Author Topic: "too late" mentallity  (Read 2757 times)

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NinjaWizards777

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"too late" mentallity
« on: March 18, 2009, 03:02:58 AM »
its a funny thing how whenever i get "close to the line" in spirtual conversations as far as talking about universalism, the first reaction I ussually get to verses like isaiah 45:23 is "no no itll be too late for them to be saved, their just bowing because their forced to and ashamed". But funny thing is when asked, NO ONE seems to be able to come up with where this "too late" mentality comes from...or at least arent able to defend it well at all.

the verse I guess that comes to mind for me is mark 7 when Jesus is talking about "depart from me I never knew you", which i still dont think denotes eternal seperation but yeah. thoughts?

Offline legoman

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Re: "too late" mentallity
« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2009, 03:19:17 AM »
Hebrews 9:27  And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:


I believe this is the verse everyone uses to show its "too late" once you die - because then judgment comes.

"judgment" is oh so scary and final sounding I guess.

But don't forget what happens when judgment comes:
Isaiah 26:9 ...for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

Do you think once everyone has learned righteousness, they will want to be righteous and pursue righteousness?

Psalm 33:5 The LORD loves righteousness and justice; the earth is full of his unfailing love.

Proverbs 15:9 The LORD detests the way of the wicked but he loves those who pursue righteousness.

Cheers,
Legoman

Offline Doc

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Re: "too late" mentallity
« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2009, 03:37:14 AM »
Hebrews 9:27  And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:


I believe this is the verse everyone uses to show its "too late" once you die - because then judgment comes.

"judgment" is oh so scary and final sounding I guess.

But don't forget what happens when judgment comes:
Isaiah 26:9 ...for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

Do you think once everyone has learned righteousness, they will want to be righteous and pursue righteousness?

Psalm 33:5 The LORD loves righteousness and justice; the earth is full of his unfailing love.

Proverbs 15:9 The LORD detests the way of the wicked but he loves those who pursue righteousness.

Cheers,
Legoman

Not to mention that that isn't even what Hebrews 9 is talking about.
God does not instruct us to pray to change His mind. He wants us to pray so that we'll know His mind.
 
"Prayer doesn't change God, it changes me." --C.S. Lewis

God never had or needed a Plan B. He's still on Plan A.

Res Veritas Loquitur

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Re: "too late" mentallity
« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2009, 09:26:34 PM »
I believe this is the verse everyone uses to show its "too late" once you die - because then judgment comes.

They have no other choice than that interpretation...
Life -> death -> judgement -> eternal punishment
Then indeed there is no chance after death.
Everyhing seems to grab back to aion.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

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Re: "too late" mentallity
« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2009, 09:28:43 PM »
Do you think once everyone has learned righteousness, they will want to be righteous and pursue righteousness?
They want. But God won't change His mind after they bowed. According to all but UR.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline legoman

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Re: "too late" mentallity
« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2009, 10:08:36 PM »
The way the whole thing is structured is twisted, devious and self supporting.  Its really quite amazing.

Aion/aionios must mean eternal because it refers to God and "eternal" life.
Hell is obviously described in the bible as a place of eternal punishment.  Many verses support this with "eternal" fire, lake of fire, eternal torment, etc.  After we die, immediately comes the judgement, therefore we are led into a "one chance in this life only" mentality.

And of course: God is love.

That's the core structure of deception, hereafter referred to as Core of Deceptiontm.  Its self-supporting: if aion/aionios no longer means eternal, then the life we receive must end and/or God is somehow not eternal.  If Hell is not eternal, we have the same problem, then the life is not eternal.   If there is no hell at all, then we have the problem of explaining all the hell/fire verses, and without Hell somehow that is not just.

Yeah right.  Justice.

This Core of Deceptiontm is so strong - it is so hard to break down.  It becomes the Truth. Only careful study of scriptures (studying words like aion and hell), and being led by the Holy Spirit will cause it to crumble.  And because it is so strong leads to some truly bizarre ideas.  Like the ideas of justice.

Since God is eternal, and we commit finite sins, only an eternal punishment will satisfy God.  This fits perfectly with the Core of Deceptiontm.  Yet immediately, any free-thinking moral human should see that infinte punishment is not justice for a finite crime.

Our image of God becomes truly twisted.  God creates most of humanity for the purpose of being burned in fire eternally.  When taken to the extreme, this becomes the stuff of horror movies.  Using this Core of Deceptiontm as the base, some will come to the "correct" conclusion of Calvinism.  God is ultimately sovereign - this is the truth.  When applied here you come to realize that God purposes many people to go to hell - and they have no hope because it is God's sovereign will.  This somehow glorifies God.  By sending people to hell (just because He can) - this brings glory to God.  Mind-boggling stuff.

Now continuing on with this application -  the truth of God's sovereignty applied to the Core of Deceptiontm - this ultimately leads to this conclusion that:  even though God is love, He doesn't love everyone.  In fact He hates most people for eternity - the ones He sends to hell.  If he did love them, why would he send them to hell?  He hates all workers of iniquity (never mind He made them that way).  Going even to further extremes - we then realize God told us to love our enemies.  But this does not mean God's enemies - because He does not love his own enemies (they go to hell).  We (the chosen elect, since we now assume we are part of God's chosen) are actually free to hate those we "know" are enemies of God.

Truly twisted.  The Core of Deceptiontm has turned the wonderous holy, just, righteous, ultimately good God into a God who hates and carries out revenge on his enemies eternally.  Even more than that, it allows us to hate God's enemies (because that's what we really want to do).  It has given us free reign to hate.  We have turned the glorious gospel of good news and love into a message of hate.

Now of course some verses don't fit in exactly with the Coretm - Jesus is the saviour of the world - Jesus tells us to 'love our enemies' - God will reconcile the world - etc.  But because the Coretm has such power, it allows us to redefine those verses to something that fits.  Everything becomes consistent with the Core of Deceptiontm by redefinition, because otherwise the Core of Deceptiontm wouldn't be true, and it must be true at all costs.

The scary part is some people do take it to this extreme.  They have gone so far that they have rationalized that it is ok to hate because God hates.  Scary stuff.

Peace and love to you,
Legoman

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Re: "too late" mentallity
« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2009, 08:22:57 AM »
Even satan can learn a few thing of the CoDs authors....

What you wrote is exactly how I see it. Every twisted angle is covered.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline legoman

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Re: "too late" mentallity
« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2009, 02:11:05 PM »
Well I would say Satan is the master mind behind the whole thing.

People say that the biggest trick Satan ever pulled was to convince people he doesn't exist.

I used to believe that one - but now I think the biggest trick he ever pulled was to convince people that there is a hell.


IceDash

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Re: "too late" mentallity
« Reply #8 on: March 20, 2009, 05:11:11 PM »
Well I would say Satan is the master mind behind the whole thing.

People say that the biggest trick Satan ever pulled was to convince people he doesn't exist.

I used to believe that one - but now I think the biggest trick he ever pulled was to convince people that there is a hell.



Maybe the next trick is: "what one world government? They don't exist" :laughing7:

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Re: "too late" mentallity
« Reply #9 on: March 20, 2009, 05:15:14 PM »
iD,

If the NWO is a trick of satan (lot of occult in that circle) then the truth has to come out.
NWO is the ideal stage for many things mentioned in Revelation.
(assuming it hasn't happend yet)
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

IceDash

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Re: "too late" mentallity
« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2009, 05:18:03 PM »
iD,

If the NWO is a trick of satan (lot of occult in that circle) then the truth has to come out.
NWO is the ideal stage for many things mentioned in Revelation.
(assuming it hasn't happend yet)

How do you think the anti-christ gotta force all the foreign people (eskimo, indian tribe and other people who don't use technogoly) get a mark? By killing 54% of earth people, doesn't add up.

Offline legoman

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Re: "too late" mentallity
« Reply #11 on: March 20, 2009, 05:49:25 PM »
iD,

If the NWO is a trick of satan (lot of occult in that circle) then the truth has to come out.
NWO is the ideal stage for many things mentioned in Revelation.
(assuming it hasn't happend yet)

I think the whole NWO thing is another layer of deception.  Not that I don't think there is a NWO... but its all based on lies and layers and layers of deception.

- most of the public doesn't realize there is a NWO being planned.  They (the public) are deceived, because they don't realize how much control the NWO types have.
- a small portion of the public believes and thinks they have it figured out - there is a NWO (the conspiracy folklore), and they believe it will relate to the anti-christ and the some sort of mark of the beast control system.  They are deceived because they are falling into the trap that the mainstream church believes - the rapture, final 7 years of tribulation, one great anti-christ, mark of the beast system, etc. leading to a final battle where people will go to heaven/hell - ie. some sort of "Left Behind" scenario
- others don't believe in God and think the NWO types are using "Christian folklore" as a means to an end and to control the population - in a sense they are correct, but still they are deceived.
- even those who are in the NWO - they themselves are deceived.  Some are in it for power and control and don't believe in God, but believe they themselves will become gods.  Others are in it because they believe they are following "Lucifer" the true angel of light.  They are deceived.
- these things become a self-fulfilling prophecy:  the church is afraid of the antichrist coming with a one-world government and mark of the beast buy/sell system; while the NWO is actually trying to setup such a system because that is what they believe will achieve their goals - and the highest leaders are actually using the fear of such a system as an "endgame" plan. 
- most likely Satan has orchestrated it on both sides: get the NWO to setup a "mark of the beast" system, while twist the teaching of the church to spread fear of the end-times "mark of the beast" system.

And of course I am open to the possibility that I am deceived about all of the above  :winkgrin:

No matter how you cut it, there are multiple layers of deception going on here that would take years of study to untangle.  And of course Satan is behind it all, he is the "father of lies" (John 8:44).

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world

Have you been deceived lately?  :bigGrin:

bobf

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Re: "too late" mentallity
« Reply #12 on: March 20, 2009, 05:57:59 PM »
Soon after coming to believe that God will save all mankind I happened to reread this pasage about healing on the Sabbath and it came to my mind that people who say it's "too late after death" are reenacting the "unlawful to heal on the Sabbath" mentality.  They are saying it is unlawful for God to heal on a certain day, the day when believers have entered God's Rest in the Kingdom of God.  Healing stops.

  • Matthew 12:10 And, behold, there was a man which had his hand withered. And they asked him, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath days? that they might accuse him. 11 And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out? 12 How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.

But healing does not stop.

  • Revelation 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.


Paul Hazelwood

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Re: "too late" mentallity
« Reply #13 on: March 20, 2009, 05:58:48 PM »

Have you been deceived lately?  :bigGrin:


Yes, but by the time I realized it, it was too late, sucks for me.

IceDash

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Re: "too late" mentallity
« Reply #14 on: March 20, 2009, 06:01:51 PM »

Have you been deceived lately?  :bigGrin:


Yes, but by the time I realized it, it was too late, sucks for me.

I think we all do.

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Re: "too late" mentallity
« Reply #15 on: March 20, 2009, 06:17:12 PM »
Have you been deceived lately?  :bigGrin:

Nope. Actually I'm going to deceive tommorow. Gotta fill out a tax form  :laughing7:
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

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Re: "too late" mentallity
« Reply #16 on: March 20, 2009, 06:26:06 PM »
I think the whole NWO thing is another layer of deception.  Not that I don't think there is a NWO... but its all based on lies and layers and layers of deception.
<snip>
I agree with (most of) your post.
If you look at all kinds of rituals and symbols in NWO you will notice many are occult.
On itself that doesn't prove satan or even God exists. But I think (several) people inside of the NWO have roots in the occult. Maybe because they are pagans/satanists/owl worshippers perhaps they just find it cool to use such symbols.

For me its a fact that NWO is being build. Just look at history. Always war and strife to get more and more control. So why not just control over the whole planet.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline Molly

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Re: "too late" mentallity
« Reply #17 on: March 20, 2009, 06:31:03 PM »
Quote
No matter how you cut it, there are multiple layers of deception going on here that would take years of study to untangle.  And of course Satan is behind it all, he is the "father of lies" (John 8:44).

 :thumbsup:


9Then Jesus asked him, "What is your name?"

   "My name is Legion," he replied, "for we are many." 10And he begged Jesus again and again not to send them out of the area.


--Mark 5

Offline legoman

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Re: "too late" mentallity
« Reply #18 on: March 20, 2009, 06:47:53 PM »
I think the whole NWO thing is another layer of deception.  Not that I don't think there is a NWO... but its all based on lies and layers and layers of deception.
<snip>
I agree with (most of) your post.
If you look at all kinds of rituals and symbols in NWO you will notice many are occult.
On itself that doesn't prove satan or even God exists. But I think (several) people inside of the NWO have roots in the occult. Maybe because they are pagans/satanists/owl worshippers perhaps they just find it cool to use such symbols.

For me its a fact that NWO is being build. Just look at history. Always war and strife to get more and more control. So why not just control over the whole planet.

Agreed.  I see the NWO the same way - there is evidence everywhere.

They definitely use many occult symbols and rituals.  That doesn't mean what they believe is true, but that they believe it to be true.

Deceived, just like the rest of us.


NinjaWizards777

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Re: "too late" mentallity
« Reply #19 on: March 22, 2009, 12:23:48 AM »
Soon after coming to believe that God will save all mankind I happened to reread this pasage about healing on the Sabbath and it came to my mind that people who say it's "too late after death" are reenacting the "unlawful to heal on the Sabbath" mentality.  They are saying it is unlawful for God to heal on a certain day, the day when believers have entered God's Rest in the Kingdom of God.  Healing stops.

  • Matthew 12:10 And, behold, there was a man which had his hand withered. And they asked him, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath days? that they might accuse him. 11 And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out? 12 How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.

But healing does not stop.

  • Revelation 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.



thats a cool way of looking at it