Author Topic: "...because it has good results."  (Read 1559 times)

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Offline reFORMer

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"...because it has good results."
« on: September 12, 2012, 07:15:44 AM »
One Sunday Marion and myself were up and ready but just didn't feel like meeting with those at a little country Church we have a habit of attending.  I had a vision of a waterfall with alternating straight and braiding streams falling over an artificially straight edge.  A family from there called us and asked if we wanted to go to a park some miles from here for a picnic, rather than our usual.  When we got there, right next to the road, there was the waterfall I had seen.

The father of that family a few days ago at his house explained how so many of the people worldwide who believe in Jesus do so because of missionaries who went out preaching the gospel because they didn't want the people to go to hell.  This was presented as a "proof," or at least something good regarding permanent ceaseless torture.

Any good answers to this idea?
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: "...because it has good results."
« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2012, 09:18:29 AM »
Salvation depends on the traveling budget of preachers?

The fact that many (preachers) believe people are saved from hell by Christian teachings is no proof God agrees with that.


"For everyone to whom much is given, of him shall much be required." -- Luke 12:48
Romans 5:13 for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law.

Those two verses combined teach that teaching the Gospel is the most cruel thing that can be done, if ET is true.
Before the missionaries arrived those people didn't know the law so it wasn't used against them. They knew nothing so nothing was required of them.
But as soon the preacher opened his mouth that changed. By listening most became predestined to hell.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline lomarah

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Re: "...because it has good results."
« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2012, 10:47:41 AM »
Here's what I got out of your dream: the artificial straight edge speaks to me of a manmade doctrine rather than the true organic Spirit filled Word. Nevertheless, some living water gets to flow from it anyhow since if you take away the artificial edge there is still the organic underneath. (Christ is Lord, hence the "results".) I'm not sure about the water being straight and braided.

As for results, how many who believe in hell doctrine produce the fruit of the Spirit and are filled with the love that Jesus said people would know us by? I know very, very few. It is hard to be something different than what you worship.
From Him and through Him and to Him are all things.

Offline WhiteWings

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Re: "...because it has good results."
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2012, 11:28:09 AM »
Here's what I got out of your dream: the artificial straight edge speaks to me of a manmade doctrine rather than the true organic Spirit filled Word.
Or just the opposite :-)
God's word/teaching is  a straight line. It never changes.
Mademade stuff flows in every direction (many denominations)
It moves like a snake over a pole.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Offline lomarah

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Re: "...because it has good results."
« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2012, 01:13:08 PM »
But look at what reFORMer said about it - artificial. To me that speaks of something manmade.
 
I also thought of what the straight vs braided waters could mean: if by braided you meant that it is flowing in a stream as though the artificial straight edge wasn't there then that could signify those who first hear the Word under the guise of eternal hellfire but through their relationship with Christ and the Father come to the knowledge of the truth. Thus, even though they came to their relationship with Christ under an artificial doctrine, they chose to learn by the Spirit so their stream now flows without the manmade doctrine underneath. Of course this all relies on my initial interpretation being correct lol.
From Him and through Him and to Him are all things.

Offline shawn

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Re: "...because it has good results."
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2012, 07:47:30 PM »
Lets roll with that word Lomarah...artificial.  When we bring the gospel to the world, what are we trying to accomplish?  If we scare people into having a fear experience that results in relieving the fear we have created...what would you call that?  I would call it artificial.  So, we instill fear, then provide a way for a human being to relieve that fear..and call that good?  Of course there will be people looking for relief from you the fear you just put into their hearts.  But, is that what is meant by spreading the gospel?  What is the good news?  That Christ came to save us from God?  Does that bring about relationship?  Can people love God because he holds their feet over a flame?  Worship me or burn forever?  What kind of message are we sending to people about the nature of God?  A false message...through an artificial fear experience.  I see no good from preaching hell.

The fear amongst some believers is that if you don't scare people they will have no motivation to turn their will and their lives over to God.  I can tell you from experience this is a false fear.  And if you do have an individual who will only come to the Cross based upon fear of hell...will the coming produce relationship?  I don't believe this can be manipulated.

I apologize for always going to addiction...I know I can be a bit monotonous but it's what I know.  I deal with people...guilt, shame, depression, anxiety, psychosis, addiction, prison, sin, broken relationships, vice is what they know.  They understand weeping and gnashing of teeth.  When I speak to them about spiritual bankruptcy...you can hear the agreement...the understanding of what I mean before I define it.  Many who I treat want to be free...want a new way of life...they want joy, peace, serenity, and spiritual fullfillment.  I don't have to scare these people with hellfire...they have been living in hellfire.  Many ache for a relationship with their Creator.  They just don't know how to go about finding it.  That is when the field is fertile and ready to accept the planted seed.  That is not an artificial experience created by fear.  It's a real experience created by years of convincing themselves that they are not God.


Offline lomarah

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Re: "...because it has good results."
« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2012, 11:30:29 PM »
 :thumbsup:
I think we've all been there - spiritual bankruptcy. Not a fun place to be for sure. But sometimes we won't look up til we hit rock bottom for some reason...
From Him and through Him and to Him are all things.

Offline sheila

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Re: "...because it has good results."
« Reply #7 on: September 12, 2012, 11:44:41 PM »
well...there are dragon flood waters spewed out to cause the woman to be washed away of the flood,too.  but the earth helps the woman

  and opens it mouth and swallows them up...because one of the things the earth can not bear..is a woman that is married but unloved

Offline sheila

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Re: "...because it has good results."
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2012, 12:18:35 AM »
something else..a scripture aabout even the wages of a harlot being dedicated to the Lord.  Made me think of Judas wages for spiritual harlotry

  being used to buy the potter's field....blood money/the cup of abominations.

   Phillipians 1;17


Offline reFORMer

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Re: "...because it has good results."
« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2012, 05:37:41 AM »
The ancient Israelites, sacrificing their own children to Moloch and Baal, believed something like spreading their ashes on the fields made them fertile.  And, voila! their crops were abundant.  This didn't make their faith and practice right.

The basic gospel is often barely mentioned and buried in the midst of a froth of other words.  We are told to ask God into a place He already occupies.  Instead, "The word is nigh thee, even in thy heart and mouth."  We are told to believe the ultimate evil threatens from the very God we're supposed to embrace.  Instead, He's, "The living God, Who is the Savior of all mankind, specially those that believe."  We are told to find a good Bible believing church.  How is a novice in the faith supposed to accomplish that?  Years later many of us are still looking!
I went to church; but, the Church wasn't on the program!  JESUS WANTS HIS BODY BACK!!  MEET WITHOUT HUMAN HEADSHIP!!!