25 QUESTIONS FOR UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEVERS

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Theo... 

6 "AS the CLAY is in the potter's hand [which noted being MARRED in the hand of said potter]... so ARE YE --- IN MINE HAND, ...O house of ISRAEL..."

YHVH is noting an example of CLAY to the hearer... which notes that ALL of its shaping, good or bad, is done by the exampled potter, ...and in the VERY SAME WAY ["AS"] ...ALL of said SHAPING and RESHAPING of ISRAEL [God's people] is done BY the hand of the POTTER... to include the "MARRING" and the "REMAKING" of the "marred clay".

I personally do not see how you cannot see this brother Theo... 

OH! I see what you mean. God, just as the human potter, makes marred (imperfect) pots out of the clay. Ao you agree, God's creation is imperfect. And God therefore is an imperfect creator.

On the contrary Theo... I believe GOD ...AND... His Creation are PERFECT concerning the REVEALING of the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL... which is the INTENTION of it.

His KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL are PERFECT... and BOTH shall be COMPLETELY revealed, FIRST the EVIL (temporally)... then the GOOD (eternally)

EVIL must be REVEALED in its most DASTARDLY completeness, in order to be KNOWN completely...

COMPLETE is the meaning of PERFECTION... for that which is COMPLETE, is no longer in need of ALTERATION or ADDITION...

This is WHY the Almighty does NOT intervene in the acts of Evil as performed by man, for it is HIS INTENTION that they be KNOWN for what they ARE...

Why didn't you say so before? So, if I understand your position,you are saying we are imperfect because our creator is imperfect.

NO, ...and I believe that you do NOT understand my position... for,

YOU observe and CLAIM, ...that MAN was created PERFECT and then did IMPERFECT things... Which is NOT what occured.

I on the other hand observe and CLAIM, ...that MAN was created IMPERFECT and then did IMPERFECT things... for what man is, ...is CORRUPT... and he has YET to put on INCORRUPTION -- 1 Cor 15:53-54

What occured was GOD's DECLARATION of ALL THINGS, ...then MAN has walked (as individuals) the pathway DECLARED by God ...of him within his CORRUPTIBLE IMPERFECTION...  PERFECTLY!

For it is GOD, Scripture DECLARES...that WORKS ALL THINGS according to HIS OWN WILL -- Eph 1:11 -- and MAN's steps are DIRECTED by GOD, for the PURPOSE of REVEALING the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL...

Makes perfect sense. Just as that human potter makes marred clay pots. "Just As." Simple. How did I miss that before. Thank you for clearing that up.

You (sarcastically) "miss it" because GOD has yet to open your eyes TO IT...

YES He does make "MARRED CLAY VESSELS", as Scripture notes:

Rom 9:21 -- Hath not the POTTER ...POWER ...OVER the CLAY, of the SAME LUMP to make ONE VESSEL unto HONOR [spiritual SAVED & INCORRUPTIBLE son], and another unto DISHONOR [fleshly LOST & SINFUL man]

Which PERFECTLY describes each of us...

We are ALL (FIRST in Divine ORDER -- 1 Cor 15:46) -- FLESHLY/unbelieving sinners -- Rom 3:23 -- and then,

We are ALL (SECOND in Divine ORDER) -- SPIRITUAL/believing incorruptible SONS, ...saved by GOD from that SIN -- 1 Tim 2:3-6 



...willieH  

[WhiteWings]

You cannot reconcile the logic that God created man perfect and then that perfection made a flawed choice. How does perfection make a flawed choice?

That's logic even a beginner can see. And I don't mean that in the slightest way negative to you Paul.
Sometimes when people make progress in the studying they start to complicate things so much they undermine their most basic beliefs.

Saying God has unlimited knowledge, intelligence, capabilities, skills, etc automatically forces many interpretations in certain direction.
Just a few I think of right now:

1]
If Father only creates perfect things it basicly mean everything He creates/created is a clone of Himself.
Only Father (+Son +HS) is perfect. Pefect knowledge, intelligence, capabilities, skills, etc
I will speak only for myself but I don't fit in that defenition. And that's an understatement...

2]
If Gods creations show unexpected behaviour for whatever reason then God's knowledge of the future was not perfect.

3]
If the perfect Potter makes a marred pot then it can only mean the pot was intended marred.
If not the perfect Potter is not perfect because not all of His creatings are as intended.
And according to ET theology Father is worse than a beginning potter. 95% ends up in hell. Meaning 95% of the pots of the not so perfect Potter are marred.
It's very clear there are many marred pots on this world.
That can only mean 2 things: God is a lousy potter or all is as intended

4]
God created a perfect world. Everything He creates is perfect. It was/is perfectly according to plan. It's not perfect in the sense as being as perfect as God Himself.
First of the serpent would never have be able to sucessfully tempted Adam and Eve. The would have resisted like Jesus. Secondly how can a highly sinfull serpent that was sinner from the beginning even be part of  a perfect world?

[WhiteWings]

An age - period of time with a beginning and an end.  From some of his studies on aion and old Jewish writings, White Wings suggests that could be from a day to 1 year;

That's to much glory James
Rabbis mention those numbers. I don't know how they reached that conclusion. Personally I think it's connected to the harvests.

Question: Dear Rabbi Maroof,
First of all, I would like to thank you for providing
this space to address Jewish matters. My
question is related to the afterlife, a subject in which
Judaism contains a variety of opinions. From my
understanding (please let me know if I am misunderstanding
any concept), according to some
biblical references, more specifically, Job and
Ecclesiastes, there's a place called "Sheol", an
underground abyss where all souls -whether good
or evil, go. There's also the concept of Gan Eden
(heaven) and Gehinnom (hell), but ultimately all
souls go to heaven after they purge their sins and
wrongdoings, except the extremely wicked and
evil, whose soul will be either ceased from
existence or be eternally under suffering -this is
another topic that has different interpretations. So,
are Sheol and Gehinnon equivalent? Also, after the
resurrection of the souls in the World to Come (in a
physical form), will there be death again?
Thank you,
Carolina Castellanos

Response: Dear Carolina, These are weighty
and complex questions. Let me begin by emphasizing
that the concept of a soul entering a "place",
whether under or above ground, is not a part of
Jewish theology. The soul is not a physical object
that can travel in space or be situated in a specific
location. Whenever a reference is made to a soul
'going' somewhere, it is intended in a metaphoric,
not a literal, sense.
The Biblical term "Sheol" simply refers to the
grave, the final resting place of the physical body.
Maimonides teaches that the Afterlife is a
metaphysical state of blissful existence that ensues
after the separation of the soul from the body. This
state can only be achieved by an individual who
has perfected his or her soul through the acquisition
of knowledge and positive character traits and the
performance of good deeds. Because the soul has
developed a spiritual, transcendent aspect, it is able
to survive physical death and partake of the greatest
reward imaginable - namely, an unadulterated and
fully satisfying perception of Hashem's wisdom.
It is important to remember that, since we exist in
a physical body during this lifetime and all of our
knowledge is based upon our experiences of the
material world, we cannot possibly imagine what it
would be like to exist metaphysically. This is the
reason why our Sages are compelled to employ
metaphor and analogy when speaking about these
profound matters. Unfortunately, because we are
generally much more comfortable with concrete
imagery than abstract ideas, many people latch
onto the metaphoric depictions of the rabbis as if
they are literal facts. Thus, they develop sensual
concepts of the World to Come that are of necessity
inaccurate. We must accept the reality that the true
nature of the Afterlife is not something that we
have the ability to comprehend during our sojourn
on this Earth.
Wicked people whose entire existence in this
world revolves around material gain and bodily
pleasure have not actualized the metaphysical
dimension of their souls. As a result, their souls
perish with their bodies at the conclusion of their
physical lives. They suffer the ultimate punishment
- the loss of the opportunity to experience the
pleasure of true knowledge and understanding.
In the Messianic era, the righteous will be revived
from the dead and will participate in the establishment
of a utopian society that will be fully aligned
with God's wisdom. Their resurrection will also
afford these great men and women the benefit of
living in an enlightened world community -
something they did not have the opportunity to do
before their deaths. In the end, though, the laws of
nature will continue to reign, and the righteous -
like all other mortals - will eventually pass away
once again, allowing their souls to return to a
blessed state of metaphysical existence for eternity.
I would like to add two important points. The first
point is that our service of Hashem in this world is
inherently rewarding and fulfilling. Any additional
reward is really superfluous to the wise person who
enjoys truth and justice for their own sake.
Similarly, living a materialistic, unenlightened life
is its own punishment. Such a lifestyle frustrates
human beings, denying them the actualization of
their intellectual and spiritual potential while
offering them an endless array of unsatisfying
substitutes that fail to address their uniquely human
needs.
Those who believe that the ultimate reward for
study and righteousness is endless physical
pleasure necessarily maintain that the pleasures of
the body are the ultimate good for human beings,
and that living wisely is a means to the end of
material self-indulgence. Similarly, the belief in
eternal physical torment for the wicked stems from
the assumption that bodily suffering is worse than
the pain of living without wisdom. Both of these
suppositions are contrary to the core teachings of
Judaism. The devoted Jew does not need the
promise of extrinsic reward nor the threat of extrinsic
punishment to entice him or her to live by the
dictates of the Torah. Pleasures and pains of the
body are simply incomparable to the contentment
the soul derives from its pursuit of knowledge and
virtue. By way of analogy, imagine that a wealthy
individual offered you one million dollars cash,
with no strings attached. Would you ask "well,
what's in it for me? What's my reward for accepting
the money?" Any additional reward would pale
by comparison to the receipt of the funds
themselves. In the same way, wisdom is its own
reward, and anyone who asks "what's in it for me"
has not yet experienced its beauty - a beauty so rich
and overflowing that it causes all temporal enjoyments
to seem base and worthless by comparison.
The second point I'd like to emphasize is that the
common notion of "Divine Punishment" is derived
from the theologies of other popular religions, and
not from the teachings of the Torah. In these
religions, God is portrayed as an angry humanlike
being who cannot tolerate the disregard with which
human beings treat Him and His laws. His thirst for
vengeance is so all-consuming that the only way
He can quell his rage is by condemning sinners to
everlasting torment in Hell. This idea is, of course,
based upon the assumption that God takes pleasure
in our morality and religiosity and that He becomes
frustrated and aggressive when we fail to placate
Him with our worship. Advocates of this notion
seem to maintain that God finds comfort in
torturing violators of His commandments for all
eternity.
By contrast, the Jewish view is that righteousness
and wickedness - as well as reward and
punishment - are exclusively for human benefit.
God does not become 'angry' when we sin, nor
does our goodness provide Him any satisfaction.
When we make the right choices, then God may
assist us in furthering our development so that we
more fully actualize the potential for genuine
happiness that He implanted within us - not
because He needs us to continue, but because it is
His will to provide the best for His creatures.
At the same time, when we choose to act immorally,
we do a disservice to ourselves alone. God, in
His infinite mercy, may punish us to correct us and
steer us back onto the proper path, but not because
He takes some sinister, vengeful pleasure in our
suffering. We can see this from the fact that God
only intervenes to punish individuals whom He
knows are sufficiently close to Him to respond
appropriately to censure, as King Solomon wrote,
"The ones God loves, He rebukes." If a person is
so far from God that there is no hope that he will
repent as a result of Divinely imposed punishments,
then God will not implement them.
Hashem does not mete out consequences to make
us suffer for our sins; His purpose in chastising
human beings is to educate and uplift those of us
who are at least potentially receptive to His
message.
From this standpoint, it is clear why subjecting
human souls to everlasting torment in the Hereafter
would be meaningless. Once our lives are over,
all hope of repentance is lost - so what use would
punishment serve after death? Only a religion that
views God in human terms - as a sadistic fatherfigure
who is insatiably angry with his children
and needs to 'vent' - could possibly embrace such
a concept.
I should mention that there are some Rabbis,
such as Nachmanides, who subscribe to the
concept of 'Gehinnom'. 'Gehinnom' is understood
here as a process of purification of the soul -
metaphorically denoted by a 'place' to which it
goes - that occurs before that soul enters its final
state of spiritual existence. We all have ties to the
material world that serve as obstacles to our
spiritual growth, interfering and even tampering
with the proper development of our souls. The idea
of Gehinnom is that a profound experience of
self-awareness and intellectual clarity after death -
revealing, as it would, that any attachment to the
realm of the physical is utterly meaningless - may
enable a person to become freed from some of
these limitations and thus to enjoy a more
complete and gratifying metaphysical existence in
the Next World.
For a more detailed and in-depth discussion of
these ideas, I would encourage you to read
Maimonides' "Introduction to Helek", which can
be purchased in English translation from Moznaim
Publishers (It appears as an appendix in the
volume of the Rambam series entitled "Pirkei
Avot").
You may write Rabbi Maroof at his blog:
http://askrabbimaroof.blogspot.com

continued below

[WhiteWings]

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/516993/jewish/Im-scared-of-going-to-hell.htm

Now to address your question about hell:

You're probably expecting me to depict a haunting scene of ghosts and goblins. But the Jewish concept of "heaven" and "hell" cannot be more different than the description found in medieval Christian texts or cartoons.

Yes, Judaism believes in punishment and reward in the afterlife. But in Judaism:

Hell is temporary -- not permanent.

Hell is a therapy -- not an imprisonment.

Hell is a consequence -- not a punishment.

Hell is a washing machine -- not a furnace.

Sounds interesting? Click here to read all about this topic.

Let me know if this helps. I await your reply.

Yours truly,

Rabbi Yisroel Cotlar

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/282508/jewish/What-Happens-After-We-Die.htm

So even the most wicked of souls, say our sages, experiences, at most, twelve months of gehinom, followed by an eternity of heaven.

December 2009
http://www.christianpost.com/blogs/hebrew/2009/12/hell-in-judaism-gehenna-part-1-2-15/index.html
In the Kabbalah, Gehenna is called a "waiting room" for all souls and not just the souls of the sinners.
According to rabbinic literature, people don't stay in Gehenna forever. Gehena is a place or state where the wicked are temporarily punished after death.
Rabbi Akiva claims that the longest that one can be there is 12 months.

Judaism
Daniel 12:2 proclaims "And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt." Judaism does not have a specific doctrine about the afterlife, but it does have a mystical/Orthodox tradition of describing Gehenna. Gehenna is not Hell, but rather a sort of Purgatory where one is judged based on his or her life's deeds, or rather, where one becomes fully aware of one's own shortcomings and negative actions during one's life. The Kabbalah describes it as a "waiting room" (commonly translated as an "entry way") for all souls (not just the wicked). The overwhelming majority of rabbinic thought maintains that people are not in Gehenna forever; the longest that one can be there is said to be 11 months, however there has been the occasional noted exception. Some consider it a spiritual forge where the soul is purified for its eventual ascent to Olam Habah (heb. עולם הבא; lit. "The world to come", often viewed as analogous to Heaven). This is also mentioned in the Kabbalah, where the soul is described as breaking, like the flame of a candle lighting another: the part of the soul that ascends being pure and the "unfinished" piece being reborn.

According to Jewish teachings, hell is not entirely physical; rather, it can be compared to a very intense feeling of shame. People are ashamed of their misdeeds and this constitutes suffering which makes up for the bad deeds. When one has so deviated from the will of God, one is said to be in gehinom. This is not meant to refer to some point in the future, but to the very present moment. The gates of teshuva (return) are said to be always open, and so one can align his will with that of God at any moment. Being out of alignment with God's will is itself a punishment according to the Torah. In addition, Subbotniks and Messianic Judaism believe in Gehenna, but Samaritans probably believe in a separation of the wicked in a shadowy existence, Sheol, and the righteous in heaven.

[Theo Book]

I have long understood repentence and confession to be two different things. Is this error?

Perhaps they are.   How will you repent of your sins after your death Theo?

No idea. That is not one of my understandings.

[Theo Book]

OH! I see what you mean. God, just as the human potter, makes marred (imperfect) pots out of the clay. Ao you agree, God's creation is imperfect. And God therefore is an imperfect creator. Why didn't you say so before? So, if I understand your position,you are saying we are imperfect because our creator is imperfect. Makes perfect sense. Just as that human potter makes marred clay pots. "Just As." Simple. How did I miss that before. Thank you for clearing that up.

That was sarcasm.

God is not only perfect, but is perfectly unable to perform imperfection. I think that pretty well says it all.

You have to realize that this argument has a slippery slope. No matter how it is approached God can be made to look imperfect.   EVEN if you decide that mans "FW" is the difference between Gods perfection and imperfection it is still a losing argument.

I consider it the crowning part of creation. God makes us in his image BY gift of free will. (Ooopsy!!! - did I say that?)

You cannot reconcile the logic that God created man perfect and then that perfection made a flawed choice. How does perfection make a flawed choice?

The same way "... it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them." [Gen 6:6-7]

I do not understand how folks fail to see God made changes in his plans constantly, because of the exercise of man's will. Look up "repent, repenteth, repented, in a wordsearch program.

Just doesn't work no matter how you hope it does.   This would imply indeed that God being perfection may one day make a flawed choice.  

Ro 8:20 For to *vanity was the creation subjected, not voluntarily, but because of Him *Who subjects it, onin expectation

While I often disagree over some things with some of my friends here, I know that we are not completely free in the sense that the word often implies because scripture declares that we are not.

[Paul Hazelwood]

God is not only perfect, but is perfectly unable to perform imperfection. I think that pretty well says it all.

Don't really disagree with that.

I do not understand how folks fail to see God made changes in his plans constantly, because of the exercise of man's will. Look up "repent, repenteth, repented, in a wordsearch program.

God never changes, that doesn't mean he hasn't accounted for all that we do.

It is if perfection makes a flawed choice,  if not,  then if we were created perfect, then our choices were known and perfect for what God intended.


That is how no person can remain lost forever,  all our choices free or not were known and accounted for by God in perfection.

[Theo Book]

(WH)

Hi Theo...   This is probably the manner of discussion you used with Gary Amirault 11 years ago, in your FIRM disagreements with him about UR...

You failed to learn TRUTH offered to you by GOD through Gary Amirault "THEN", ...and you continue the SAME pattern and purpose, in the "NOW".  

(TB) Really? Based upon what?

(WH) Primarily, your beliefs are ...UNREASONABLE and unaligned with REASON... to name a few:

So you assume Gary and I had this same conversation years ago with the same results? Nope. I refuted Whittemore's 100 reasons to believe USal and was accused of editing Whittemore's statement of doctrine. I didn't, of course, as it is still posted on this site, and number four still says Jesus is the moral Ruler of the earth, so I was not responsible for that statement. I only refuted it. Gary called me a liar and I responded with equal immaturity. I believed we had both grown a bit since then and attempted to re-establish a connection, for the gospel's sake.


(WH)

(1) you have noted that Adam & Eve were created PERFECT, yet manifested IMPERFECTION...

Rather than make accusations, I will try to approach the issues you raise with examples from scripture. I believe there is a chance you may not properly assess the issue of "perfection."

Paul, for example, quoted Christ as saying... " for my strength is made perfect in weakness."[II Cor 12:9]
And the Hebrew letter says, concerning Christ... And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;[Heb 5:9] The living Jesus was made perfect by dying. Antithesis perfects, if accomplished in one direction, but not in the other. Strength is perfected in weakness, life perfected in death; but weakness is not perfected in strength, nor is death perfected in life. At least, I see no such teaching in scripture.

(WH)

(2) you have noted that GOD makes things that "dont turn out" as intended... reducing His PERFECTION as a Creator...

GOD noted the same thing. I only quoted God. If you disagree, your argument is with him. "...it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them." [Gen 6:6-7]

God can be grieved. Is that considered imperfection? God repents of some decisions he made. Is that imperfection? Are you taking the position that to change one's mind is imperfection in action?

When God said "For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed," [Mal 3:6] He was reasoning with disobedient Israel, who accused God of changing the covenant. God is reminding them that it was not HE that changes, but they through diosobedience; God is consistent to his covenant.

Look at the dialogue that led up to the statement that is so often misapplied in 3:6 -
Mal 2:8 But ye are departed out of the way; ye have caused many to stumble at the law; ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, saith the LORD of hosts. 9 Therefore have I also made you contemptible and base before all the people, according as ye have not kept my ways, but have been partial in the law. 10 Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers? 11 Judah hath dealt treacherously, and an abomination is committed in Israel and in Jerusalem; for Judah hath profaned the holiness of the LORD which he loved, and hath married the daughter of a strange god. 12 The LORD will cut off the man that doeth this, the master and the scholar, out of the tabernacles of Jacob, and him that offereth an offering unto the LORD of hosts. 13 And this have ye done again, covering the altar of the LORD with tears, with weeping, and with crying out, insomuch that he regardeth not the offering any more, or receiveth it with good will at your hand.

 14 Yet ye say, Wherefore? Because the LORD hath been witness between thee and the wife of thy youth, against whom thou hast dealt treacherously: yet is she thy companion, and the wife of thy covenant.
 15 And did not he make one? Yet had he the residue of the spirit. And wherefore one? That he might seek a godly seed. Therefore take heed to your spirit, and let none deal treacherously against the wife of his youth.
 16 For the LORD, the God of Israel, saith that he hateth putting away: for one covereth violence with his garment, saith the LORD of hosts: therefore take heed to your spirit, that ye deal not treacherously.
 17 Ye have wearied the LORD with your words. Yet ye say, Wherein have we wearied him? When ye say, Every one that doeth evil is good in the sight of the LORD, and he delighteth in them; or, Where is the God of judgment?

Look at the context in which God says "I change not" -
 Mal 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts. 2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap: 3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness. 4 Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years. 5 And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts. 6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed. 7 Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the LORD of hosts. But ye said, Wherein shall we return? 8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings. 9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation...." Israel tried to argue while full of self-righteous indignation. God would not allow them to get away with it.
 
(WH)

(3) you have noted that IMPERFECTION is that which dicates to PERFECTION -- as GOD must "react" to us, instead of the opposite...

For God to "NOT REACT" would make him NOT GOD. To react is not a sign of weakness, it is an expression of patience. When one does not act until another acts, is called fairness. Otherwise, it is simply an exercise of "I know what they will do and I will go first and stop them." If THAT is right, God would never have created man in the first place.

(WH)

(4) you propose that GOD who is PERFECT is able to "REPENT" for things He has DONE... which denotes Him to CHANGE His mind... which proposes that His mind is as unstable as ours.

I change my mind. Paranoid Skitzophrenics change their mind. Does that make me unstable as the schizophrenic? God changes his mind. That in NO WAY makes his mmind unstable, rather, it shows that we who change our minds are in the image of God who changes his mind when circumstances cause changes in the pattern originally intended.

I think perhaps there is a problem in understanding what it is to say "God's will will be done." There seems to be a concerted belief that God's will cannot be resisted. Tell me, is God known as the Holy Spirit (Holy Ghost)?

"And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: 29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. 30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. 31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. 32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call." [Joel 2:28-32]

 16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
 19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
 21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved." [Acts 2:16-21]

There is no place in the bible where another Holy Spirit is introduced as a separate person from the Father. What do you suppose is the meaning of these words? "Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye." [Acts 7:51] You ask continually "can a man resist God?" When I respond
"yes" I am corrected. I think you need to look again at all the times men resisted God's good will.

(WH)

(5) in the proposal that Scripture notes that He can "REPENT"... Scripture which says that HE does NOT CHANGE -- Mal 3:6 -- is therefore compromised...

See above response using Malachai chapters 2 and 3.

(WH)

(6) your proposal that GOD brings forth things which do NOT function as INTENDED, arises the thought that within the course of the ETERNAL setting, ...that which is said to be PASSED AWAY, could potentially reappear, due to GOD's shortcomings as a "designer"... Also compromising the Scriptures...

The imagination of men as to what could possibly go wrong, has no influence upon God's creation as to what actually DOES go wrong, all in accord with God's design in giving free will to men. Free will does not mean man can overpower God's will. It means God has established parameters within which man pleases God, and outside of which man displeases God. It is GOD, not priests, who established those parameters. God established other parameters that have nothing to do with moral decisions, but rather establish God as in charge of what man can accomplish; for example, man's space program with a goal to wander the stars, God has established parameters that will limit how far man can go in his heavens. "The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD'S: but the earth hath he given to the children of men." [Psalm 115:16] Man thinks he can send a Hubble telescope into heaven to gaze on the face of God, but God says otherwise.

But when it comes to moral issues, God made laws and set them in motion, then stood back and watched to see if men would obey or not. "And thou shalt remember all the way which the LORD thy God led thee these forty years in the wilderness, to humble thee, and to prove thee, to know what was in thine heart, whether thou wouldest keep his commandments, or no." [Deut 8:2]


(WH) Need more? [/quote]

Well, THOSE certainly seemed inadequate.

[Theo Book]

I do think the eventual salvaton of all is indicated in scripture, but I do not see where age-lasting torment is eliminated from scripture.

Well, let me put it this way as a point where all sides can find a common thread of agreement.

Some believe that this age lasting torment is now on earth.   I do not necessarily agree 100%, however I have been in great torment in certain parts of my life so it is something I consider more than I might let on for personal reasons.  However, someone who believes that is not "eliminating" age-lasting torment it is merely "WHEN" it occurs that would be in disagreement.


So if you actually agree in the consideration of Salvation for all and Judgment for all, then you agree with people around here more than it may appear.

I have been introduced to several bible teachings I had not previously considered because my focus has always been elsewhere. I still do not think we should lead people to believe there is no punishment after death, as it may have material consequences long after it is too late to alter consequences by repenting.

And I certainly do NOT agree with the teachings of Thayer, nor Whittemore's 100 reasons to believe USAL. THAT doesn't make USAL wrong, it makes those authors reasons wrong, if indeed I am correct.

[Theo Book]

(wH)

Hi Theo...  

6 "AS the CLAY is in the potter's hand [which noted being MARRED in the hand of said potter]... so ARE YE --- IN MINE HAND, ...O house of ISRAEL..."

YHVH is noting an example of CLAY to the hearer... which notes that ALL of its shaping, good or bad, is done by the exampled potter, ...and in the VERY SAME WAY ["AS"] ...ALL of said SHAPING and RESHAPING of ISRAEL [God's people] is done BY the hand of the POTTER... to include the "MARRING" and the "REMAKING" of the "marred clay".

I personally do not see how you cannot see this brother Theo...  

Well, when an artist begins his canvass, he begins with a certain object in mind as to what it is he wants to express, but sometimes, he has to overpaint what has gone before because it lacks a certain depth of his intent.

Writers change what they have written; pencils have erasers; Carpenters redo; plumbers correct; all manner of efforts are carried out in the hands of men according to intent, but are corrected in the process of finalization. We are not yet what our final "me" will be. It is in the proccess of becoming. We are in the growth area of development.

God directs, manages, corrects, and erases. Many are the civilisations God has destroyed for disobedience; ie,. Saul and the Amelekites, seven nations in Caanan; ancient Mu; Atlantas; etc.

(TB)

OH! I see what you mean. God, just as the human potter, makes marred (imperfect) pots out of the clay. So you agree, God's creation is imperfect. And God therefore is an imperfect creator.

(WH) On the contrary Theo... I believe GOD ...AND... His Creation are PERFECT concerning the REVEALING of the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL... which is the INTENTION of it.

His KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL are PERFECT... and BOTH shall be COMPLETELY revealed, FIRST the EVIL (temporally)... then the GOOD (eternally)

EVIL must be REVEALED in its most DASTARDLY completeness, in order to be KNOWN completely...

COMPLETE is the meaning of PERFECTION... for that which is COMPLETE, is no longer in need of ALTERATION or ADDITION...

This is WHY the Almighty does NOT intervene in the acts of Evil as performed by man, for it is HIS INTENTION that they be KNOWN for what they ARE...

That's strange. God thinks he has intervened in the acts of evil as performed by man, many times. Look at Nineveh; Egypt; Babylon's tower; Judas's end; all men everywhere are sublimated to God's judgment.

(TB)

Why didn't you say so before? So, if I understand your position,you are saying we are imperfect because our creator is imperfect.

(WH) NO, ...and I believe that you do NOT understand my position... [/quote

Apology. THAT was intended to serve as sarcasm, which really has no place in the discussions. Again, Apology.

(WH)

for, YOU observe and CLAIM, ...that MAN was created PERFECT and then did IMPERFECT things... Which is NOT what occured.

I on the other hand observe and CLAIM, ...that MAN was created IMPERFECT and then did IMPERFECT things... for what man is, ...is CORRUPT... and he has YET to put on INCORRUPTION -- 1 Cor 15:53-54

You are mixing flesh corruption with moral issues. Flesh, upon death, corrupts. That is not a moral issue.

(WH)

What occured was GOD's DECLARATION of ALL THINGS, ...then MAN has walked (as individuals) the pathway DECLARED by God ...of him within his CORRUPTIBLE IMPERFECTION...  PERFECTLY!

Sorry, I have no idea what you just said.

(WH)

For it is GOD, Scripture DECLARES...that WORKS ALL THINGS according to HIS OWN WILL -- Eph 1:11 -- and MAN's steps are DIRECTED by GOD, for the PURPOSE of REVEALING the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL...

So killing men for displeasing the Lord is all part of the learning proccess?
Gen 38:10 And the thing which he did displeased the LORD: wherefore he slew him also.


(WH)

YES He does make "MARRED CLAY VESSELS", as Scripture notes:

Rom 9:21 -- Hath not the POTTER ...POWER ...OVER the CLAY, of the SAME LUMP to make ONE VESSEL unto HONOR [spiritual SAVED & INCORRUPTIBLE son], and another unto DISHONOR [fleshly LOST & SINFUL man]

Which PERFECTLY describes each of us...

We are ALL (FIRST in Divine ORDER -- 1 Cor 15:46) -- FLESHLY/unbelieving sinners -- Rom 3:23 -- and then,

We are ALL (SECOND in Divine ORDER) -- SPIRITUAL/believing incorruptible SONS, ...saved by GOD from that SIN -- 1 Tim 2:3-6  

You can't have it both ways.

[Theo Book]

You cannot reconcile the logic that God created man perfect and then that perfection made a flawed choice. How does perfection make a flawed choice?

That's logic even a beginner can see. And I don't mean that in the slightest way negative to you Paul.
Sometimes when people make progress in the studying they start to complicate things so much they undermine their most basic beliefs.

Saying God has unlimited knowledge, intelligence, capabilities, skills, etc automatically forces many interpretations in certain direction.
Just a few I think of right now:

1]
If Father only creates perfect things it basicly mean everything He creates/created is a clone of Himself.
Only Father (+Son +HS) is perfect. Pefect knowledge, intelligence, capabilities, skills, etc
I will speak only for myself but I don't fit in that defenition. And that's an understatement...

2]
If Gods creations show unexpected behaviour for whatever reason then God's knowledge of the future was not perfect.

3]
If the perfect Potter makes a marred pot then it can only mean the pot was intended marred.
If not the perfect Potter is not perfect because not all of His creatings are as intended.
And according to ET theology Father is worse than a beginning potter. 95% ends up in hell. Meaning 95% of the pots of the not so perfect Potter are marred.

QUESTION: Whence the 95%?

Rev 7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, 3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
 4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand  Israel.

 9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
 10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
 11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
 12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
 13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
 15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
 16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
 17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

What % do you think "a great multitude, which no man could number" represents?

[Theo Book]

God is not only perfect, but is perfectly unable to perform imperfection. I think that pretty well says it all.

Don't really disagree with that.

I do not understand how folks fail to see God made changes in his plans constantly, because of the exercise of man's will. Look up "repent, repenteth, repented, in a wordsearch program.

God never changes, that doesn't mean he hasn't accounted for all that we do.

Then define "repent" for me.

"And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them." [Gen 6:6-7]

God created, God considered, God repented creating, God destroyed. No change?

[Paul Hazelwood]

God is not only perfect, but is perfectly unable to perform imperfection. I think that pretty well says it all.

Don't really disagree with that.

I do not understand how folks fail to see God made changes in his plans constantly, because of the exercise of man's will. Look up "repent, repenteth, repented, in a wordsearch program.

God never changes, that doesn't mean he hasn't accounted for all that we do.

Then define "repent" for me.

"And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them." [Gen 6:6-7]

God created, God considered, God repented creating, God destroyed. No change?

Better yet, lets go deeper than one english word that is translated from ancient hebrew and consider scripture and God as a whole.


H5162  nacham  naw-kham'

a primitive root;

properly, to sigh, i.e. breathe strongly; by implication, to be sorry, i.e. (in a
favorable sense) to pity, console or (reflexively) rue; or (unfavorably) to
avenge (oneself):--comfort (self), ease (one's self), repent(-er,-ing, self).


Seems to me based on the favorable sense of the word in context with Gods character, things were right on schedule.

God knew exactly what must happen.

[jabcat]

Theo, 5% is an oft-used estimate of the total of the world's population throughout history that have heard of Jesus Christ and believe on Him in this lifetime (95% "excluded").  So, the scriptures you quoted do indicate something else (further) has occurred, doesn't it?  

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Theo... 

This answer will require a few posts due to length... 

POST ONE:

In this answer, it is really apparent that you have not fully considered your current observation of YHVH God... and please know that you have my sympathy... 

(WH)

Hi Theo...   This is probably the manner of discussion you used with Gary Amirault 11 years ago, in your FIRM disagreements with him about UR...

You failed to learn TRUTH offered to you by GOD through Gary Amirault "THEN", ...and you continue the SAME pattern and purpose, in the "NOW".  

(TB) Really? Based upon what?

(WH) Primarily, your beliefs are ...UNREASONABLE and unaligned with REASON... to name a few:

So you assume Gary and I had this same conversation years ago with the same results? Nope. I refuted Whittemore's 100 reasons to believe USal and was accused of editing Whittemore's statement of doctrine. I didn't, of course, as it is still posted on this site, and number four still says Jesus is the moral Ruler of the earth, so I was not responsible for that statement. I only refuted it. Gary called me a liar and I responded with equal immaturity. I believed we had both grown a bit since then and attempted to re-establish a connection, for the gospel's sake.

Well... thanks for the report.  I did not ASSUME you had the SAME CONVERSATION, what I said was that Gary presented TRUTH to you... and you did not accept it at that time... Also, I said that likely your "manner of discussion" was parallel to this one. 

I appreciate your admitted humility... and I commend you for it. 

(WH)

(1) you have noted that Adam & Eve were created PERFECT, yet manifested IMPERFECTION...

Rather than make accusations, I will try to approach the issues you raise with examples from scripture. I believe there is a chance you may not properly assess the issue of "perfection."

Paul, for example, quoted Christ as saying... " for my strength is made perfect in weakness."[II Cor 12:9]

And the Hebrew letter says, concerning Christ... And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;[Heb 5:9] The living Jesus was made perfect by dying. Antithesis perfects, if accomplished in one direction, but not in the other. Strength is perfected in weakness, life perfected in death; but weakness is not perfected in strength, nor is death perfected in life. At least, I see no such teaching in scripture.

FIRST -- I didn't "accuse you" bro... You have stated that you believe that Adam & Eve were "created PERFECT"... and I disagree with that ASSUMPTION, for it is NOT WRITTEN that they were "created PERFECT"... 

SECOND -- I don't disagree that "antithesis perfects" or that "strength is perfected in weakness"...

THIRD -- Death is CORRECTED in LIFE... Death is the OPPOSITE of LIFE.  If there were NO such thing as DEATH... how would we truly KNOW we are "ALIVE"?  Or the precious VALUE of that LIFE?

(WH)

(2) you have noted that GOD makes things that "dont turn out" as intended... reducing His PERFECTION as a Creator...

GOD noted the same thing. I only quoted God. If you disagree, your argument is with him. "...it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them." [Gen 6:6-7]

The Scripture notes in Revelation -- Rev 4:6 -- that there are four BEASTS --- FULL of EYES --- is that your perception?  A creature that is nothing but EYES?  Surrounding the THRONE... EYES surrounding the throne?  Where does 1 beast end & the other begin, Theo?

The WORD of GOD, is a COMPLETELY SPIRITUAL document (from Genesis to Revelation). 

Your observation on the other hand, is a LITERAL one... which is why your contentions often arise against TRUTH...  The Pharisees used this very same approach to CHRIST as do you here... Bringing to Him, their LITERAL understandings of HIS SPIRITUAL WORDS...

Trying to use His own WORD against Him... implying that He was SINNING against it.

Can you really consider GOD to be an ALMIGHTY and ALL WISE (omniscient) being, when you picture Him REGRETTING His own WORK?  So much as saying, He "blew it" in His making of this Creation?  Then SCOLDS Himself for it?   

If GOD is truly OMNISCIENT (which I believe that He IS)... and in His WORD, it is noted that HE does NOT CHANGE -- Mal 3:6 -- Heb 13:8 -- James 1:17 --

Then the conveyance of the word "REPENTETH" in this verse (which MEANS CHANGE), cannot be as you percieve, otherwise GOD DOES CHANGE, and His WORD therefore, could not be RELIED upon as a PERMANENT entity, for the WORD brought forth ALL THINGS -- John 1:3 -- Col 1:16 -- and its promises, reports and statements are ALL become subject to REVISION by Him... You believe in a God of "do-overs"... rather than one which is FOUNDED upon such infinite WISDOM, as to be INCAPABLE of ERROR, and therefore NEVER in NEED of CHANGE... ETERNALLY.

Sorry, you are welcome brother Theo, to stand upon this sorrowful, crumbling and shifting SAND... I shall not.  I believe He is the UNMOVEABLE, UNCHANGEABLE ROCK upon which ALL can find both TEMPORAL (this life) and ETERNAL (life beyond this one) STABILITY...

If GOD indeed REGRETS His own initiated DOINGS... then what is to prevent Him from CHANGING His mind COMPLETELY about SAVING US, Theo?  After all... we have the documentations of -- the Flood, then Sodom & Gomorrah... could either of these have been in any WORSE condition and proximity to SIN than the "modern day" in which we live?  What is preventing Him from just "DIVINELY deleting" the whole thing?    Who could stop Him?  Who would EVER KNOW?

If indeed you are CORRECT, and He was REPRIMANDING Himself for CREATING both Men and Beasts... what kind of MIND, does He (according to YOUR VIEW of Him) really have?  More one which is IN NEED of COUNSELLING, for it is UNSTABLE... Yet His WORD says NO ONE COUNSELS Him! -- Rom 11:34

So WHERE (if indeed you are correct), does that leave us poor, in NEED of SAVING, sinners, Theo?  I'd say, at the mercy of a being which is Unlimited in Power while being UNSTABLE and PSYCOTIC!    Able and WILLING to CHANGE His mind about ANYTHING, at ANY MOMENT... 

You are welcome to embrace such a FEAR ridden, folly bro... not me!

God can be grieved. Is that considered imperfection?

That it grieves GOD (which is GOOD), to watch us within the clutches of the UGLY REVELATION of the KNOWLEDGE of EVIL... does not mean that this is IMPERFECTION, and I have not implied that in any of my answers to you.

Grieving is not a mark of IMPERFECTION at all and I have not suggested any such thing...

I have raised 3 children and am amidst raising 10 grandkids... and in that process, many times, I was not displaying IMPERFECTION as sorrow has come upon me in my life  endured at the hands of EVIL... when my daughter got her heart broken, ...when my dad suffered at the hand of CANCER till his death... etc.   But these are experiences that must be in the scenario GOD has created... and DECLARED. 

GOD did not prevent my daughter's heartbreak, nor did He prevent CANCER from destroying the life of my father... but SUFFERING is part of the PERFECTION process -- Heb 2:10 -- and,

It is the GLORY of GOD to remove forever, such things from us ALL...

God repents of some decisions he made. Is that imperfection? Are you taking the position that to change one's mind is imperfection in action?

FIRST -- GOD does NOT change via REPENTENCE... for REPENTENCE is due of one which has ERRED... You are welcome to behold Him in such a lowly manner, as I said, I shall NOT.

This whole thing is HARD for Him as well as for us, for HE SO LOVES US ALL -- John 3:16 -- and it is DIFFICULT for a PARENT to watch His children in harms way...

SECOND -- Those who NEED CHANGE, are those who are IMPERFECT, and are IN NEED of "REPENTENCE"... such as ALL MEN... However...

That which is COMPLETE/PERFECT = YHVH GOD, ...is not in NEED of ANY ALTERATIONS whatsoever... EVER!  If the WORD made ALL THINGS Theo (and I thinking you believe this), then the WORD made an ERROR in MAKING THEM, ...if REPENTENCE (as applied to man) is IN ORDER for HE that MADE the Creation!

Do you really ascribe to this bro?  That JESUS CHRIST needs CORRECTION?  How may we therefore use the WORD for CORRECTION? -- 2 Tim 3:16 -- if in fact it is FALLIBLE? And IN NEED of REPENTENT CHANGE?

Your thinking disqualifes so many Scriptures it boggles the mind to even give place to it... so in my pause, ...might I conclude for now with the rebuke your thinking in the name of JESUS CHRIST... 

Also.. I shall break from this communication for a moment... seeya

...willieH 

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Theo... 

POST TWO:

When God said "For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed," [Mal 3:6] He was reasoning with disobedient Israel, who accused God of changing the covenant. God is reminding them that it was not HE that changes, but they through diosobedience; God is consistent to his covenant.

Look at the dialogue that led up to the statement that is so often misapplied in 3:6 -
Mal 2:8 But ye are departed out of the way; ye have caused many to stumble at the law; ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, saith the LORD of hosts. 9 Therefore have I also made you contemptible and base before all the people, according as ye have not kept my ways, but have been partial in the law. 10 Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers? 11 Judah hath dealt treacherously, and an abomination is committed in Israel and in Jerusalem; for Judah hath profaned the holiness of the LORD which he loved, and hath married the daughter of a strange god. 12 The LORD will cut off the man that doeth this, the master and the scholar, out of the tabernacles of Jacob, and him that offereth an offering unto the LORD of hosts. 13 And this have ye done again, covering the altar of the LORD with tears, with weeping, and with crying out, insomuch that he regardeth not the offering any more, or receiveth it with good will at your hand.

 14 Yet ye say, Wherefore? Because the LORD hath been witness between thee and the wife of thy youth, against whom thou hast dealt treacherously: yet is she thy companion, and the wife of thy covenant.
 15 And did not he make one? Yet had he the residue of the spirit. And wherefore one? That he might seek a godly seed. Therefore take heed to your spirit, and let none deal treacherously against the wife of his youth.
 16 For the LORD, the God of Israel, saith that he hateth putting away: for one covereth violence with his garment, saith the LORD of hosts: therefore take heed to your spirit, that ye deal not treacherously.
 17 Ye have wearied the LORD with your words. Yet ye say, Wherein have we wearied him? When ye say, Every one that doeth evil is good in the sight of the LORD, and he delighteth in them; or, Where is the God of judgment?

Look at the context in which God says "I change not" -
 Mal 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts. 2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap: 3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness. 4 Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years. 5 And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts. 6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed. 7 Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the LORD of hosts. But ye said, Wherein shall we return? 8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings. 9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation...." Israel tried to argue while full of self-righteous indignation. God would not allow them to get away with it.

Like MOST THEOLOGIANS... you demand PRINCIPLES remain in CONTEXT... when there is NO BIBLICAL demand to IMPRISON them to it...

Even so... your quotation here does NOT remove the purity of the statement made WITHIN it...

What IN the CONTEXT you have just presented, reduces the statement "I am YHVH, I CHANGE NOT" ? 

And are you going to attempt the same with -- Heb 13:8 -- Theo?  Shall you also endeavor to find a way to manipulate -- James 1:17 -- and note that somehow, in some way, there IS VARIANCE in the WORD?

That (at any cost) your "theology" might be sustained?  What is ultimately most important to you bro?  That you might be known as "correct"?  Or that you might LEARN the TRUTH?  ...Which is it?

That you have endeavored to note the CONTEXT in which Mal 3:6 rests,  ...does NOT in ANY WAY remove or NEGATE, what it -- Mal 3:6 -- states...

Does it really say such as you (wish it to) imply, Theo? ---  [in this instance, in My dealings with Israel] I am YHVH and I CHANGE NOT -- well, ...does it? 

This is a creation of YOUR IMAGINATION which purposes to IGNORE the ETERNAL PRINCIPLE that the statement implies... and try to use the CONTEXT in which it rests as an ISOLATION of this statement.  Hoping to negate it from being applied, OUTSIDE that CONTEXT...
 
(WH)

(3) you have noted that IMPERFECTION is that which dicates to PERFECTION -- as GOD must "react" to us, instead of the opposite...

For God to "NOT REACT" would make him NOT GOD. To react is not a sign of weakness, it is an expression of patience. When one does not act until another acts, is called fairness.

FIRST -- Please don't erect strawmen, Theo... I did not say anything about WEAKNESS... I maintain that the CLAY reacts to the HAND of the POTTER... The POTTER created the CLAY with its inherent trait of RESISTANCE... so the POTTER is NOT "reacting" to the RESISTANT NATURE that HE PROGRAMMED into the CLAY...  GOD didn't create ADAM "perfect" and then, say "OOPS... gotta go to plan B because the ding dong, didnt DO as I COMMANDED"...

The Lamb was SLAIN from the FOUNDATION of the WORLD [creation]... for the creation was to BE as it has BECOME... and the SAVIOR was to SAVE it from what it has BECOME.

SECOND -- About "reacting" and "fairness" --- GOD does NOTHING in most cases (excepting the flood, Sodom & Gomorrah, 10 commandments, etc), concerning the EVIL acts of MEN... do you not ask yourself WHY? 

He does NOTHING to stop SERIAL KILLERS (against innocence), ...is that fair?
He does NOTHING to stop TERRORIST Acts (against innocence), ...is that fair?
He does NOTHING to stop a PEDOPHILE (against innocence), ...is that fair?
He did NOTHING to stop HITLER (against His own people), ...is that fair?

Otherwise, it is simply an exercise of "I know what they will do and I will go first and stop them." If THAT is right, God would never have created man in the first place.

You have not recognized WHY God created man... So His non-intervention shall escape you as you endeavor to REASON with that non-intervention.

GOD does not intervene, because He has decided what shall occur in this life concerning ALL... Which is WHY, when CHRIST requested, if POSSIBLE, that the "cup" pass... it DID NOT.

end of post 2...

...willieH 

[Paul Hazelwood]

I still do not think we should lead people to believe there is no punishment after death, as it may have material consequences long after it is too late to alter consequences by repenting.

I advocate the pursuit of truth in which there is no fear.

And I certainly do NOT agree with the teachings of Thayer, nor Whittemore's 100 reasons to believe USAL. THAT doesn't make USAL wrong, it makes those authors reasons wrong, if indeed I am correct.

Yep, that is reasonable.  I do not agree with every thing I read either.

[Theo Book]

Theo, 5% is an oft-used estimate of the total of the world's population throughout history that have heard of Jesus Christ and believe on Him in this lifetime (95% "excluded").  So, the scriptures you quoted do indicate something else (further) has occurred, doesn't it?  

Do you really trust in the world's estimates, made with no means to observe, nor to count, nor to verify? I do not consider it an estimate, I consider it a guesstimate.

[jabcat]

When I think of all the pagan religions throughout history, and the relative few who have followed YWHW - especially, specifically calling on the name of His Son in this lifetime, then something close to those estimated numbers sounds possible to me.  It also may be that quibbling over it could distract from the main focus of what I'm saying.  But if it's truly a sticking point for you,  then let's look at some other scripture with this question - do you believe the ones who are "few who find it" who travel the narrow path,  vs. the majority that follow the broad path to destruction are really the vast numbers no man can count in the Rev. passage?  Since no man can come to the Father but through Jesus, how much of the world throughout history (and even presently in this current age/generation) do you believe have heard the name of Jesus with the understanding that He's the Messiah, and have been drawn to the risen Savior by the Holy Spirit?  I'd suggest by comparison, not very many.  Then we also have the millions in the OT....

Anyway, if you believe that the majority are saved somehow in this lifetime, not believing an even more generous estimate of which I've read (90%) that have never heard, then   .  "How shall they believe in Him in whom they have not heard?" - quote Apostle Paul.

If the numbers work better for you, take everything I said earlier about the eternal torment of masses of individuals in the presence of the gentle LAMB of God, while He just looks on - with no other purpose than pain and punishment - and then make it 50% of humanity - or even 25%.  How many millions of people would that be that Satan was able to "eternally" own and conquer, vs. the other group that Jesus' death is able to redeem, and He just sits there watching so much of His creation being forever tortured?  My main points are, what is the nature of the Lamb, and what is the victory that Jesus' death accomplished?  What is its depth, and breadth, and height?  

[Theo Book]

(WH)

... Also, I said that likely your "manner of discussion" was parallel to this one. 

For the sake of the blessed ears of the saints I will not get into an exchange with you on the "manner of discussion" that goes on on this thread. Suffice it to say, "be quick to listen, slow to speak, and perhaps God will bless us both."

(WH)

(1) you have noted that Adam & Eve were created PERFECT, yet manifested IMPERFECTION...

Rather than make accusations, I will try to approach the issues you raise with examples from scripture. I believe there is a chance you may not properly assess the issue of "perfection."

Paul, for example, quoted Christ as saying... " for my strength is made perfect in weakness."[II Cor 12:9]

And the Hebrew letter says, concerning Christ... And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;[Heb 5:9] The living Jesus was made perfect by dying. Antithesis perfects, if accomplished in one direction, but not in the other. Strength is perfected in weakness, life perfected in death; but weakness is not perfected in strength, nor is death perfected in life. At least, I see no such teaching in scripture.

(WH)

FIRST -- I didn't "accuse you" bro... You have stated that you believe that Adam & Eve were "created PERFECT"... and I disagree with that ASSUMPTION, for it is NOT WRITTEN that they were "created PERFECT"... 

Well, I see only one other possibility, unless there is a third (fourth)(fifth) that I do not yet see; and that is God created flawed material. There must then be either a flaw in the material or a flaw in the creation. I don't accept either one. God saw it and pronounced it "very Good." I can't see him saying that about flawed material or flawed effort on his part. How else do you explain it?


(WH)

THIRD -- Death is CORRECTED in LIFE... Death is the OPPOSITE of LIFE.  If there were NO such thing as DEATH... how would we truly KNOW we are "ALIVE"?  Or the precious VALUE of that LIFE?

Sorry. I do not see death as the opposite of life. God is the God of the living. He is the God of abraham, Isaac , Jacob, who are alive though they died. Death is an event that takes place among the living, but it is not the opposite of life.
Life dies? nope! The living die. Living goes on even among those who have died. And God is their God.


(WH)

The Scripture notes in Revelation -- Rev 4:6 -- that there are four BEASTS --- FULL of EYES --- is that your perception?  A creature that is nothing but EYES?  Surrounding the THRONE... EYES surrounding the throne?  Where does 1 beast end & the other begin, Theo?

What? If I hand you a glass full of water, do you assume I handed you only water? What happened to the glass? What happened "in your perception" to the beast that is "full of" eyes. Doesn't say is "only eyes."

The WORD of GOD, is a COMPLETELY SPIRITUAL document (from Genesis to Revelation).

 

oh! How does one corrupt a "completely spiritual document?"

(WH)

Can you really consider GOD to be an ALMIGHTY and ALL WISE (omniscient) being, when you picture Him REGRETTING His own WORK?  So much as saying, He "blew it" in His making of this Creation?  Then SCOLDS Himself for it?   

What do YOU think God meant when he said "...it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them?" [Gen 6:6-7]

(WH)

If GOD is truly OMNISCIENT (which I believe that He IS)... and in His WORD, it is noted that HE does NOT CHANGE -- Mal 3:6 -- Heb 13:8 -- James 1:17 --

So you reject the context of Mal 2 and 3 and the explanation of "God does not change?"

o.k.

moving on...

(WH)

Then the conveyance of the word "REPENTETH" in this verse (which MEANS CHANGE), cannot be as you percieve, otherwise GOD DOES CHANGE, and His WORD therefore, could not be RELIED upon as a PERMANENT entity, for the WORD brought forth ALL THINGS -- John 1:3 -- Col 1:16 -- and its promises, reports and statements are ALL become subject to REVISION by Him... You believe in a God of "do-overs"... rather than one which is FOUNDED upon such infinite WISDOM, as to be INCAPABLE of ERROR, and therefore NEVER in NEED of CHANGE... ETERNALLY.

The really sad part is that you consider the works of God's hands faulted, and subject to "do-overs" and constant adjustments. If you see what God really did, you would see a creature reaching to be what God intended, needing guidance, and accepting correction, and striving against almost overwhelming circumstances, just to stand on the brink of heaven and gaze upon him who so loves us. I do not see sinful man as God's faliure, I see sinful man as God's greates possible victory, which is why God will sing at my victory parade, assuming I by his grace and aid, will ultimately overcome the "self" of myself.

Do you know what gives God joy? OUR victories. "The LORD thy God in the midst of thee is mighty; he will save, he will rejoice over thee with joy; he will rest in his love, he will joy over thee with singing." [Zeph 3:17] I hope with all my soul to be there to hear God sing at MY victory over "self" and sin. But I am not simply a flaw in God's creation. I am made in his image, and exercise those gifts he gave me, for better or for worse, but exercise them I do, and receive correction when I misuse those same gifts. When God corrects me, I do not rejoice as my first reaction. It most certainly is my final reaction. I bask in his love, I joy in his light.

(WH)

If GOD indeed REGRETS His own initiated DOINGS... then what is to prevent Him from CHANGING His mind COMPLETELY about SAVING US, Theo? 

Because he is GOD and cannot break his oath nor his promises. When he "repents him of the evil he intended against Israel" that is not God changing, that is God keeping covenant with Israel, according to the parameters of the covenant even though there becomes a change in their relationship, from blessing to cursing. God changes from blessing Israel to cursing Israel, but it is not a case where God has dropped the agreement; it is a case where God has changed his mind and his approach to a problem, according to his own words.

Exo 32:11 And Moses besought the LORD his God, and said, LORD, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand?
 12 Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people.
 13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever.
 14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

GOD WILL, AND DOES REPENT
1. Gen 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the
earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

2. Gen 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created
from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping
thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made
them.

3. Exo 32:12 Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For
mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to
consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath,
and repent of this evil against thy people.

4. Exo 32:14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do
unto his people.

5. Deut 32:36 For the LORD shall judge his people, and repent himself
for his servants, when he seeth that their power is gone, and there is
none shut up, or left.

6. Jdgs 2:18 And when the LORD raised them up judges, then the LORD
was with the judge, and delivered them out of the hand of their
enemies all the days of the judge: for it repented the LORD because of
their groanings by reason of them that oppressed them and vexed them.

7. 1 Sam 15:11 It repenteth me that I have set up Saul to be king: for
he is turned back from following me, and hath not performed my
commandments. And it grieved Samuel; and he cried unto the LORD all
night.

8. 1 Sam 15:35 And Samuel came no more to see Saul until the day of his
death: nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul: and the LORD repented
that he had made Saul king over Israel.

9. 2 Sam 24:16 And when the angel stretched out his hand upon
Jerusalem to destroy it, the LORD repented him of the evil, and said
to the angel that destroyed the people, It is enough: stay now thine
hand. And the angel of the LORD was by the threshingplace of Araunah
the Jebusite.

10. 1 Chron 21:15 And God sent an angel unto Jerusalem to destroy it:
and as he was destroying, the LORD beheld, and he repented him of the
evil, and said to the angel that destroyed, It is enough, stay now
thine hand. And the angel of the LORD stood by the threshingfloor of
Ornan the Jebusite.

11. Psalm 90:13 Return, O LORD, how long? and let it repent thee
concerning thy servants.

12. Psalm 106:45 And he remembered for them his covenant, and
repented according to the multitude of his mercies.

13. Psalm 135:14 For the LORD will judge his people, and he will
repent himself concerning his servants.

14. Jer 18:8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn
from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto
them.

15. Jer 18:10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice,
then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.

16. Jer 26:3 If so be they will hearken, and turn every man from his
evil way, that I may repent me of the evil, which I purpose to do unto
them because of the evil of their doings.

17. Jer 26:13 Therefore now amend your ways and your doings, and obey
the voice of the LORD your God; and the LORD will repent him of the
evil that he hath pronounced against you.

18. Jer 26:19 Did Hezekiah king of Judah and all Judah put him at all
to death? did he not fear the LORD, and besought the LORD, and the
LORD repented him of the evil which he had pronounced against them?
Thus might we procure great evil against our souls.

19. Jer 42:10 If ye will still abide in this land, then will I build
you, and not pull you down, and I will plant you, and not pluck you
up: for I repent me of the evil that I have done unto you.

20. Eze 24:14 I the LORD have spoken it: it shall come to pass, and I
will do it; I will not go back, neither will I spare, neither will I
repent; according to thy ways, and according to thy doings, shall they
judge thee, saith the Lord GOD.

21. Joel 2:13 And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn
unto the LORD your God: for he is gracious and merciful, slow to
anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth him of the evil.

22. Joel 2:14 Who knoweth if he will return and repent, and leave a
blessing behind him; even a meat offering and a drink offering unto
the LORD your God?

23. Amos 7:3 The LORD repented for this: It shall not be, saith the
LORD.

24. Amos 7:6 The LORD repented for this: This also shall not be,
saith the Lord GOD.

25. Jonah 3:9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away
from his fierce anger, that we perish not?

26. Jonah 3:10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their
evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would
do unto them; and he did it not.

Whether you want to understand God's use of "repentance" as a change, or not, matters not to me. Just do not accuse me of misrepresenting God's logos when I not only tell you God repented, but I show you where God said he repented.

(WH)

If indeed you are CORRECT, and He was REPRIMANDING Himself for CREATING both Men and Beasts... what kind of MIND, does He (according to YOUR VIEW of Him) really have?  More one which is IN NEED of COUNSELLING, for it is UNSTABLE... Yet His WORD says NO ONE COUNSELS Him! -- Rom 11:34

Just for the record, I did not say he was reprimanding himself. That is YOUR assessment.

(WH)

So WHERE (if indeed you are correct), does that leave us poor, in NEED of SAVING, sinners, Theo?  I'd say, at the mercy of a being which is Unlimited in Power while being UNSTABLE and PSYCOTIC!    Able and WILLING to CHANGE His mind about ANYTHING, at ANY MOMENT... 

I would urge caution on your part my friend, it seems you verge on judging God for things you do not understand.


(TB)

God can be grieved. Is that considered imperfection?

(WH) That it grieves GOD (which is GOOD), to watch us within the clutches of the UGLY REVELATION of the KNOWLEDGE of EVIL... does not mean that this is IMPERFECTION, and I have not implied that in any of my answers to you.

Grieving is not a mark of IMPERFECTION at all and I have not suggested any such thing...

Hey, chill out., It was a QUESTION, not an accusation.

God repents of some decisions he made. Is that imperfection? Are you taking the position that to change one's mind is imperfection in action?

(WH) FIRST -- GOD does NOT change via REPENTENCE... for REPENTENCE is due of one which has ERRED... You are welcome to behold Him in such a lowly manner, as I said, I shall NOT.

Please re-read the 26 references posted just above. Explain again where God's choice of expression is to be considered by his "flawed creation" as an "error." I really think you should spend some time reading what scripture says about repentance, and see how many times the concept is used of God. It is HIS words, not mine.

[Theo Book]

When I think of all the pagan religions throughout history, and the relative few who have followed YWHW - especially, specifically calling on the name of His Son in this lifetime, then something close to those estimated numbers sounds possible to me.  It also may be that quibbling over it could distract from the main focus of what I'm saying.  But if it's truly a sticking point for you,  then let's look at some other scripture with this question - do you believe the ones who are "few who find it" who travel the narrow path,  vs. the majority that follow the broad path to destruction are really the vast numbers no man can count in the Rev. passage?  Since no man can come to the Father but through Jesus, how much of the world throughout history (and even presently in this current age/generation) do you believe have heard the name of Jesus with the understanding that He's the Messiah, and have been drawn to the risen Savior by the Holy Spirit?  I'd suggest by comparison, not very many.  Then we also have the millions in the OT....

Anyway, if you believe that the majority are saved somehow in this lifetime, not believing an even more generous estimate of which I've read (90%) that have never heard, then   .  "How shall they believe in Him in whom they have not heard?" - quote Apostle Paul.

If the numbers work better for you, take everything I said earlier about the eternal torment of masses of individuals in the presence of the gentle LAMB of God, while He just looks on - with no other purpose than pain and punishment - and then make it 50% of humanity - or even 25%.  How many millions of people would that be that Satan was able to "eternally" own and conquer, vs. the other group that Jesus' death is able to redeem, and He just sits there watching so much of His creation being forever tortured?  My main points are, what is the nature of the Lamb, and what is the victory that Jesus' death accomplished?  What is its depth, and breadth, and height?  

I think my intent has slipped paast in the exchange. I do not think the Revelation reference is a completed assessment, rather, I think it show that there will be many more opportunities for souls to hear the glorys of the gospel. If the judgment were to occur today, the numbers would be far different, but I do not see the judgment as occuring today.

I think God was giving the saints hope by showing them that the number of the save will be enormous, beyond our every right to hope, as his gospel is not idle, but living and active.

[jabcat]

I think we were pretty close to saying the same things.  It's just so easy to get distracted/diverted sometimes 

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Theo...  

POST THREE:

WH)

(4) you propose that GOD who is PERFECT is able to "REPENT" for things He has DONE... which denotes Him to CHANGE His mind... which proposes that His mind is as unstable as ours.

(I change my mind. Paranoid Skitzophrenics change their mind. Does that make me unstable as the schizophrenic? God changes his mind. That in NO WAY makes his mmind unstable, rather, it shows that we who change our minds are in the image of God who changes his mind when circumstances cause changes in the pattern originally intended.

Both of your referred subjects are SINNERS -- YOU and the "schizophenic"... both are subject to CHANGE, for YOU could become "SCHIZOPHRENIC" (which is a mental disease), and the "SCHIZOPHRENIC" could be healed from his condition...  

(I think perhaps there is a problem in understanding what it is to say "God's will will be done." There seems to be a concerted belief that God's will cannot be resisted. Tell me, is God known as the Holy Spirit (Holy Ghost)?

"And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: 29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. 30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. 31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. 32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call." [Joel 2:28-32]

 16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
 19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
 21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved." [Acts 2:16-21]

There is no place in the bible where another Holy Spirit is introduced as a separate person from the Father. What do you suppose is the meaning of these words? "Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye." [Acts 7:51]

Neither of these quotations note that the WILL of GOD was RESISTED... that GOD's COMMANDS are resisted (by the "stiffnecked IN HEART and EARS") -- Hey that is more than obvious... but the WILL of GOD cannot be RESISTED!

As I have stated throughout this convo, ...it is quite obvious that MEN are RESISTENT to GOD... for several times, I have already acknowledged, that CLAY by NATURE is RESISTANT.

However the WILL of GOD is not RESISTED by MEN... for they walk the pathway that GOD DECLARED they would -- Isaiah 46:10 -- (how many times must I repeat this?)...

NO MAN can RESIST the WILL of GOD... which WILL is clearly stated:

2 Pet 3:9 -- God --  is NOT WILLING that ANY should PERISH, but that ALL should come to REPENTENCE...

and Scripture verifies what Peter said in that verse, in this one:

Rom 9:19 -- Thou wilt say unto me: why doth He yet find fault?  For WHO hath RESISTED ...HIS WILL?

and this one:

1 Tim 2:4 -- who ...WILL... have ALL men to be SAVED, and to come to the knowledge of the TRUTH...

MAN resists the COMMAND of GOD by NATURE, ...but NO MAN can RESIST the WILL of GOD... which is to SAVE ALL MEN -- 1 Tim 4:9-11 -- Rom 5:18-20 -- 1 Tim 2:3-6 -- 1 John 4:14 & 2:2 -- Luke 19:10 -- John 1:29 -- The TRUTH is written throughout the WORD of God, Theo ...just open your eyes...

(You ask continually "can a man resist God?" When I respond
"yes" I am corrected. I think you need to look again at all the times men resisted God's good will.

Please provide the Scriptures where it is stated that MAN has RESISTED the WILL of GOD...

(WH)

(5) in the proposal that Scripture notes that He can "REPENT"... Scripture which says that HE does NOT CHANGE -- Mal 3:6 -- is therefore compromised...

(See above response using Malachai chapters 2 and 3.

Already refuted this UNSTABLE nonsense.

(WH)

(6) your proposal that GOD brings forth things which do NOT function as INTENDED, arises the thought that within the course of the ETERNAL setting, ...that which is said to be PASSED AWAY, could potentially reappear, due to GOD's shortcomings as a "designer"... Also compromising the Scriptures...

(The imagination of men as to what could possibly go wrong, has no influence upon God's creation as to what actually DOES go wrong, all in accord with God's design in giving free will to men.

Free will is not a discussable premise on Tentmaker, but because you mentioned it... please note in the Scriptures where it SAYS that God GAVE MEN, ...FREE WILL...

(Free will does not mean man can overpower Gopd's will. It means God hazs established parameters within which man pleases God, and outside of which man displeases God.

This is nothing but YOUR imagination... there is no Scriptural basis for this.  Please note the Scriptures upon which you base this statement.  That GOD has established parameters concerning FREE WILL...

(It is GOD, not priests, who established those parameters. God established other parameters that have nothing to do with moral decisions, but rather establish God as in charge of what man can accomplish; for example, man's space program with a goal to wander the stars, God has established parameters that will limit how far man can go in his heavens.

More of your imagination NOT FOUND in the WORD... note the Scriptural basis for this conjecture.

("The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD'S: but the earth hath he given to the children of men." [Psalm 115:16] Man thinks he can send a Hubble telescope into heaven to gaze on the face of God, but God says otherwise.

FIRST -- There is NO INTENTION whatsoever that notes -- "MAN thinks he can send a Hubble telescope into heaven to GAZE on the FACE OF GOD."  Come on Theo... Science doesn't even acknowledge GOD, let alone seek His "FACE"

SECOND -- Do you doubt that the HUBBLE TELESCOPE is actually "IN SPACE"?  They went to the Moon... and if time allows, WILL go to MARS... where is this "BOUNDARY", Theo?  ...(book, chapter, verse)

Come on, Theo why not admit it... you are really grabbing at straws which have nothing to do with this convo.

(But when it comes to moral issues, God made laws and set them in motion, then stood back and watched to see if men would obey or not. "And thou shalt remember all the way which the LORD thy God led thee these forty years in the wilderness, to humble thee, and to prove thee, to know what was in thine heart, whether thou wouldest keep his commandments, or no." [Deut 8:2]

Please brother T... are you really serious?  

God did not "stand back" to "SEE" ...IF... men would obey", Theo!  

He KNEW before a man took a breath that He would NOT OBEY! and not only did He KNOW, ...He DECLARED it would be SO!

Not only did He KNOW and (before a man lived) DECLARE that MAN [Adam] would NOT OBEY... it is WRITTEN in the UNCHANGING/UNVARYING --- WORD of GOD that -- Rom 3:23 -- ALL have SINNED and come short of the Glory of God...  

This isn't some "idea" that just "happened to occur to the Apostle Paul", Theo... this is a STATIONARY, IMMOVEABLE FACT of the ETERNAL WORD of GOD...

This includes the COMPLETE number of humanity YET to be BORN...

And I might add... this TRUTH has COME to PASS in ALL as is stated, do you disagree with that too?

(WH)

Need more?

Well, THOSE certainly seemed inadequate.

  ...so "inadaquate" that YOU had no SOUND or Scriptural reply to ANY of them...

...willieH  

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Theo...

(WH)

FIRST -- I didn't "accuse you" bro... You have stated that you believe that Adam & Eve were "created PERFECT"... and I disagree with that ASSUMPTION, for it is NOT WRITTEN that they were "created PERFECT"...  

Well, I see only one other possibility, unless there is a third (fourth)(fifth) that I do not yet see; and that is God created flawed material.

This is my WHOLE POINT, Theo... GOD did not create FLAWED material... He created the scenario in which the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL would be REVEALED...

The KNOWLEDGE of EVIL, brings forth IMPERFECTION when LIVED and PRACTICED... until the CREATION... NO EVIL was either done, or lived... There is no documentation that substanciates it.

The KNOWLEDGE of EVIL is also part of the KNOWLEDGE of GOD -- Gen 3:22 -- and because it is HIS KNOWLEDGE it is therefore PERFECT.  Because it has FLAWS does not indicate it is IMPERFECT... It indicates that EVIL when PERFECTLY REVEALED displays LIFE in a FLAWED condition, when compared to its OPPOSITE which is GOOD. For GOOD is that which reveals the FLAWS found in the practice and LIVING of EVIL.

GOD is PERFECT and HAS this KNOWLEDGE... so what is truly "flawed" is your perception of HIS KNOWLEDGE...

There must then be either a flaw in the material or a flaw in the creation. I don't accept either one. God saw it and pronounced it "very Good." I can't see him saying that about flawed material or flawed effort on his part. How else do you explain it?

I have just explained it Theo... The TRUTH is that EVIL, when exposed to GOOD concerning the LIVING of LIFE... is shown to be UNACCEPTABLE... and brings forth -- Pain, sorrow, death, etc... ALL which are CONTRARY to LIFE...

GOD is LIFE -- John 14:6 -- and that which is CONTRARY to LIFE is that which brings forth DEATH...

Don't know how much more of the "merry-go-round" I shall ride with you...

You are welcome to believe that elephants can tie square knots brother Theo... it is really irrelevant to me... I believe I have more than shown the shallow observations you cling to for what they are... God "standing by to see IF man would disobey" is the PERFECT example of your ignorant REDUCTIONS of Him and His ALMIGHTY, OMNISCIENT and HOLY purpose... which is availed in this course of this world in REVEALING the KNOWLEDGE only HE HAD in the Eternal... the (one) KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL... which is ROOTED in the SAME TREE -- which is IN the MIDST of the GARDEN... which "garden" is the HEART of YHVH God -- Gen 2:9 -- Gen 3:22

The MIDST is the CENTER... and the CENTER of ALL THINGS is the HEART of YHVH -- for the WORD proceeds from Him, and the WORD is that of which ALL THINGS emerge and CONSIST -- Col 1:17 -- John 1:3

To really know the TRUTH of the WORD, one must delete oneself from being the "CENTER"... and then shall that one KNOW in this submission, that the ONE [YHVH], which is TRULY in the CENTER -- SO (eternally) LOVES the (entire) WORLD (not just the one which in his/her carnality, is centered upon him/herself within his/her thinking)



...willieH  

[peacemaker]

Eternal ...with this, therefore, because of this ...there is no dualistic causality, unless there is a beginning. If you keep doing what you have been doing, you will keep getting the same results. Thus, we appear to be in a period (time) of testing to ascertain our fitness, giving the offender a choice; under the guidance of the SPIRIT.

I have no doubt that the Spirit regrets or repents of the sins of men, as any differentiation of these two words were not present in times past. Words acquire new meanings and shed old meanings. However...

"The right, power, or privilege of making a choice requires judgment, and we live within the consequences of our decisions; right or wrong."

One of the fundamental laws of creation contrasted within this life.

peacemaker