Author Topic: "The So-Called Universalist Texts" - (Iron Sharpens Iron)  (Read 1976 times)

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Offline jabcat

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"The So-Called Universalist Texts" - (Iron Sharpens Iron)
« on: January 21, 2010, 02:33:54 AM »
from http://www.biblicaluniversalism.com/TentmakerMinistry.htm  

Quote - Gary Amirault is the founder of TENTMAKER MINISTRIES, an extensive, sophisticated ministry dedicated to spreading the message of universal salvation.   He recently saw my books on the Internet and requested review copies.   I accommodated him.  

      I also informed him that I believe that the Scriptures reveal a final division of mankind.   All persons will be either eternally saved or lost.   Amirault sent me the following challenge:  

For each statement below declare out loud whether YOU PERSONALLY believe the statement is True or False. It is important that you do it verbally, not just in your mind. Or perhaps print it out and then circle the T or F.  

Jesus Christ is the Son of God. (John 1:1) T or F
  

He was crucified, was buried and rose again on the third day. (Acts 2:24; 4:10) T or F
  

Jesus Christ's blood was shed for the remission of sins. (Matt. 28:9) T or F
  

"The Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world." (1 John 4:14) T or F
  

Jesus is "the Christ, the Savior of the world." (John 4:42) T or F
  

"This is good and acceptable in the sight of our God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus: Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time." (1 Tim. 2:3-6, KJV) T or F"  

Etc.  

      Amazingly this list continues with additional 69 of these so-called "universalistic" passages from both the Old and New Testaments. These texts either explicitly say or strongly imply that ALL PERSONS WILL BE SAVED!  

      According to Amirault, if you answer "True" to all the above Scriptures then you know that those who believe in Universal Salvation do so because they find Universal Salvation "plainly written in EVERY SINGLE ENGLISH TRANSLATION OF THE BIBLE."
 

      I am not so vain as to think that Tentmaker Ministries collated this elaborate list simply to refute my perspective of Biblical Inclusivism.   I suspect this suggested exercise is a type of brainwashing that Tentmaker Ministry uses to entrap mainline Christians into accepting Universal Salvation.
  

      Because of what I have written in my books and on my website www.evangelicalinclusivism.com about the so-called "universalistic" texts I am in a better position to respond to this type of propaganda than many other Christians are.   If you or any of your friends, relatives, or colleagues are intrigued by the possibility of a Universal Salvation, it might be useful to consider this further exchange with Gary Amirault:    
  

From: Neal Punt [ whenindoubt3@charter.net]
Sent: Friday, January 14, 2005 2:52 PM
To: Gary Amirault
Subject: RE: Biblical Universalism  

You asked me to reply, either verbally or in writing, with either   "true or false" as a response to questions you ask concerning a number of texts.   What you want me to admit is that those passages:

" speak of a certain-to-be-realized salvation as Calvinist
have consistently maintained and they do so in terms of
all persons as Arminians have always affirmed."  

In Posting # 2 at www.evangelicalinclusivism.com I fully and freely acknowledge this.
  

According to you this should end the matter for everyone who accepts the Word of God as the standard of truth. Thus you would claim to have proven that the Bible teaches absolute universalism.

That your methodology is faulty is demonstrated by the fact that I could list a goodly number of parallel passages that say: "There is no one righteous, not even one," such as Romans 3:9-18.  The number of such passages that could be assembled from both the Old and New Testament, you will admit, would be impressive.    I could ask you to answer "true or false" to each of those passages and you would have to respond "true" to each one of them.  

I then say, "those passages are speaking of all human beings" True or False?   "True" you say.
  

I then conclude "Jesus" is a "descendant of the woman" and "of the seed of David" and is therefore a human being.    The unavoidable conclusion is: "Jesus has sinned and has come short of the glory of God."

  

The only truthful way out of the dilemma I have placed you in is to acknowledge that the texts that you asked me to respond to with a "true or false" answer are not absolute universals.   Because they are part and parcel of the entire Bible you have no right to ask me or anyone else to respond with a   "true" or "false" answer when those text are viewed in isolation of the entire context of the Scriptures.   As I point out and clearly say in Postings # 4, entitled "All Are . . . Some Are Not," those texts are like fish out of water, having no sustainable life of their own when they are removed from the only environment in which they can continue to live.
  

It is sad to see that you have aligned yourself with the long but exceedingly thin line of those who accept the false claim of absolute universalism that stretches way back to a few years even before Origen.   This long thin line has always been outside the mainline community of Christians.   Absolute universalism will not be and never should be accepted by mainline Christianity because, no matter what they considered the nature of their plight to be, mainline Christian thought has never doubted that there are those who "shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, when he comes."
  
The Bible does not tell us how many will suffer such an awesome fate.  For all I know it may be as few as one, two or three such persons.  What I do know is that the Bible teaches, and therefore what mainline Christian thought has always confessed is, that some will hear the Judge's words "depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."  
 
You may feel free to quote anything I send to you by email and I trust you give me the right to do the same with your emails.    There is no need to do theology in secret.
  

With My Best Wishes,    Neal  whenindoubt3@charter.net

http://www.biblicaluniversalism.com/TentmakerMinistry.htm


Responses?
« Last Edit: January 21, 2010, 02:43:52 AM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

HartleyDamboiseII

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Re: "The So-Called Universalist Texts" - (Iron Sharpens Iron)
« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2010, 02:42:49 AM »
WoW, I now believe in Hell again... :Shoot:

Offline jabcat

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Re: "The So-Called Universalist Texts" - (Iron Sharpens Iron)
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2010, 02:47:18 AM »
WoW, I now believe in Hell again... :Shoot:

Things like this can make us look more closely at what we believe, why, and "examine ourselves" a bit sometimes.  Not so for you with this one Lee?   :Sparkletooth:
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline jabcat

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Re: "The So-Called Universalist Texts" - (Iron Sharpens Iron)
« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2010, 03:54:27 AM »
...although, on a careful reading, some of this guy's arguments do appear rather weak    :mblush:
« Last Edit: January 21, 2010, 03:57:45 AM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Lupac

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Re: "The So-Called Universalist Texts" - (Iron Sharpens Iron)
« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2010, 04:00:26 AM »
I really wish you hadn't posted that...

Offline jabcat

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Re: "The So-Called Universalist Texts" - (Iron Sharpens Iron)
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2010, 04:01:01 AM »
I really wish you hadn't posted that...

why not lupac...though you might not necessarily want to go out and feed constantly on this stuff, you must know that many (most) think this way...would you suggest we never are exposed to it?  I personally think that's impossible  :dontknow:  I guess it could be moved to the member's lounge or something...but then it could be seen there too, just not by newbies...i didn't realize it would be problematic...things are often posted so people can refute, think about, discuss, sharpen our thoughts and beliefs...such as many things Gary posts for our rebuttal... :dontknow:...don't mean to cause you problems
« Last Edit: January 21, 2010, 04:07:58 AM by jabcat »
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline jabcat

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Re: "The So-Called Universalist Texts" - (Iron Sharpens Iron)
« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2010, 04:15:04 AM »
Sorry, let me know if you need me to remove it and I will...maybe it's not "whatever things are good, think on these things"... I do know Gary is exposed to a lot of things he takes a stand against...maybe everyone doesn't need to know.  Let me know.
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: "The So-Called Universalist Texts" - (Iron Sharpens Iron)
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2010, 04:15:14 AM »
The guy is right in part, a list of questions patterned to be answered a certain way does not actually prove anything and in fact he is correct that you can load the deck to influence a certain outcome to just about anything you want.   His examples are correct,  if ALL means ALL in every single case, then did Jesus sin, if not, then ALL does not apply to Jesus.  

However where the guys argument is weak is that the result of a poor argument still does not render a certain biblical view point invalid.   Gary is not wrong simply because the guy shot down the intent of the list of questions.   He has proven that it is an ineffective tool to define truth.  

As I often tell my son, just because you can argue better than someone else does not mean you are correct, it only means you have exploited another persons weakness to further convince yourself or others that you are correct.



« Last Edit: January 21, 2010, 04:20:06 AM by Paul Hazelwood »

Paul Hazelwood

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Re: "The So-Called Universalist Texts" - (Iron Sharpens Iron)
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2010, 04:16:27 AM »
Sorry, let me know if you need me to remove it and I will...maybe it's not "whatever things are good, think on these things"... I do know Gary is exposed to a lot of things he takes a stand against...maybe everyone doesn't need to know.  Let me know.


Doesn't bother me.  We should accept challenges to what we think.

Offline jabcat

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Re: "The So-Called Universalist Texts" - (Iron Sharpens Iron)
« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2010, 04:19:57 AM »
That's what I thought, and I would think there's plenty of people here who could show the truth of this and make it clear what the scriptures really say....but I also don't want to hurt anyone's faith.
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Lupac

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Re: "The So-Called Universalist Texts" - (Iron Sharpens Iron)
« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2010, 04:26:36 AM »
Oh, it's fine. That was just a reaction of mine...

Offline jabcat

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Re: "The So-Called Universalist Texts" - (Iron Sharpens Iron)
« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2010, 04:28:03 AM »
I'm going to be gone for a few minutes...if there are still issues with this thread when I get back, I'll move it to the holding bin for further review - Martin or any of the other mods, if you want to move it to the holding bin go right ahead...be back in 30-45 minutes :thumbsup:
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

Offline jabcat

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Re: "The So-Called Universalist Texts" - (Iron Sharpens Iron)
« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2010, 05:23:35 AM »
maybe it's best to just remove this
Neither should there be vulgar speech, foolish talk, or coarse jesting--all of which are out of character--but rather thanksgiving.  Eph. 5:4  **  Saved 1John 3.2, Eph. 2:8, John 1:12 - Being saved 2Cor. 4:16 2Peter 3:18 - Will be saved 1Peter 1:5 Romans 8:23

martincisneros

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Re: "The So-Called Universalist Texts" - (Iron Sharpens Iron)
« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2010, 12:50:46 AM »
 :search: So, supposedly the message of the Universal Restoration is the only message that cookie cuts from the Scriptures all of the available, relevant passages. :shakepoint: There's not to be found a book in the entirety of a seminary or a Bible bookstore on a single other Biblical topic that has selectively quoted the Bible for the foundations of it's thesis. :eek: :omg: :Yeahright: :goodone:

Offline reFORMer

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Re: "The So-Called Universalist Texts" - (Iron Sharpens Iron)
« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2010, 02:43:25 AM »
I think it was Belgium where a test of who had the least allergies revealed those who were exposed to barn dust between the ages of 3 or 4 through, was it 11 or 13?  I hope I'm forgiven for not being more precise.  Maybe one of you know the details better and can correct this.

My point is, we need to be exposed in a real way to alternative ideas and contesting arguments.  This builds strength in the truth, purging us of dross.  There's often much difference between what appears to be right and secure and something tested and proved through much trial to be reliable.  The loss of public debate, particularly concerning theological views, is to a large extent to be blamed for a populace like beasts following one another into the slaughter house.  Peter speaks of those who, "...as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption..." (2 Pet 2:12, AV)

We need the relations not only of friends, but of enemies.  I have said to certain ones in my life that I am honored to be able to count them as my enemy.  Speaking of those with a condemned mind Jude says, "...those who isolate themselves, soulish, not having the spirit" (vs.19, CLT)

Jesus' spoken ministry had much we could call apologetics about it.  He gave good answers and challenges to His detractors.  We are anointed to do the same.  It is said of those against the proclamation of the kingdom of God by Stephen, "...they were not strong enough to withstand the wisdom and the spirit with which he spoke. (Ac 6:10, CLT)  Something similar was said of Apollos (cf., Ac 18:24-28.)  For His own who are brought before authorities on account of His name, Jesus promised, "I will be giving you a mouth and wisdom, which all those opposing you shall not be able to withstand or contradict." (Lk 21:15, CLT)
« Last Edit: January 22, 2010, 02:46:51 AM by reFORMer »
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!