... Also, I said that likely your "manner of discussion" was parallel to this one.
For the sake of the blessed ears of the saints I will not get into an exchange with you on the "manner of discussion" that goes on on this thread. Suffice it to say, "be quick to listen, slow to speak, and perhaps God will bless us both."
(1) you have noted that Adam & Eve were created PERFECT, yet manifested IMPERFECTION...
Rather than make accusations, I will try to approach the issues you raise with examples from scripture. I believe there is a chance you may not properly assess the issue of "perfection."
Paul, for example, quoted Christ as saying... " for my strength is made perfect in weakness."[II Cor 12:9]
And the Hebrew letter says, concerning Christ... And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;[Heb 5:9] The living Jesus was made perfect by dying. Antithesis perfects, if accomplished in one direction, but not in the other. Strength is perfected in weakness, life perfected in death; but weakness is not perfected in strength, nor is death perfected in life. At least, I see no such teaching in scripture.
FIRST -- I didn't "accuse you" bro... You have stated that you believe that Adam & Eve were "created PERFECT"... and I disagree with that ASSUMPTION, for it is NOT WRITTEN that they were "created PERFECT"...
Well, I see only one other possibility, unless there is a third (fourth)(fifth) that I do not yet see; and that is God created flawed material. There must then be either a flaw in the material or a flaw in the creation. I don't accept either one. God saw it and pronounced it "very Good." I can't see him saying that about flawed material or flawed effort on his part. How else do you explain it?
THIRD -- Death is CORRECTED in LIFE... Death is the OPPOSITE of LIFE. If there were NO such thing as DEATH... how would we truly KNOW we are "ALIVE"? Or the precious VALUE of that LIFE?
Sorry. I do not see death as the opposite of life. God is the God of the living. He is the God of abraham, Isaac , Jacob, who are alive though they died. Death is an event that takes place among the living, but it is not the opposite of life.
Life dies? nope! The living die. Living goes on even among those who have died. And God is their God.
The Scripture notes in Revelation -- Rev 4:6 -- that there are four BEASTS --- FULL of EYES --- is that your perception? A creature that is nothing but EYES? Surrounding the THRONE... EYES surrounding the throne? Where does 1 beast end & the other begin, Theo?
What? If I hand you a glass full of water, do you assume I handed you only water? What happened to the glass? What happened "in your perception" to the beast that is "full of" eyes. Doesn't say is "only eyes."
The WORD of GOD, is a COMPLETELY SPIRITUAL document (from Genesis to Revelation).
oh! How does one corrupt a "completely spiritual document?"
Can you really consider GOD to be an ALMIGHTY and ALL WISE (omniscient) being, when you picture Him REGRETTING His own WORK? So much as saying, He "blew it" in His making of this Creation? Then SCOLDS Himself for it?
What do YOU think God meant when he said "...it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them?" [Gen 6:6-7]
If GOD is truly OMNISCIENT (which I believe that He IS)... and in His WORD, it is noted that HE does NOT CHANGE -- Mal 3:6 -- Heb 13:8 -- James 1:17 --
So you reject the context of Mal 2 and 3 and the explanation of "God does not change?"
Then the conveyance of the word "REPENTETH" in this verse (which MEANS CHANGE), cannot be as you percieve, otherwise GOD DOES CHANGE, and His WORD therefore, could not be RELIED upon as a PERMANENT entity, for the WORD brought forth ALL THINGS -- John 1:3 -- Col 1:16 -- and its promises, reports and statements are ALL become subject to REVISION by Him... You believe in a God of "do-overs"... rather than one which is FOUNDED upon such infinite WISDOM, as to be INCAPABLE of ERROR, and therefore NEVER in NEED of CHANGE... ETERNALLY.
The really sad part is that you consider the works of God's hands faulted, and subject to "do-overs" and constant adjustments. If you see what God really did, you would see a creature reaching to be what God intended, needing guidance, and accepting correction, and striving against almost overwhelming circumstances, just to stand on the brink of heaven and gaze upon him who so loves us. I do not see sinful man as God's faliure, I see sinful man as God's greates possible victory, which is why God will sing at my victory parade, assuming I by his grace and aid, will ultimately overcome the "self" of myself.
Do you know what gives God joy? OUR victories. "The LORD thy God in the midst of thee is mighty; he will save, he will rejoice over thee with joy; he will rest in his love, he will joy over thee with singing." [Zeph 3:17] I hope with all my soul to be there to hear God sing at MY victory over "self" and sin. But I am not simply a flaw in God's creation. I am made in his image, and exercise those gifts he gave me, for better or for worse, but exercise them I do, and receive correction when I misuse those same gifts. When God corrects me, I do not rejoice as my first reaction. It most certainly is my final reaction. I bask in his love, I joy in his light.
If GOD indeed REGRETS His own initiated DOINGS... then what is to prevent Him from CHANGING His mind COMPLETELY about SAVING US, Theo?
Because he is GOD and cannot break his oath nor his promises. When he "repents him of the evil he intended against Israel" that is not God changing, that is God keeping covenant with Israel, according to the parameters of the covenant even though there becomes a change in their relationship, from blessing to cursing. God changes from blessing Israel to cursing Israel, but it is not a case where God has dropped the agreement; it is a case where God has changed his mind and his approach to a problem, according to his own words.
Exo 32:11 And Moses besought the LORD his God, and said, LORD, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand?
12 Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people.
13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever.
14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.
GOD WILL, AND DOES REPENT
1. Gen 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the
earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
2. Gen 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created
from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping
thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made
3. Exo 32:12 Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For
mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to
consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath,
and repent of this evil against thy people.
4. Exo 32:14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do
unto his people.
5. Deut 32:36 For the LORD shall judge his people, and repent himself
for his servants, when he seeth that their power is gone, and there is
none shut up, or left.
6. Jdgs 2:18 And when the LORD raised them up judges, then the LORD
was with the judge, and delivered them out of the hand of their
enemies all the days of the judge: for it repented the LORD because of
their groanings by reason of them that oppressed them and vexed them.
7. 1 Sam 15:11 It repenteth me that I have set up Saul to be king: for
he is turned back from following me, and hath not performed my
commandments. And it grieved Samuel; and he cried unto the LORD all
8. 1 Sam 15:35 And Samuel came no more to see Saul until the day of his
death: nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul: and the LORD repented
that he had made Saul king over Israel.
9. 2 Sam 24:16 And when the angel stretched out his hand upon
Jerusalem to destroy it, the LORD repented him of the evil, and said
to the angel that destroyed the people, It is enough: stay now thine
hand. And the angel of the LORD was by the threshingplace of Araunah
10. 1 Chron 21:15 And God sent an angel unto Jerusalem to destroy it:
and as he was destroying, the LORD beheld, and he repented him of the
evil, and said to the angel that destroyed, It is enough, stay now
thine hand. And the angel of the LORD stood by the threshingfloor of
Ornan the Jebusite.
11. Psalm 90:13 Return, O LORD, how long? and let it repent thee
concerning thy servants.
12. Psalm 106:45 And he remembered for them his covenant, and
repented according to the multitude of his mercies.
13. Psalm 135:14 For the LORD will judge his people, and he will
repent himself concerning his servants.
14. Jer 18:8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn
from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto
15. Jer 18:10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice,
then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.
16. Jer 26:3 If so be they will hearken, and turn every man from his
evil way, that I may repent me of the evil, which I purpose to do unto
them because of the evil of their doings.
17. Jer 26:13 Therefore now amend your ways and your doings, and obey
the voice of the LORD your God; and the LORD will repent him of the
evil that he hath pronounced against you.
18. Jer 26:19 Did Hezekiah king of Judah and all Judah put him at all
to death? did he not fear the LORD, and besought the LORD, and the
LORD repented him of the evil which he had pronounced against them?
Thus might we procure great evil against our souls.
19. Jer 42:10 If ye will still abide in this land, then will I build
you, and not pull you down, and I will plant you, and not pluck you
up: for I repent me of the evil that I have done unto you.
20. Eze 24:14 I the LORD have spoken it: it shall come to pass, and I
will do it; I will not go back, neither will I spare, neither will I
repent; according to thy ways, and according to thy doings, shall they
judge thee, saith the Lord GOD.
21. Joel 2:13 And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn
unto the LORD your God: for he is gracious and merciful, slow to
anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth him of the evil.
22. Joel 2:14 Who knoweth if he will return and repent, and leave a
blessing behind him; even a meat offering and a drink offering unto
the LORD your God?
23. Amos 7:3 The LORD repented for this: It shall not be, saith the
24. Amos 7:6 The LORD repented for this: This also shall not be,
saith the Lord GOD.
25. Jonah 3:9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away
from his fierce anger, that we perish not?
26. Jonah 3:10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their
evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would
do unto them; and he did it not.
Whether you want to understand God's use of "repentance" as a change, or not, matters not to me. Just do not accuse me of misrepresenting God's logos when I not only tell you God repented, but I show you where God said he repented.
If indeed you are CORRECT, and He was REPRIMANDING Himself for CREATING both Men and Beasts... what kind of MIND, does He (according to YOUR VIEW of Him) really have? More one which is IN NEED of COUNSELLING, for it is UNSTABLE... Yet His WORD says NO ONE COUNSELS Him! -- Rom 11:34
Just for the record, I did not say he was reprimanding himself. That is YOUR assessment.
So WHERE (if indeed you are correct), does that leave us poor, in NEED of SAVING, sinners, Theo? I'd say, at the mercy of a being which is Unlimited in Power while being UNSTABLE and PSYCOTIC! Able and WILLING to CHANGE His mind about ANYTHING, at ANY MOMENT...
I would urge caution on your part my friend, it seems you verge on judging God for things you do not understand.
God can be grieved. Is that considered imperfection?
(WH) That it grieves GOD (which is GOOD), to watch us within the clutches of the UGLY REVELATION of the KNOWLEDGE of EVIL... does not mean that this is IMPERFECTION, and I have not implied that in any of my answers to you.
Grieving is not a mark of IMPERFECTION at all and I have not suggested any such thing...
Hey, chill out., It was a QUESTION, not an accusation.
God repents of some decisions he made. Is that imperfection? Are you taking the position that to change one's mind is imperfection in action?
(WH) FIRST -- GOD does NOT change via REPENTENCE... for REPENTENCE is due of one which has ERRED... You are welcome to behold Him in such a lowly manner, as I said, I shall NOT.
Please re-read the 26 references posted just above. Explain again where God's choice of expression is to be considered by his "flawed creation" as an "error." I really think you should spend some time reading what scripture says about repentance, and see how many times the concept is used of God. It is HIS words, not mine.