Author Topic: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS  (Read 71800 times)

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Offline Pierac

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #375 on: March 29, 2010, 07:43:41 AM »
So if Adam and Eve were made perfect/good then why the need for a predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God?

 Act 2:23  this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.

The question we should ask is... perferct/good for what? Perfect /good for the plan perhaps?  :laughing7:


Paul

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #376 on: March 29, 2010, 09:26:18 AM »
The question we should ask is... perferct/good for what? Perfect /good for the plan perhaps?  :laughing7:
Exactly  :thumbsup:
I wrote the same with an example in this thread. Likely didn't fit certain doctrines  :winkgrin:
The words good and perfect are words that have to been seen in context. And the person who speaks the words is of great importance too.
I'm sure all heard the saying: "What's a terrorist (very bad) for some is a freedom fighter (very good) for others."
The same act has the opposite meaning depending who you ask.
I think that little word (good/perfect) has a huge impact on this discussion. Even on whole doctrines.
 :2c:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Theo Book

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #377 on: March 29, 2010, 02:57:25 PM »
(WH)
Quote
YOU observe and CLAIM, ...that MAN was created PERFECT and then did IMPERFECT things... Which is NOT what occured.

I on the other hand observe and CLAIM, ...that MAN was created IMPERFECT and then did IMPERFECT things... for what man is, ...is CORRUPT... and he has YET to put on INCORRUPTION -- 1 Cor 15:53-54

YOU are confusing moral corruption with bodily corruption which is common to all flesh, man, beast. bird. fish, whatever. "Putting on incorruption" is simply a euphamism for immortality. Not morality.




Theo Book

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #378 on: March 29, 2010, 03:09:35 PM »
Hello WW. I want to address just one of your points for now -

(WW)
Quote

4 First of the serpent would never have be able to sucessfully tempted Adam and Eve. The would have resisted like Jesus.

Just a point to ponder. Jesus began his ministry by being tempted of the devil. Jesus was about thirty years old at that time. Thirty years of experience among Pharisees, Saduceees, possibly some Essenes, scribes, priests, highpriests, merchants, robbers, thieves, soldiers, parents and choldren, neighbors, friends, strangers, Romans, and many others. In other words he knew OF temptaton by experience of life.

Adam and Eve were newly made, we don't know how long they were in the garden prior to their being tempted, but we do know they were not tempted by Pharisees, Saduceees, possibly some Essenes, scribes, priests, highpriests, merchants, robbers, thieves, soldiers, parents and choldren, neighbors, friends, strangers, Romans, and many others. Nor did they know fear, sickness, things that go "bump" in the night, and many other sources of temptation. They had no experience.

Just a point of view to consider when you say "they would have resisted like Jesus. They had no experience like Jesus, to fall back on, no one to discuss it with, other than God who gave them instruction and was not "walking with them" at the time the serpent struck. In fact, the serpent waited until they were alone in the garden.



Just a thought.












Theo Book

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #379 on: March 29, 2010, 03:14:10 PM »
Quote
God is not only perfect, but is perfectly unable to perform imperfection. I think that pretty well says it all.

Don't really disagree with that.

Quote
I do not understand how folks fail to see God made changes in his plans constantly, because of the exercise of man's will. Look up "repent, repenteth, repented, in a wordsearch program.


God never changes, that doesn't mean he hasn't accounted for all that we do.

Then define "repent" for me.

"And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them." [Gen 6:6-7]

God created, God considered, God repented creating, God destroyed. No change?





Better yet, lets go deeper than one english word that is translated from ancient hebrew and consider scripture and God as a whole.


H5162  nacham  naw-kham'

a primitive root;

properly, to sigh, i.e. breathe strongly; by implication, to be sorry, i.e. (in a
favorable sense) to pity, console or (reflexively) rue; or (unfavorably) to
avenge (oneself):--comfort (self), ease (one's self), repent(-er,-ing, self).


Seems to me based on the favorable sense of the word in context with Gods character, things were right on schedule.

God knew exactly what must happen.

But that wasn't the question. The question (perhaps I was not clear) how does "repentance" fit in with "And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them?" [Gen 6:6-7]

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #380 on: March 29, 2010, 03:41:36 PM »
Hello WW. I want to address just one of your points for now -

(WW)
Quote

4 First of the serpent would never have be able to sucessfully tempted Adam and Eve. The would have resisted like Jesus.

Just a point to ponder. Jesus began his ministry by being tempted of the devil. Jesus was about thirty years old at that time. Thirty years of experience among Pharisees, Saduceees, possibly some Essenes, scribes, priests, highpriests, merchants, robbers, thieves, soldiers, parents and choldren, neighbors, friends, strangers, Romans, and many others. In other words he knew OF temptaton by experience of life.
Jesus also resited all those temptations. And once there was a first tempation. He passed that test while being unexperienced.



Quote
Adam and Eve were newly made, we don't know how long they were in the garden prior to their being tempted,
Yeah that's a whole new topic  :winkgrin:

Quote
but we do know they were not tempted by Pharisees, Saduceees, possibly some Essenes, scribes, priests, highpriests, merchants, robbers, thieves, soldiers, parents and choldren, neighbors, friends, strangers, Romans, and many others. Nor did they know fear, sickness, things that go "bump" in the night, and many other sources of temptation. They had no experience.
Same answer as above. All I will say in this topic there are (strong) indications they where not alone at the age they were tempted. So they might have been tempted but because only the tree was forbidden that's the only thing the Bible reports.

Quote
Just a point of view to consider when you say "they would have resisted like Jesus. They had no experience like Jesus, to fall back on, no one to discuss it with, other than God who gave them instruction and was not "walking with them" at the time the serpent struck. In fact, the serpent waited until they were alone in the garden.
Hypothetical question. Do you think there was no Adam and Eve but Jesus and Eve things would be the same?

Quote
Just a thought.
Ditto :winkgrin:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #381 on: March 29, 2010, 03:51:21 PM »
But that wasn't the question. The question (perhaps I was not clear) how does "repentance" fit in with "And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them?" [Gen 6:6-7]
Assume you are a father with a son that's to rebelious for his own good.
So once in a while you punish him. Does that cheer you up? Or perhaps you are a bit sad about it? That's how it think the verse should be read. Father has a masterplan for educating 10 billion children. That requires ups and down, happyness and sadness. It's the way with the best results.
But that doesn't mean Father likes giving a spanking. Even if the endresult fits perfectly in His masterplan.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #382 on: March 29, 2010, 03:55:59 PM »
Quote
God is not only perfect, but is perfectly unable to perform imperfection. I think that pretty well says it all.

Don't really disagree with that.

Quote
I do not understand how folks fail to see God made changes in his plans constantly, because of the exercise of man's will. Look up "repent, repenteth, repented, in a wordsearch program.


God never changes, that doesn't mean he hasn't accounted for all that we do.

Then define "repent" for me.

"And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them." [Gen 6:6-7]

God created, God considered, God repented creating, God destroyed. No change?





Better yet, lets go deeper than one english word that is translated from ancient hebrew and consider scripture and God as a whole.


H5162  nacham  naw-kham'

a primitive root;

properly, to sigh, i.e. breathe strongly; by implication, to be sorry, i.e. (in a
favorable sense) to pity, console or (reflexively) rue; or (unfavorably) to
avenge (oneself):--comfort (self), ease (one's self), repent(-er,-ing, self).


Seems to me based on the favorable sense of the word in context with Gods character, things were right on schedule.

God knew exactly what must happen.

But that wasn't the question. The question (perhaps I was not clear) how does "repentance" fit in with "And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them?" [Gen 6:6-7]


The question is based on what you think a word means,  the bible was not found in the english language, it was translated, I pointed out where I stood on that word.


God knows what must happen and the fact that we were created and all our paths are before him means it was his will that we even exist and  he was willing to create us and let us go where our will would take us knowing that he has prepared the way for all that man does.  That preparation does two things, it retains our individuality while ensuring that our purpose in Gods kingdom is fulfilled.

There is some disagreement with others on that point because some think I am saying that God "reacts" to us as a point of weakness.  I am saying that our uniqueness and purpose individually within the collective means that we all learn differently and we all have different purposes.   If someone takes that saying we decide what God does and that means I am not holding God high enough, they are wrong and just don't like the way I see it.

He grieves because he knows the pain that is in store for us because of what cannot change.

Just as a loving spirit would want to tear open a cocoon and free the butterfly, those who know the truth understand that you have to let the butterfly go through the struggle.

What has to happen cannot change  and because of that God would like for us not to have to go through pain and death,  but it must be in order for the inhabitance of the earth to learn righteousness, be saved and reconciled.

Whether we like it or not is irrelevant.


Theo Book

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #383 on: March 29, 2010, 04:19:40 PM »
But that wasn't the question. The question (perhaps I was not clear) how does "repentance" fit in with "And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them?" [Gen 6:6-7]
Assume you are a father with a son that's to rebelious for his own good.
So once in a while you punish him. Does that cheer you up? Or perhaps you are a bit sad about it? That's how it think the verse should be read. Father has a masterplan for educating 10 billion children. That requires ups and down, happyness and sadness. It's the way with the best results.
But that doesn't mean Father likes giving a spanking. Even if the endresult fits perfectly in His masterplan.


I think " I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them" says a little more than a "spanking."

Theo Book

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #384 on: March 29, 2010, 04:33:11 PM »
Quote
God is not only perfect, but is perfectly unable to perform imperfection. I think that pretty well says it all.

Don't really disagree with that.

Quote
I do not understand how folks fail to see God made changes in his plans constantly, because of the exercise of man's will. Look up "repent, repenteth, repented, in a wordsearch program.


God never changes, that doesn't mean he hasn't accounted for all that we do.

Then define "repent" for me.

"And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them." [Gen 6:6-7]

God created, God considered, God repented creating, God destroyed. No change?


Better yet, lets go deeper than one english word that is translated from ancient hebrew and consider scripture and God as a whole.

H5162  nacham  naw-kham'

a primitive root;

properly, to sigh, i.e. breathe strongly; by implication, to be sorry, i.e. (in a
favorable sense) to pity, console or (reflexively) rue; or (unfavorably) to
avenge (oneself):--comfort (self), ease (one's self), repent(-er,-ing, self).

Seems to me based on the favorable sense of the word in context with Gods character, things were right on schedule.

God knew exactly what must happen.

But that wasn't the question. The question (perhaps I was not clear) how does "repentance" fit in with "And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them?" [Gen 6:6-7]


The question is based on what you think a word means,  the bible was not found in the english language, it was translated, I pointed out where I stood on that word.

Actually I think what a word means is determined by how it is used throughout scripture. If a word is used consistantly to mean the opposite of how it was used previously, I look elsewhere for deeper understanding. But when God consistently used "repent" in the 26 instances referenced, I think it means "I changed my mind."

And when he followed up on that Gen 6 reference by sending a flood that wiped out all life he had created, excepting only those that were in the ark, I think that tells us his "repenting" was slightly more than simple grieving. It was destructive to the extereme.

Quote
God knows what must happen and the fact that we were created and all our paths are before him means it was his will that we even exist and  he was willing to create us and let us go where our will would take us knowing that he has prepared the way for all that man does.  That preparation does two things, it retains our individuality while ensuring that our purpose in Gods kingdom is fulfilled.

There is some disagreement with others on that point because some think I am saying that God "reacts" to us as a point of weakness.  I am saying that our uniqueness and purpose individually within the collective means that we all learn differently and we all have different purposes.   If someone takes that saying we decide what God does and that means I am not holding God high enough, they are wrong and just don't like the way I see it.

He grieves because he knows the pain that is in store for us because of what cannot change.

Just as a loving spirit would want to tear open a cocoon and free the butterfly, those who know the truth understand that you have to let the butterfly go through the struggle.

What has to happen cannot change  and because of that God would like for us not to have to go through pain and death,  but it must be in order for the inhabitance of the earth to learn righteousness, be saved and reconciled.

Whether we like it or not is irrelevant.


God has no "weakness" nor is he simply "reacting" to man's moves. He continually modifies our course as he directs our steps often in spite of our choices. He will bring us to a realization of his wlll.

What say you?

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #385 on: March 29, 2010, 04:46:10 PM »

God has no "weakness" nor is he simply "reacting" to man's moves. He continually modifies our course as he directs our steps often in spite of our choices. He will bring us to a realization of his wlll.

What say you?



It was his will that we make all the choices that we make because he already knew all we would do and created us despite that.   This modification was already done, the perspective that he does this on the fly is our own perspective, but God already knew every choice we would make and knew what must happen in order for us to not be lost.

Something being Gods will does not mean that he loves what we do that he prepared the way for.  The passage is from a humans perspective of the truth.   God wasn't surprised, He knew all along what he would have to destroy and since that was already known that was what had to happen.

The words you bring up in that passage has nothing to do with God making a mistake and correcting it, it has to do with what he knew he had to do despite the fact that it greived him to have to do it.


« Last Edit: March 29, 2010, 05:02:13 PM by Paul Hazelwood »

Theo Book

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #386 on: March 29, 2010, 05:38:03 PM »

God has no "weakness" nor is he simply "reacting" to man's moves. He continually modifies our course as he directs our steps often in spite of our choices. He will bring us to a realization of his wlll.

What say you?



It was his will that we make all the choices that we make because he already knew all we would do and created us despite that.   This modification was already done, the perspective that he does this on the fly is our own perspective, but God already knew every choice we would make and knew what must happen in order for us to not be lost.

Something being Gods will does not mean that he loves what we do that he prepared the way for.  The passage is from a humans perspective of the truth.   God wasn't surprised, He knew all along what he would have to destroy and since that was already known that was what had to happen.

The words you bring up in that passage has nothing to do with God making a mistake and correcting it, it has to do with what he knew he had to do despite the fact that it greived him to have to do it.




Why is it that men seem always to equate a mind change with error or mistake? God did not make a mistake, nor did he err, he changed his mind.
They are not equated.

Offline eaglesway

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #387 on: March 29, 2010, 06:15:50 PM »
If God's will can be frustrated

In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
(Eph 1:11)

Paul is a liar and the scriptures cannot be trusted

If God's will can be frustrated

"For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur.
(Act 4:27-28)

He can't predestine stuff

If God's will can be frustrated

And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
(Rev 21:5)

God shouldn't say He is making all things new

If God's will can be frustrated

For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all. Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, OR WHO BECAME HIS COUNSELOR? Or WHO HAS FIRST GIVEN TO HIM THAT IT MIGHT BE PAID BACK TO HIM AGAIN? For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.
(Rom 11:32-36)



He needs counseling.... from you maybe?


If God's will can be frustrated

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were createdmaybe, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created sorta through Him and partially for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together mostly. He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything almost. For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself not really, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.
(Col 1:15-20)

We need to add some things to the word

If God's will can be frustrated

"For which one of you, when he wants to build a tower, does not first sit down and calculate the cost to see if he has enough to complete it? "Otherwise, when he has laid a foundation and is not able to finish, all who observe it begin to ridicule him, saying, 'This man began to build and was not able to finish.'
(Luk 14:28-30)

He will be ridiculed from hell forever

If God's will can be frustrated


And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever."
(Rev 5:13)

John was having delusions

If God's will can be frustrated

For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
(Php 2:9-11)

Paul was also having delusions

If God's will can be frustrated

For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death. For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.
(1Co 15:25-28)


All things will not be put under Jesus' feet. Death will not be abolished, but will endure forever. God will never be all in all......................

IF GOD'S WILL CAN BE FRUSTRATED GOD IS NOT GOD
« Last Edit: March 29, 2010, 06:27:11 PM by eaglesway »
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Offline eaglesway

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #388 on: March 29, 2010, 06:34:18 PM »
Repentance is necessary in order to receive the gospel(good news) and escape the judgment to
come. The question is not whether we need repent, it is whether or not the punishment lasts forever- or whether it is meted out according to the measure of the transgressions, some being beaten with many stripes, some with few, and no one escaping until they have "paid the last penny"- which is bowing the knee and confessing with the tongue Jesus as Lord, something every creature in heaven, on earth and under the earth will do to the glory of the Father, until all be subjected to Christ, to the end that God will be all in all. This all according to the gospel, written in the scriptures and declared by the prophets and apostles, the mystery hidden from the wise and prudent but revealed unto babes....

    In all wisdom and insight He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory.
(Eph 1:8-12)
« Last Edit: March 29, 2010, 06:40:20 PM by eaglesway »
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Paul Hazelwood

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #389 on: March 29, 2010, 06:40:55 PM »

God has no "weakness" nor is he simply "reacting" to man's moves. He continually modifies our course as he directs our steps often in spite of our choices. He will bring us to a realization of his wlll.

What say you?



It was his will that we make all the choices that we make because he already knew all we would do and created us despite that.   This modification was already done, the perspective that he does this on the fly is our own perspective, but God already knew every choice we would make and knew what must happen in order for us to not be lost.

Something being Gods will does not mean that he loves what we do that he prepared the way for.  The passage is from a humans perspective of the truth.   God wasn't surprised, He knew all along what he would have to destroy and since that was already known that was what had to happen.

The words you bring up in that passage has nothing to do with God making a mistake and correcting it, it has to do with what he knew he had to do despite the fact that it greived him to have to do it.




Why is it that men seem always to equate a mind change with error or mistake? God did not make a mistake, nor did he err, he changed his mind.
They are not equated.


Doesn't matter if you object to what I equated it too, I explained more detail  than that one point.



mikeeb

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #390 on: March 29, 2010, 09:35:53 PM »
Theo,

And it is still God's choice to have mercy on us all. For who has resisted his will?

Theo Book

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #391 on: March 29, 2010, 09:42:06 PM »
Excellent post - except for one little item.

(eaglesway)
Quote
He needs counseling.... from you maybe?

I am struggling here to learn something imjportant, without being turned by every wind of doctrine. So I WILL NOT hasten to my own hurt.

Be kind.

Offline jabcat

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #392 on: March 29, 2010, 09:50:14 PM »

Be kind.

EVERYONE, not just John - yes, me included (John usually is a pretty kind fella  :laughing7:).  God's worked me over time after time for letting my flesh take over and be hurtful to others and make a fool of myself.  I still do it and I'm still learning, but let's keep working on it  :thumbsup:.  I believe the message is heard more clearly that way.   :HeartThrob:

Offline willieH

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #393 on: March 29, 2010, 10:27:48 PM »
willieH: Hi TB...  :cloud9:

(WH)
Quote
YOU observe and CLAIM, ...that MAN was created PERFECT and then did IMPERFECT things... Which is NOT what occured.

I on the other hand observe and CLAIM, ...that MAN was created IMPERFECT and then did IMPERFECT things... for what man is, ...is CORRUPT... and he has YET to put on INCORRUPTION -- 1 Cor 15:53-54

YOU are confusing moral corruption with bodily corruption which is common to all flesh, man, beast. bird. fish, whatever. "Putting on incorruption" is simply a euphamism for immortality. Not morality.

:omg:  "MORALITY" is not, according to you, ...within... the "putting on of INCORRUPTION"?  Are you serious?

FIRST -- it is NOT WRITTEN (except by YOU), that ADAM was created "PERFECT"... This contention of YOURS, is ABSENT from the WORD, so it takes an ADDITION by YOU, TO the WORD ...in order for YOU to establish this UNBIBLICAL belief...

SECOND -- What's new?  nothing!  ...I disagree with you...  You struggle against what is plainly stated, in the name of (fallible) theology and/or, (fallible) religion...

1 Cor 15 is so detailed, that it cannot be missed, ...that is unless the heart beholding, just purposes to NOT SEE it...  by creating (as "in the case of ADAM" concerning PERFECTION/IMPERFECTION) THAT, which is NOT THERE...

In this answer, ...you attempt to make 2 separate categories ephasized and noted in the WORD (immortality/morality) of ONE... just as in all likelihood -- [and I could be assuming incorrectly, so please forgive me if I am] -- You observe the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL, as 2 knowledges... when in TRUTH, ...Good and Evil are TWO sides of the SAME KNOWLEDGE, rooted in the SAME TREE.

"Immortality" and "morality" are one and the same... holding hands forever... One describes and avails the other... Within ETERNITY as LIFE is found in the ETERNAL state... MORALITY is that which is practiced!

When one [secondly/SPIRITUALLY -- in DIVINE order] "puts on INCORRUPTION" [adherence to the MORAL/sinless practice of life] this is THAT which begats IMMORTALITY [eternal life] in us while in the SPIRIT --- for  [firstly/NATURALLY -- in DIVINE order] "putting on CORRUPTION" [adherence to the IMMORAL/sinful practice of life] is that which begats MORTALITY [death] in us while in the FLESH...  :dontknow:    

It is kind of like this bro, ...if we are INSIDE, ...we are NOT, OUTSIDE... and vice versa...  If we are heading EAST, we are NOT heading WEST... If we are going UP, we are NOT going DOWN... It really aint that hard, bro...

MORAL CORRUPTION (which is the MIND of the flesh/carnality), is that which is changed to, and "puts on"  the "INCORRUPTION" (which is the MIND of CHRIST/spirituality) spoken of in 1 Cor 15...

1 Cor 15:42-44 -- so also is the resurrection of the dead -- It is SOWN in CORRUPTION, it is RAISED in INCORRUPTION... it is SOWN in DISHONOR, it is RAISED in GLORY, it is SOWN in WEAKNESS it is RAISED in POWER... It is SOWN a NATURAL BODY [flesh] it is RAISED a SPIRITUAL BODY [spirit], there is a NATURAL [corrupt] BODY, and there is a SPIRITUAL [incorrupt] BODY...

Believe what you will, brother Theo... for you are where you are, because God has decided your place... as He has for me and my beliefs, accordingly...

The biggest difference between us, is that I do not have to ADD to the WORD in order to faciliate what I believe... and you DO... :sigh:

...willieH  :HeartThrob:
« Last Edit: March 29, 2010, 11:23:09 PM by willieH »

Offline eaglesway

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #394 on: March 29, 2010, 11:18:58 PM »
My apology is sincerely extended, I was attempting more to be ironic, more than hurtful, but nevertheless, I do apologize, peace, John
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Offline jabcat

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #395 on: March 30, 2010, 12:49:37 AM »
Told 'ya John wore a white hat    :wink3:

Theo Book

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #396 on: March 30, 2010, 01:07:45 AM »
My apology is sincerely extended, I was attempting more to be ironic, more than hurtful, but nevertheless, I do apologize, peace, John

I am discovering something about myself. I am heartily interested in what you guys have to say, but I am very defensive of what I already think I know. I have made several giant steps recently, and have to slow down in order to retain perspective. You cannot teach a man to parachute by pushing him out of the plane and THEN telling him how to pack his chute.

Patience. I am not only inundated with something new, it is not the same as the issues Gary and I debated so long ago. Most of it is new. It requires time to assimilate into my belief system basically BECAUSE so much of it requires a change in perspective. Remember, I have focussed on trinity doctrine for over fifty years, and this requires a tremendous mental exercise on my part. Some aspects of this need to blend with some aspects of  One thing I know tht is common to whatever truth I believe, and that is it must be God's word, and not man's, mine included.

Patience.what I consider basic truths, while other aspects will replace what I thought I knew.

Theo Book

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #397 on: March 30, 2010, 01:08:51 AM »
My apology is sincerely extended, I was attempting more to be ironic, more than hurtful, but nevertheless, I do apologize, peace, John

Accepted. I also apologize for bringing it to your attention in a public manner. I forget, there is a private message ability here.

Offline gregoryfl

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #398 on: March 30, 2010, 02:10:08 AM »
I have been keeping an eye on this thread, and am enjoying the ebb and flow of what I see so far. I wanted to chime in concerning the concept of repenting, but to do it from a Hebraic perspective that I think might shed some light on it.

The first instance of the word is thought of to be found in Genesis 6:6:

Gen 6:6  And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

And the common idea behind the word is that it has to do with a change of mind, or intent. I would have to disagree with that thinking, based on the original concrete Hebraic meaning of the word Nacham.

The first actual use of the root word Cham is found in Gen 5:29:

Gen 5:29  And he called his name Noah, saying, This same shall comfort us concerning our work and toil of our hands, because of the ground which the LORD hath cursed.

Believe it or not, the same word means to comfort, as well as to repent, or regret. It is also the word that makes up the name Noah, literally, Nach. How can it mean two seeming opposite things? As I have studied this for my translation of the Tanach, I came up with what I have found to be the concrete meaning that describes both words:

It is the word "Sigh."

More to come...

Theo Book

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Re: 25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS
« Reply #399 on: March 30, 2010, 02:15:16 AM »
I have been keeping an eye on this thread, and am enjoying the ebb and flow of what I see so far. I wanted to chime in concerning the concept of repenting, but to do it from a Hebraic perspective that I think might shed some light on it.

The first instance of the word is thought of to be found in Genesis 6:6:

Gen 6:6  And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

And the common idea behind the word is that it has to do with a change of mind, or intent. I would have to disagree with that thinking, based on the original concrete Hebraic meaning of the word Nacham.

The first actual use of the root word Cham is found in Gen 5:29:

Gen 5:29  And he called his name Noah, saying, This same shall comfort us concerning our work and toil of our hands, because of the ground which the LORD hath cursed.

Believe it or not, the same word means to comfort, as well as to repent, or regret. It is also the word that makes up the name Noah, literally, Nach. How can it mean two seeming opposite things? As I have studied this for my translation of the Tanach, I came up with what I have found to be the concrete meaning that describes both words:

It is the word "Sigh."

More to come...


Well, I can certainly picture the Holy Spirit "sighing" as he reads this thread.

I think your rendition may well be right on track, but for another reason. When Jesus said God will send another comfortor, remember how Noah was "comforted?" God sent a dove. Remember how the Holy Spirit was depicted at Jesus' baptism? A dove. God is going to send another dove, i.e., the Holy Spirit, which he gives to those that love him.

What say you?
« Last Edit: March 30, 2010, 02:33:22 AM by Theo Book »