God will repent.  He will stop judging and have mercy.

So "repent" does not have to mean "oops... I need to try something else here since conditions have unexpectedly changed..."  Rather it can mean "conditions have changed as I knew they would and so as planned I'm now going to do this instead of that"

Man does this all the time, making plans that include possibilities, which we call "contingency" plans. "IF" this, "THEN that. We plan to change our plan to meet existing conditions, that change all the time. And
WE learned it from God. And when we invent something for man's use, and it inadvertently kills someone because of a fault, we destroy it, having "changed our mind" about its value to mankind.

I did not put the words in the context, nor did I take part in the translation. I only deal with what is provided by God and scholars, and the mind God gave me for "thinking on these things." Sometimes scholars get it wrong. somethimes they get it right. We only argue the differences.

[Theo Book]

I am discovering something about myself. I am heartily interested in what you guys have to say, but I am very defensive of what I already think I know. I have made several giant steps recently, and have to slow down in order to retain perspective. You cannot teach a man to parachute by pushing him out of the plane and THEN telling him how to pack his chute.

Patience. I am not only inundated with something new, it is not the same as the issues Gary and I debated so long ago. Most of it is new. It requires time to assimilate into my belief system basically BECAUSE so much of it requires a change in perspective. Remember, I have focussed on trinity doctrine for over fifty years, and this requires a tremendous mental exercise on my part. Some aspects of this need to blend with some aspects of  One thing I know tht is common to whatever truth I believe, and that is it must be God's word, and not man's, mine included.

Patience.what I consider basic truths, while other aspects will replace what I thought I knew.

Yea, is sucks to know you were a follower of men for over 27years with out question!  Just letting others tell you what to believe and follow.

Where did THAT come from? I did not say I followed men without question. I said it was not an issue with me because I was focussed elsewhere.

 

Ask me how I know! [/color]     I don't follow any more, I now ask the tough questions and understand U.R. is but baby steps into the truth of God's plan for humanity!

Paul

O.K. Here's a "tough question" for you. Where do you fit this in: the scripture that tells you to "resist the devil and he will flee from you?" And,


Romans 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.   

Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

[WhiteWings]

/edit answer to reply #418

I can agree with that for most of it Theo.
In a way man plans like God.
But man switches behavior, plans, methods, approaches, etc because:

a] a change of mind
b] flawed design
c] external factors

None of that applies to God. He knew how every second of the plan would work out and what actions He would take at that moment.
He had that plan even before creation. So it may seem He changes plan; He just sticks to the plan.
If we would be able to peek into Fathers script we would know that the destruction of Sodom was a planned event (possibly on cosmic scale) Not God being forced to change plan and wipe out evil.

God doesn't know the word IF. God only deals with certainties

So there is difference. Hard to explain for me but I hope you understand it anyway...

[Theo Book]

To finish the thought of my initial post, the idea behind BOTH the Hebrew word for comfort and the Hebrew word for regret is that of sighing. Here is why:

When you sigh, it can be both a positive sigh and a negative one, depending on the context. For example, in the case of the comfort that would be brought by Noah, it would be a sigh of relief.

Gen 5:29  and he calls his trademark Nakh, to say:  here he will provide us sighing from our shaping, and from the wrenching of our hands from the soil, which Ieue spit upon. My translation

Notice that it is an emotion expressed. In the case of the regret that God felt because of the wickedness of man, it was a sigh of weariness.

Gen 6:6 and Ieue sighs that he shaped the man in the land; and there is a wrenching toward his inner-shepherd. My translation

Again, this is an emotion expressed. I do not believe it is a change of mind. The idea of repenting as a change of mind is expressed in the Hebrew word Shub. This is the word you would find in a Hebrew version of the New testament wherever the Greek word for repent is used, such as in Acts 2:38. It expresses the idea of pressing back to the tent, or more simply, to return home.

I have a copy of the Hebrew New Testament, and it is guesswork done by Hebrew Scholars after the fact. My copy was provided by "The Society for Distributing Hebrew Scriptures" in England. Basically, they look to New Testament quotations from the Old Testament Hebrew/Chaldee text, and interpolate, then extrapolate back to what they think is appropriate. The problem I have is, it wasn't inspired by the Holy spirit to present the new Testament to the Hebrew nation in the first generation of Christians.

What I see Gen 6:6 saying is that God looked at all the wickeness of man and he expressed deep emotion over it, a sighing of weariness and a wrenching of his heart. We can see this same connection between wickedness and how it affects God here:

Isa 43:24  You have bought me no sweet cane with money, nor have you filled me with the fat of your sacrifices; but you have burdened me with your sins. You have wearied me with your iniquities.


That is one thing that is so amazing about God, is that even though he knows the end from the beginning, he is not emotionally disconnected from what goes on. He is intimately there, through the pain and through the joy of all that goes on.

Ron

I do not disagree with your assessment, I only hasten to point out, we debate "free will" as though it is terminology found in scripture, but it is simply our own expression of what is taught. "Free will" is absent as a term of expression in the written account itself. So, to continue to discuss meanings and possibilities as to what was really intended to convey as opposed to how it was translated, seems to me to be an endless exercise in comparing scholars' findings. Whether God "repented" or whether he "sighed" changes nothing as to the results; i.e., he created, he saw, he "reacted," he destroyed. WHATEVER that reaction comprised, the resultant action was the opposite of the beginning action; i.e., creation/destruction.

Have I missed something?

[Theo Book]

/edit answer to reply #418

I can agree with that for most of it Theo.
In a way man plans like God.
But man switches behavior, plans, methods, approaches, etc because:

a] a change of mind
b] flawed design
c] external factors

None of that applies to God. He knew how every second of the plan would work out and what actions He would take at that moment.
He had that plan even before creation. So it may seem He changes plan; He just sticks to the plan.
If we would be able to peek into Fathers script we would know that the destruction of Sodom was a planned event (possibly on cosmic scale) Not God being forced to change plan and wipe out evil.

I do not understand where this use of "forced" comes from. God was never "forced" to do anything. He acted, watched, reacted, settled the issue.

God doesn't know the word IF. God only deals with certainties

1420 verses /1595 uses of word "if" in scripture, all from God. Do a word search on "if ye continue..." and you will see "if" - "then" conditions throughtout scripture.

See some few examples of God's use of "IF."

 1 Samuel 12:14 If ye will fear the LORD, and serve him, and obey his voice, and not rebel against the commandment of the LORD, then shall both ye and also the king that reigneth over you continue following the LORD your God:

 1 Kings 2:4 That the LORD may continue his word which he spake concerning me, saying, If thy children take heed to their way, to walk before me in truth with all their heart and with all their soul, there shall not fail thee (said he) a man on the throne of Israel.

Romans 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. 21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: 23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;


 1 Timothy 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

 1 John 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

[WhiteWings]

/edit answer to reply #418

I can agree with that for most of it Theo.
In a way man plans like God.
But man switches behavior, plans, methods, approaches, etc because:

a] a change of mind
b] flawed design
c] external factors

None of that applies to God. He knew how every second of the plan would work out and what actions He would take at that moment.
He had that plan even before creation. So it may seem He changes plan; He just sticks to the plan.
If we would be able to peek into Fathers script we would know that the destruction of Sodom was a planned event (possibly on cosmic scale) Not God being forced to change plan and wipe out evil.

I do not understand where this use of "forced" comes from. God was never "forced" to do anything. He acted, watched, reacted, settled the issue.

Either something works out as planned and God only should act as planned. => knew it would happen.
Or He just acts on event that took Him by suprise. Then He has 2 choices. Do nothing and let the final plan fail or be forced to react so plan works out fine.

God doesn't know the word IF. God only deals with certainties

1420 verses /1595 uses of word "if" in scripture, all from God. Do a word search on "if ye continue..." and you will see "if" - "then" conditions throughtout scripture.

There are "types" of Ifs.
"If" as in a possibility. => guesswork => humans
"If" as when the time comes it happens. => fact => divine

If I say: If it's gonna rain in 100 days from now I stay indoors I'm saying 2 things. I stay indoors. I have no clue if it will rain.
If God says the same He means: I stay indoors when the rain starts. He already knows it is going to rain in 100 days.

[Theo Book]

/edit answer to reply #418

I can agree with that for most of it Theo.
In a way man plans like God.
But man switches behavior, plans, methods, approaches, etc because:

a] a change of mind
b] flawed design
c] external factors

None of that applies to God. He knew how every second of the plan would work out and what actions He would take at that moment.
He had that plan even before creation. So it may seem He changes plan; He just sticks to the plan.
If we would be able to peek into Fathers script we would know that the destruction of Sodom was a planned event (possibly on cosmic scale) Not God being forced to change plan and wipe out evil.

I do not understand where this use of "forced" comes from. God was never "forced" to do anything. He acted, watched, reacted, settled the issue.

Either something works out as planned and God only should act as planned. => knew it would happen.
Or He just acts on event that took Him by suprise.

Why? We all the time make plans, with contingent possibilities, and when contingencies happen, we are not "surprised" but rather are "prepared" for any circumstance, and react accordingly.

Then He has 2 choices. Do nothing and let the final plan fail or be forced to react so plan works out fine.

God doesn't know the word IF. God only deals with certainties

1420 verses /1595 uses of word "if" in scripture, all from God. Do a word search on "if ye continue..." and you will see "if" - "then" conditions throughtout scripture.

There are "types" of Ifs.
"If" as in a possibility. => guesswork => humans
"If" as when the time comes it happens. => fact => divine

If I say: If it's gonna rain in 100 days from now I stay indoors I'm saying 2 things. I stay indoors. I have no clue if it will rain.
If God says the same He means: I stay indoors when the rain starts. He already knows it is going to rain in 100 days.

But God said "if" in the manner of "If this" ---"then that."

YOUR assessment was NOT that God used "if" in a conditional fashion, but rather you said "God doesn't know the word "if." How am I to understand anything if you guys keep changing what you are saying?